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      08-21-2007, 06:29 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hks786 View Post
Well, if I was to respond to that I would firstly ask who is Jesus? I have shown at great length that he is not the Son of God. Now, even if he was the Son of God, it would be theologically impossible for him to die for the sins of the world. I feel there are just far too many impossiblities and unanswered questions like in the above post by me...
But wasn't it a such a lovely, romantic and sad story? In all honesty though, Jesus died only for the right to free speach.
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      08-21-2007, 07:08 PM   #24
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I guess we are not getting to teh meaning of FAITH. IT is a beleif without proof, despite what others may say, what things may look like.

Do you beleive that you know everything about all the rules that Allah has given? If so, then you presume yourself a god and equal with him.

And now we're back to who created god . . . again, a stretch that my mind can't make me understand, but my heart and FAITH tell me I need not understand to bear witness to God's love and saving grace.
But friend, does faith need to be based on nothing? Okay we cant see God, but that does not mean our beliefs about who God is have to be based on nothing.

No, I dont know everything about Allah. BUT I know MORE than enough. Allah has never made any statements that make me doubt him being God. In Islam, the concept of God is very simple. There is one, absolute, all-powerfull God called Allah. He has no partners or sons etc.
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      08-21-2007, 07:15 PM   #25
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I have studied the Bible chapeter by chapter, verse by verse, cover to cover. Not just a chapter here and there. Also using the Manuscripts that the English was translated from in Greek and Hebrew. I have a little bit of different understanding of the Bible than most English translation only readers. I will provide some information here along with versus to back it up.

Jesus was the pure slain Lamb. The son of God. John 14:9 He that has seen ME hath seen the Father. (Jesus speaking). Yes he did die as a blood sacrifice for all men, he went back to all that had died before and offered salvaion and future salvation to thoes not dead or born yet by repentence. For the question about about God is God and cant be Jesus. God has a spirit just like our flesh body have a spirit. You have to understand the 3 earth ages. Jeremiah 1:4 Before i formed thee in the belly I knew thee. You can study Ephesians 1:4&5, 1 Peter 1:20 Psalms 90:1&2, Titus, John. We lived in bodys of light with our spirit for millions of years as we will again, before Satans pridefull downfall. Since 1/3 of Gods children chose to follow Satan (Ezekiel 28: God loved Satan and made him the full pattern, before he became pridefull and turned on God) who was trying to take the mercy seat from God, God had to put our spirit in a flesh body to sort out who would (as a second chance) follow Him or Satan.(Thoes that wont follow the Father and chose to follow Satan will go into the lake of fire and the rest will again go back into our light bodys for eternity) Genesis 6:6 It grieved God that he made (flesh)man on the Earth. Satan did not appear in the garden at the creation of Adam and Eve (read Genesis 1:26, 6th day creation, Adam and Eve were 8th day creation, Genesis 2:7) from nowhere, we were in a perfect age with "Freewill". God will not make his children love him because that therefore would not be love. As far as a comment that Jesus did not exist. Psalms 22 was written 1000 years before Jesus walked the earth and the exact events happend as was written, check your Calendar, its was not changed BC/AD 2000 years ago for someone that did not exist.
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      08-21-2007, 07:33 PM   #26
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Too many GODS...........I'm confused.
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      08-21-2007, 07:55 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hav2flynow
The son of God
I feel that noone is really addressing all my points. I have explained at length about how Jesus and God are separate entities and cannot be the same. I have also shown how metaphorically the Bible can speak and I showed how widely the term “Son of God” can be applied. According to the Hebrew language, even I can be the “son” of God.

