[ATG]

As a self-made atheist, I suggest we discuss what the contemporary world would look like without too gigantic religions: Christianty and Islam. Both came from the middle east and, naturally, the wide acceptance of Islam by the neighboring countries around Persian Gulf was sort of logical. But it still puzzles me how the whole Europe (and then the U.S. -- oh yeah baby!) had come to the acceptance of Christianity. How did the whole continent fall for those local Israeli myths??

Here is my definition of religion (or religious writing):

Religion is a subtance that consists of ink poured over paper and intended to treat unsubstantiated fear and anxiety associated with future and death. Prolonged use results in periods of perceived euphoria and delusions. In extreme cases, readers may collectively resort to violence. Young and undeveloped brains are particularly susceptible to permanent damage. Use with extreme caution because of high incidence of flashbacks and a risk of an irreversible loss of connection with real World. Causes severe dependence and difficulties in withdrawal comparable to opiates

[fire-n-ice]

the same way you fall for the atheist's myth.

[ATG]

bravo!

So, all Europeans and other people who lived before Christ's birth went straight to hell because they did not follow the new testament?

[dr335is]

I think I will be an observer on this one...not much into that stuff.
But I know who will jump in...in about an hour and a half

[ATG]

With the "hard facts" as always...

Bring it on, baby!

[ATG]

Here is an idea for all of you die hard plaintiff lawyers: let's sue Israel for 2000 years of pain, suffering, emotional distress, tripple personality disorder, and, most importantly, millions of people killed, maimed, and tortured in the name of the Holy Grail.

[ATG]

But, let me tell you in advance, that the merits of that lawsuit will never be considered for lack of standing. Look here:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/06/14/scotus.pledge/

[FirstClass]

Originally Posted by fire-n-ice

the same way you fall for the atheist's myth.

+1

Originally Posted by ATG

So, all Europeans and other people who lived before Christ's birth went straight to hell because they did not follow the new testament?

You need to read up on your theology. That assumption is entirely wrong.

Well, if you add up all the people who believe in God, it comes out to something like 2/3rds of the world. That's just people who believe in God, other religions take up the rest and atheism is about 2.3% of the world. So you're definitely in the minority with that view.

[- Paul -]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_God_Delusion

Everyone should read this - believers and non-believers

[742]

Originally Posted by ATG

As a self-made atheist, I suggest we discuss what the contemporary world would look like without too gigantic religions: Christianty and Islam. Both came from the middle east and, naturally, the wide acceptance of Islam by the neighboring countries around Persian Gulf was sort of logical. But it still puzzles me how the whole Europe (and then the U.S. -- oh yeah baby!) had come to the acceptance of Christianity. How did the whole continent fall for those local Israeli myths??

Religion and politics are historically two sides of the same coin. This is why Kings and Queens are crowned by the church. In this case Rome, in its death throes, inserted Christianity into Europe.

And consider that but for the turn of a few battles Western Europe would still be Catholic. Or Spain Muslim. Or Ireland…who knows.

And since you are trying to stir the pot, here is another ingredient. One of the least likely places to find atheists, agnostics and free thinkers in general is prison.

[- Paul -]

Originally Posted by 742

. One of the least likely places to find atheists, agnostics and free thinkers in general is prison.

Or anyone about to die

[FirstClass]

Originally Posted by 1stnewcar

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_God_Delusion
Everyone should read this - believers and non-believers

lol, 1 of his 4 main points is an argumentum ad populum and one of the other 3 is highly debatable and opinionated. The other 2 are common sense and don't do anything to make God less "believable".

[ATG]

Originally Posted by FirstClass

Well, if you add up all the people who believe in God, it comes out to something like 2/3rds of the world. That's just people who believe in God, other religions take up the rest and atheism is about 2.3% of the world. So you're definitely in the minority with that view.

This, of course, is not an argument ad populum.

[FirstClass]

Originally Posted by ATG

This, of course, is not an argument ad populum.

touche

OK I'll tell you the real reason God must exist. Intelligent design is the only possible way that life came about. I'm not buying that I was nothing more than a puddle of amino acids however many million years ago.

[- Paul -]

Originally Posted by FirstClass

lol, 1 of his 4 main points is an argumentum ad populum and one of the other 3 is highly debatable and opinionated. The other 2 are common sense and don't do anything to make God less "believable".

Whether you believe or not or whether you listen to his arguments are personal choices and cannot ever be debated. EDIT to a successful outcome.

The good bit in the book is the description of religion etc - how it started, what happened etc.

[ATG]

Originally Posted by 742

One of the least likely places to find atheists, agnostics and free thinkers in general is prison.