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Originally Posted by hav2flynow
God has a spirit just like our flesh body have a spirit.
But how do we know this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hav2flynow
Yes he did die as a blood sacrifice for all men
Why was this sacrifice needed when the Bible clearly shows that people can be forgiven if they turn to God and repent?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hav2flynow
We lived in bodys of light with our spirit for millions of years as we will again, before Satans pridefull downfall. Since 1/3 of Gods children chose to follow Satan (Ezekiel 28: God loved Satan and made him the full pattern, before he became pridefull and turned on God) who was trying to take the mercy seat from God, God had to put our spirit in a flesh body to sort out who would (as a second chance) follow Him or Satan.(Thoes that wont follow the Father and chose to follow Satan will go into the lake of fire and the rest will again go back into our light bodys for eternity) Genesis 6:6 It grieved God that he made (flesh)man on the Earth. Satan did not appear in the garden at the creation of Adam and Eve (read Genesis 1:26, 6th day creation, Adam and Eve were 8th day creation, Genesis 2:7) from nowhere, we were in a perfect age with "Freewill". God will not make his children love him because that therefore would not be love.
Thanks bro, but I’m not sure this narration of events really answers my questions. Firstly, this is man’s word, not Gods. I’m sorry but the root of this problem goes way back to how the Bible was compiled. I’m not going to go into this since it is such a lengthy subject, BUT I cant see how any of this can be God’s word. Maybe parts of it are God’s word, but the fact is we cant be sure.

The fact is that thoughout the Bible we say that Paul and Jesus say different things etc. We see less of Jesus' original teachings as the Gospels progress etc. We see clear evidence that the 4 Gospels disagree when accounting the same events. We see the build up and heightening of Jesus' position from a Prophet of God to being God himself. etc.

What I’m trying to say is that I have proved beyond doubt that Jesus cannot be the actual Son of God. I have also shown a few arguments as to why Jesus dying for us is completely illogical. I think I will now go on to show from the BIBLE why it is theologically impossible for Jesus to die for us. I’ll post it up tomorrow. It’s nearly 2am here.
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      08-22-2007, 08:16 AM   #28
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i've been a lurker in these forums because i love BMWs but after reading this i had to register and respond.

first things first, i would not believe the crap you read on the internet that lists discrepancies in the 4 gospels as contradictions. their arguments are petty. it's like saying if 2 witnesses of the same crime said described the entire event the same way, with the only exception of the color of the suspect's shoes, you would claim that they are liars? the contradictions on these websites are either petty or they are shallow and do not consider the true meaning of the message. i know of these "contradictions" but they do not cause the gospel message to implode on itself.

now to the topic of Jesus' death proving that He's not God. if you think it's illogical, then perhaps it is you who is limiting God. think about this, if a king chooses to wear a peasant's clothing and walk around his village w/o his entourage, does that make him less of a king? Jesus HUMBLED himself by making himself a man, and gave up his rights as God so that he may die, and we may live (read Phillipians 2). Does this make him less of a God then?

so about his death. don't forget that the bible says he came back to life. so he didn't stay dead, if he did, christianity would be busted. anyway, to answer the question about why Jesus had to die. the answer is in one word: JUSTICE. God is a just God, i think we can all agree on that. our sins ought to be punished, otherwise there is no justice. the reason why the Jews always slaughtered a lamb as an offering to God was to symbolize atonement. blood had to be shed and Jesus was the lamb of God. the shedding of his pure and holy blood was more than enough atonement for the whole world's sins, past, present and future. Jesus' sacrifice was the ultimate expression of God's love for us, his desire for us to have an intimate relationship with Him, and it is His grace poured out. God is a merciful God and a God of amazing grace. Mercy is not getting what we deserve, grace is getting what we don't deserve.

it's obvious God can do whatever he wants and no, Jesus didn't really have to die if God didn't care about justice, but Jesus' death was the only way for God to have justice and be merciful at the same time.
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      08-22-2007, 08:38 AM   #29
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So many people are spending so much energy trying to disprove something they don't believe in anyway which doesn't make sense. If I don't believe something I ignore it and move on to something else.

BTW Jesus was with God in the begining. Genesis 1:26-27 "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.

In John 1:1, Jesus the Son was revealed as the eternal WORD of God.
John 1

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God,.
3 All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In Him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
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      08-22-2007, 09:11 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by its ray den
first things first, i would not believe the crap you read on the internet that lists discrepancies in the 4 gospels as contradictions. their arguments are petty. it's like saying if 2 witnesses of the same crime said described the entire event the same way, with the only exception of the color of the suspect's shoes, you would claim that they are liars? the contradictions on these websites are either petty or they are shallow and do not consider the true meaning of the message. i know of these "contradictions" but they do not cause the gospel message to implode on itself.
That's great but maybe you should ask me what contradictions have been found. You can’t simply say you've seen ALL of them before asking me. I feel that you came across as quite rude in that respect. However, I will try dig these up as I have them printed off.

Also, if the gospel writers can make mistakes about basic facts, then what mistakes can they make when understanding the ACTUAL message of Jesus? The fact is that the Gospels are written by men and I wont even begin to go into how the NT was compiled...

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Originally Posted by its ray den
now to the topic of Jesus' death proving that He's not God. if you think it's illogical, then perhaps it is you who is limiting God. think about this, if a king chooses to wear a peasant's clothing and walk around his village w/o his entourage, does that make him less of a king? Jesus HUMBLED himself by making himself a man, and gave up his rights as God so that he may die, and we may live (read Phillipians 2). Does this make him less of a God then?
Just because God CAN do that, does that mean he would? I could ask "Could God make a rock so heavy he can’t move it?" or "Can God lie if he can do everything?" etc.

You say that Jesus HUMBLED himself to become a man, and give up his rights as God so that he may die. Okay. Let’s look at this logically. Firstly, if Jesus became a man, he becomes mortal and can no longer be God since God is immortal. Also, since Jesus is part of the trinity, how can part of the trinity be mortal and the rest of it is immortal if they are the same entity?

So, no, I don’t feel that I am incorrect when I say I am limiting God's ability. You then go on to say that God dies so that we could live. I feel that this again limits God's abilities. Does God need to die for us to live? No.

God makes it quite clear from the Bible that he sent Jesus to the Earth. He didn’t come to the world. These are separate things since God and Jesus are not one. I feel that no matter how many times people explain it, it will never become logical. Some people say that God NEEDED to become man and NEEDED to die for us. This wont work since God has no requirements. Others like you say that God HUMBLED himself/CHOSE to become man. I have already addressed this.

It's not just me that doesn’t understand this; there are millions of people who fail to understand it. However, my argument is not "if it can’t be understood, it’s not true". My argument is deeper than that and shows that it is illogical according to God's own parameters. Ah, and another point is that we cant simply respond to these points and say "God can do anything", "God doesn’t abide by our logic", "God works in mysteries", "God cant be understood". Etc...

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Originally Posted by its ray den
so about his death. don't forget that the bible says he came back to life. so he didn't stay dead, if he did, christianity would be busted. anyway, to answer the question about why Jesus had to die. the answer is in one word: JUSTICE. God is a just God, i think we can all agree on that. our sins ought to be punished, otherwise there is no justice. the reason why the Jews always slaughtered a lamb as an offering to God was to symbolize atonement. blood had to be shed and Jesus was the lamb of God. the shedding of his pure and holy blood was more than enough atonement for the whole world's sins, past, present and future. Jesus' sacrifice was the ultimate expression of God's love for us, his desire for us to have an intimate relationship with Him, and it is His grace poured out. God is a merciful God and a God of amazing grace. Mercy is not getting what we deserve, grace is getting what we don't deserve.

it's obvious God can do whatever he wants and no, Jesus didn't really have to die if God didn't care about justice, but Jesus' death was the only way for God to have justice and be merciful at the same time.
I’m sorry but as soon as you say Jesus “Had” to do anything, your argument fails from my point of view. The reason is that God has no requirements. Okay, but let’s look at it anyway…

You say that God “had” to die for Justice. You then say that our sins “ought” to be punished. But do they need to be punished? After all, God created us weak and imperfect. We are not like Angels, we have free-will to make our own choices based upon our limited knowledge. I feel that it is much easier to understand that God can forgive us when we ask for forgiveness. If there is a price for forgiveness, it is not forgiveness; it is a price.

Yes, Romans tells us that the wages of sin is death but also in the Bible Jesus told many parables (if they are his true words) that forgiveness can be gained by asking for it. Also, in the Lord’s Prayer it tells us to forgive people’s sins but it doesn’t say we must choose a price for this forgiveness. If we humans don’t need a price paid to us so that we can exercise forgiveness, why would God need it?