Good point. Fear and religion go hand in hand. People are so afraid to recognize that they are alone in their own universe and there is no kind and caring grandfather to meet them in the paradise ... What amazes me the most is that some people are more sympathetic to a "religious" felon a la Don Corleone rather than a law abiding atheist.

[FirstClass]

Originally Posted by 1stnewcar

Whether you believe or not or whether you listen to his arguments are personal choices and cannot ever be debated.

I did listen and I'm not debating that. I'm debating the validity of his points. I agree with 2, disagree with one, and one has no basis in fact.

[ATG]

Originally Posted by FirstClass

touche

OK I'll tell you the real reason God must exist. Intelligent design is the only possible way that life came about. I'm not buying that I was nothing more than a puddle of amino acids however many million years ago.

Well, I agree with you that you were not a puddle of amino acids many million years ago. You were that puddle less than 100 years ago and will eventually go back to that state again (as will I and all other people on earth). There are things we cannot explain and will never be able to. Intelligent Design is a creation of human ego and reluctance to recognzie that we are no better than any animal, tree, or a piece of soil. Who designed God? Another onmi-potent architect or a morbid human brain? Humans are both "blessed" and "cursed" with having abstract mentality, which plays tricks on us all the time. In this sense, human kind is a strange experiment of nature.

[bmw0perat0r]

In time all will know the truth, that I am certain of.

The word Christian is so diluted these days. Who among these people believe Christ is their Lord and Savior? What is it to be Christian? These are the questions I hear most.

Flame me if you wish, but I am a born again Christian - that means I have accepted Christ as my savior, that He died for my sins and that He was raised from the dead and will return again. I don't just believe, I know it to be true. "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" Am I perfect? no. Am I a sinner? definitly. Can I do good works to cover my sins? no. How then am I saved? By the blood of Christ who died for all of us that we should have ever lasting life. Why would He do such a thing? Because He first loved us.

I don't care what people say, the Bible is the living word of God. I would hope that more would come to Christ, but I can't make you or anyone else - All are saved by the grace of God and not by the works of man. There's nothing I could do to save myself from what I deserve, only Christ Jesus can - and He deserves all the glory. Do I struggle with sin everyday? You bet I do.

Do I take offense to your post and that you're an athiest, no. But I hope that one day you understand what I know to be true. It is up to you to accept Him or not.

I'm a regular guy, trying to make my way in the world...i'm no better than anyone else. If you ever hear a Christian judge you or show contempt for you...they are in the wrong. I am not judging you, you are free to believe what you will. It is your choice and I have nothing against you.

guess that was long, but its my 2 cents in this thread.

[FirstClass]

Originally Posted by ATG

Who designed God? Another onmi-potent architect or a morbid human brain?

That's just the thing, science can't explain the source of the universe, just as religion can't explain the source of God. That argument gets you no closer to advancing your point.

[- Paul -]

There wil be no winners in the argument about A God vs Science - You believe in one or the other or become agnostic!

[ATG]

Originally Posted by bmw0perat0r

In time all will know the truth, that I am certain of.

The word Christian is so diluted these days. Who among these people believe Christ is their Lord and Savior? What is it to be Christian? These are the questions I hear most.

Flame me if you wish, but I am a born again Christian - that means I have accepted Christ as my savior, that He died for my sins and that He was raised from the dead and will return again. I don't just believe, I know it to be true. "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" Am I perfect? no. Am I a sinner? definitly. Can I do good works to cover my sins? no. How then am I saved? By the blood of Christ who died for all of us that we should have ever lasting life. Why would He do such a thing? Because He first loved us.

I don't care what people say, the Bible is the living word of God. I would hope that more would come to Christ, but I can't make you or anyone else - All are saved by the grace of God and not by the works of man. There's nothing I could do to save myself from what I deserve, only Christ Jesus can - and He deserves all the glory. Do I struggle with sin everyday? You bet I do.

Do I take offense to your post and that you're an athiest, no. But I hope that one day you understand what I know to be true. It is up to you to accept Him or not.

I'm a regular guy, trying to make my way in the world...i'm no better than anyone else. If you ever hear a Christian judge you or show contempt for you...they are in the wrong. I am not judging you, you are free to believe what you will. It is your choice and I have nothing against you.

guess that was long, but its my 2 cents in this thread.

I like your sincerety and I wish every Christian would be as peaceful as you are. Whatever the labels are, if all people learn to accept all other different people around them there will be "paradise" on earth. This is so easy!!! But, ego, greed, and fear always stand in the way.