I could really go into this with huge amount of depth and I think I will do so. First, I'll need to find those printouts as I cant remember everything word for word...

Oh yeah, everything I say is with respect bro
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      08-22-2007, 09:14 AM   #31
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So many people are spending so much energy trying to disprove something they don't believe in anyway which doesn't make sense. If I don't believe something I ignore it and move on to something else.
Yes I may not believe in it, but can't I try find out why other brothers DO believe it? Also, it helps promote dialogue between faiths which I think with what is going on in the world today, is a GOOD thing.
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      08-22-2007, 09:39 AM   #32
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H,

Why is it so unfathamable that the bible is the word of God delivered/filtered by man, yet the word of Allah given to a single man in Muhamed is so much more beleivable? Faith, maybe?
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      08-22-2007, 09:46 AM   #33
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hks, i didn't mean to be rude with my response and i always speak with respect unless i am disrespected first (which i do not feel you have done, so we're cool).
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      08-22-2007, 10:51 AM   #34
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hks, i didn't mean to be rude with my response and i always speak with respect unless i am disrespected first (which i do not feel you have done, so we're cool).
Sorry I took it wrongly then. No worries bro.
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      08-22-2007, 10:52 AM   #35
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H,

Why is it so unfathamable that the bible is the word of God delivered/filtered by man, yet the word of Allah given to a single man in Muhamed is so much more beleivable? Faith, maybe?
Great question. I gotta do some stuff right now, but I'll respond to that soon
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      08-22-2007, 11:30 AM   #36
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ok hks, you've said a lot and i'm going to TRY to respond to everything, but i'm at work now and i'm not really concentrating on this. but here we go..

first, a note: i won't go into the topic of the trinity, or the validity of the bible in this post because those 2 issues are different beasts altogether. maybe another time. but for the sake of understanding what i have to say, let's just assume that the trinity is real and the bible is the true word of God.

i think one issue i see in your theology is that you lumping things together when they ought not to be lumped together. and maybe not lumping things together when they ought to be lumped together. i'm not sure if this is just a difference in teachings between our faiths, but my purpose isn't really to convince you that i'm right and you're wrong, but i hope that you at least UNDERSTAND.

for example, you are lumping forgiveness and atonement (Jesus' death on the cross) together and you shouldn't. i never made that connection in my first post. i agree with you that God can forgive anyone, any time, any place, as he has done before in the old testament. and you ask, just because he can, would he? no he doesn't have to. again in the old testament, we see many times God killed people for their transgressions against Him in a blink of an eye.

atonement is the compensation for wrong. this is justice - getting what you deserve. now, justice and mercy goes hand in hand, because mercy is NOT getting what you deserve. in the real world, a judge can either be fully merciful, or fully just but never both. sure we have seen a mix of mercy and justice, but it's usually a half and half deal, like a person being shown mercy by getting 2 years in jail instead of 5. if the guy got off scott-free (full mercy), i believe the victim would be crying injustice.

ok, so back to Jesus.

I stick to what i said when i said "Jesus had to die on the cross to atone for our sins". This is the only way God could be fully just, and fully merciful at the same time. But let me bring this into context. God did this because He WANTED us to be able to have an personal relationship with Him. Because of something God desired, Jesus had to die.

you might then ask, why can't we have a personal relationship with God without Jesus dying on the cross? well it's pretty simple. sin and holiness do not mix. if you put even a small speck of dirt in pure water, the water is no longer pure. there is no other reconciliation for this other than man being made pure by the blood of Jesus.

you can't have a blanket statement that God has no limitations because He is limited by His good nature and character. God CAN'T create a rock too big that He can't move it because then, He would not be all-powerful. God can't lie, cheat, and murder because then, God would not be a righteous God. These kinds of limitations are not theologically wrong because they are inline with who God is. so, someone HAD to die because our God is a just God and since God is also merciful, Jesus, also being God, was the one who died.

and why can't Jesus be man and God at the same time? reconsider my analogy in my first post regarding the king in peasant clothing. the king could very well submit himself to be beaten by his own officers if they think he is a mere peasant. it's all about whether he wants to exercise his rights as king or not. if he chooses not to, then the beatings will continue. Jesus chose not to exercise His rights and authority as God while he was on the cross because it was God's will. He never really lost his sovereignty or his power. here's another analogy. when i was really little i used like to race my dad all the time, and he would always let me win. did that mean i could really run faster than him?

please read phillipians 2:6-11.

i pray that you read my explanations with an open heart and not a defensive one.

and please, send your bible contradictions over. i'd like to see your best, most substantial ones if possible.
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      08-22-2007, 03:05 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by its ray den
first, a note: i won't go into the topic of the trinity, or the validity of the bible in this post because those 2 issues are different beasts altogether. maybe another time. but for the sake of understanding what i have to say, let's just assume that the trinity is real and the bible is the true word of God.
Okay, fair enough.

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Originally Posted by its ray den
for example, you are lumping forgiveness and atonement (Jesus' death on the cross) together and you shouldn't. i never made that connection in my first post. i agree with you that God can forgive anyone, any time, any place, as he has done before in the old testament. and you ask, just because he can, would he? no he doesn't have to. again in the old testament, we see many times God killed people for their transgressions against Him in a blink of an eye.
You speak about God killing people for their transgressions? Well, that is actually a lesson to other people. They can learn from other perished nations. Anyway, that’s off-topic because I’m trying to say that Jesus (AS) didn’t need to die for our sins. If people ask for forgiveness, Allah has the full power to forgive. I’m sure we both understand that those transgressors didn’t ask for forgiveness.

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Originally Posted by its ray den
atonement is the compensation for wrong. this is justice - getting what you deserve. now, justice and mercy goes hand in hand, because mercy is NOT getting what you deserve. in the real world, a judge can either be fully merciful, or fully just but never both. sure we have seen a mix of mercy and justice, but it's usually a half and half deal, like a person being shown mercy by getting 2 years in jail instead of 5. if the guy got off scott-free (full mercy), i believe the victim would be crying injustice.

I stick to what i said when i said "Jesus had to die on the cross to atone for our sins". This is the only way God could be fully just, and fully merciful at the same time. But let me bring this into context. God did this because He WANTED us to be able to have an personal relationship with Him. Because of something God desired, Jesus had to die.
I can see a flaw in this. God can give mercy and it can still be justice. Justice isn’t all about compensation. Justice is the right thing. Is it right for God to be able to just forgive us? Yes. The reason is that God created us weak AND He has a forgiving nature AND God is righteous and only does just things!

Also, I think God can equally create a personal relationship with me if I know that after realising I have sinned, I can turn back to God. Infact this is true. When I know I have sinned, when it actually hits me that I have sinned, I usually pray to Allah in a humble way and ask for forgiveness. He will know if I am being sincere or not because he is all-knowing, but Allah has told us that he will forgive us if we turn to him and ask for forgiveness. How is this not a “personal relationship”?

Quote:
Originally Posted by its ray den
you might then ask, why can't we have a personal relationship with God without Jesus dying on the cross? well it's pretty simple. sin and holiness do not mix. if you put even a small speck of dirt in pure water, the water is no longer pure. there is no other reconciliation for this other than man being made pure by the blood of Jesus.
I feel that this is your answer to what I have said above and I’m sorry to say that it is again illogical to me. You say that sin and holiness do not mix. I’m not saying anything of the sort. I am merely pointing out that God can create a personal relationship with us by forgiving us when we turn our face to him in prayer and humbly ask for forgiveness.

Also, let’s not forget that “Man was created weak”. We are not perfect and God understands that. I feel that Allah shows his great wisdom when he forgives us when we turn to him. The reason is that he understands his creation is not perfect. He also exercises forgiveness with this great wisdom.

Quote:
Originally Posted by its ray den
you can't have a blanket statement that God has no limitations because He is limited by His good nature and character.
I wouldn’t say that is a limitation. I would say that is a supreme advantage over everyone else who has free-will to sin. Angels have advantage over us because they have no free-will to be disobedient. However, we have free-will and we disobey Allah.

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Originally Posted by its ray den
God CAN'T create a rock too big that He can't move it because then, He would not be all-powerful.
This is my very point bro. How can God put himself in human form because that would create many limitations and would mean he is not all-powerful. However, I will save that for when we discuss the trinity.

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Originally Posted by its ray den
so, someone HAD to die because our God is a just God and since God is also merciful, Jesus, also being God, was the one who died.
I feel that this statement has already been addressed above when I spoke about God being just and merciful. However, I would also like to add that the Bible makes it clear that it is unjust for someone to be punished for someone else. The Bible says: “The soul that sins is the very soul that shall die”. That means that is theologically impossible for someone innocent to be punished/killed for someone else’s sins.

Also, Mark (10:45) says “Jesus was a ransom for the people and came to give his life for many”. I will explain what I mean when I say that the Gospel writers can make mistakes in theological ideas, not just small mistakes.

Firstly, a ransom has to be paid to someone. Who was Jesus paid to? Was he paid to the Devil? Well, some scholars actually said that. But we both agree that God is all-powerful, so how can God pay anything to the Devil? Again, it’s theologically impossible. However, Bible scholar, William Barclay tried to cover this up and say that the word “ransom” is not a good word to use. He said that we should use “act of love” instead. Well, I have already shown how God can create a personal relationship between us and Him, without this “act of love”. However, the most important point is that Mark used the word “ransom” and in no sense of the word can this be theologically possible!

Quote:
Originally Posted by its ray den
and why can't Jesus be man and God at the same time? reconsider my analogy in my first post regarding the king in peasant clothing.
I have briefly addressed this above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by its ray den
the king could very well submit himself to be beaten by his own officers if they think he is a mere peasant. it's all about whether he wants to exercise his rights as king or not.
How can God choose to exercise his power or not? He is ALL-powerful. That is not my ONLY argument though. God created parameters in which God Is immortal, requires nothing, and has no shortcomings. Mankind is the complete opposite of this. Now, you tell me that he done it out of love. You see that we are entering a circular motion of logic. Not to mention that I have already shown that it is theologically impossible.

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Originally Posted by its ray den
if he chooses not to, then the beatings will continue. Jesus chose not to exercise His rights and authority as God while he was on the cross because it was God's will.
Okay. Let’s think about this. If you say that everyone in the trinity is equal, then consider this. Since Jesus equates to 1/3 of the trinity, when he chooses to give up his power and authority, it means that God is only 2/3 powerful. You have already told me you don’t agree with this. We both established the fact that God is ALL-powerful, not 2/3 powerful.
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      08-22-2007, 03:06 PM   #38
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Sorry UncleWede, I forgot to reply to your post but I replied to its ray den. I'm kinda busy right now, but I'll have your reply later
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      08-22-2007, 03:19 PM   #39
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Where's the proof..........
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      08-22-2007, 04:22 PM   #40
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hks, to respond to everything you said would be repetitive since i don't know how else to express my beliefs in that area, so i'll just leave some of it alone.

i will respond to some new items that we can discuss.

your remarks on mark 10:45 is somewhat inaccurate due to the interpretation you chose to accept. this verse is does not mean God actually paid something to the devil. i agree with you that this wouldn't make sense theologically. the devil is under God and God has authority over the devil even in his disobedience. nothing belongs to the devil that God doesn't give to him.

these are not my words but it's something i found on the web that i think would make the verse more clear:

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Why is Jesus’ death called a ransom?
The Greek word translated “ransom” here means “payment to release someone from some kind of bondage—prison, debt, or slavery.” Those who have paid the ransom for Sudanese tribal people trapped in slavery have bought their freedom, doing for them what they could never have done for themselves.

This is what Jesus did by His death on the cross for the many. He paid what they could not pay in order to give them release—His death for the freedom of many from the prison and debt and slavery of sin.
note, it says we are slaves to sin, not the devil.

how does that change your understanding of the verse?

edit: here's another website for you to read. john piper is a well-known christian author with many books under his belt.

http://www.gracebaptist.ws/sermons/n...er/piper9.html

Last edited by its ray den; 08-22-2007 at 04:51 PM.
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      08-22-2007, 04:30 PM   #41
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oh hks, i've got a question for you. do you believe you deserve to be forgiven when you ask for it? if the answer is no, then what do you believe you deserve?
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      08-22-2007, 04:39 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by its ray den View Post
oh hks, i've got a question for you. do you believe you deserve to be forgiven when you ask for it? if the answer is no, then what do you believe you deserve?
he doesn't believe in GOD.....he believes in Allah.
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      08-22-2007, 04:46 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
H,

Why is it so unfathamable that the bible is the word of God delivered/filtered by man, yet the word of Allah given to a single man in Muhamed is so much more beleivable? Faith, maybe?
The reason why I find the word of the Bible hard to believe is because of two things:

1. The Bible is clearly the word of Man, not God. One could argue that Jesus' original teachings are in it. However, I feel that Paul has heavily influenced even the four Gospels since they come after Paul's writings. I dont want to go into this too much since we are first trying to answer the question "Did Jesus die for the sins of the world?"

2. I feel that there is a conflicting message in the Bible about who God is i.e is he one? or is he three in one? etc. I also find the idea of sin in the Bible is contradicting. I feel that Jesus having to die for us as theologically impossible as we are discussing at the moment and the Bible also shows this too.

Also, before we even consider what's in the Bible, we must ask which Bible should we read. There are so many versions that disagree with eachother. Which is the truth? For example, the KJV calls Jesus the "Son of God" in one place and then the New KJV calls him the "Servant of God" in the same place. Also, some statements have had to be removed from the Bible when we discover earlier manuscripts which show some statements to be later fabrications. One must ask the question: If more manuscripts are found, how many more changes will need to be made to the Bible?

So basically I have concerns about who wrote the Bible and what is in the Bible. Now, why do I find the Quran to be the word of Allah. Well...

Firstly, the Quran is actually a divine revelation from Allah. The Holy Prophet (SAW) never claimed to be the author of the book. You might be thinking, "well of course he wont claim that". However the Holy Prophet (SAW) was greatly sincere in his belief that this book came from Allah. People like Professor William Montgomery Watt agree with this. Yes, you can be sincerely wrong, but let me tell you why he didn’t write it...

He couldn’t read or write, he could only write his own name. How could he write a whole book which covers all of human endeavour whether it be private, family, social, economical or political. Also, the Quran addresses the Holy Prophet (SAW) and even at times criticises him. Thus, it does not fit the psychology of him to write the book…

The Quran also speaks about things in the past such as nations that have perished. Some of these nations we have just discovered, and it’s quite impossible for him to know such great detail that only archaeologists can tell us in modern days. The Quran also has great prophecies about things that will happen in the future, and then they actually turn out true. From the top of my head, I can remember Pharaoh.

Also, the Quran tells us about science. The Quran describes the sun, the moon, the universe. It goes in great detail even in things like embryology. Many respected and recognised people in the field have clearly stated that the Quran has divine knowledge.

The Quran says in 4:82: “Have they not considered this book with care, had it been from any other than Allah, there would have surely been found much discrepancy.” The Quran also challenges people to produce a book or even a chapter like it. It is surely amazing that noone has been able to do such a thing!
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      08-22-2007, 04:54 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by its ray den
hks, to respond to everything you said would be repetitive since i don't know how else to express my beliefs in that area, so i'll just leave some of it alone.
At least we can agree that we disagree Maybe another Christian can answer my questions...

Quote:
Originally Posted by its ray den
Why is Jesus’ death called a ransom?
The Greek word translated “ransom” here means “payment to release someone from some kind of bondage—prison, debt, or slavery.” Those who have paid the ransom for Sudanese tribal people trapped in slavery have bought their freedom, doing for them what they could never have done for themselves.

This is what Jesus did by His death on the cross for the many. He paid what they could not pay in order to give them release—His death for the freedom of many from the prison and debt and slavery of sin.

note, it says we are slaves to sin, not the devil.

how does that change your understanding of the verse
Well, it doesnt change my opinion, sadly. The reason is that a ransom has to be paid to someone or something, even if it's NOT the Devil. I also feel that my last post to you covered a lot of my points that no Christian to this day has ever answered for me.
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