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      04-02-2013, 12:08 PM   #1
dblrguy
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Talking Convince me to spend money / Setup question

Iím going to upgrade to 19inch wheels and plan to do some other suspension upgrades at the same time. I doubt I will be able (read allowed) to get everything I want at one time. Iíve already compromised this list down quite a bit. I need to know if Iím going the right way with this. Right order, right parts, can I do this in stages as listed, or any other constructive comments?

Iím currently running a 2010 335i FBO+meth on stock sport suspension. Planning to go with 19x9 and 19x10 wheels with Michelin Pilot Super Sports.
I have the Koni yellows with H&R sport springs on my other e90 and Iím happy with them. Every time I drive the wifeís car (a '06 330i) I want to upgrade my suspension.

Shopping list (Stage 1):
Wheel & Tire Package (Wheels for look, tires for grip)
Koni Yellows (liked the change on my 330i when ditching rft's)
H&R Sport springs (works well with koni yellows, would love JRZ or better setup but cant afford it)
M3 Strut bar kit
M3 Front control arm kit (TRW)
M3 Rear kit (TRW)

------With DIY labor Iím at about $4,900 for the parts listed above.--------

I also want to add (Stage 2):
LSD (I know everyone says to do this first but this was the best way for me to split up the cost, and I really guess I don't drive as hard as many here cause I don't have the traction problems many here talk about. Maybe I'm just smooth )
Hotchkis F & R sways (because they come with adjustable end links)
M3 Subframe bushings
DEFIV diff lockdown

-----Add $4,300 for these parts = $9,200.

Did I forget any important parts for either stage? Do I need camber plates? Is this the correct order to do everything? Please chime in with any suggestions.

Iím aware my list may look short, I have added hardware kits and alignment cost into the pricing listed above. I have spent at least 8 hours reading suspension threads in the last few days, looking for more confirmation that Iím going the right way with this. I'm building this car to be ready for a turbo upgrade when I no longer need it as my DD in a couple of years.

THANKS!
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      04-02-2013, 01:45 PM   #2
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Bump. Sounds like a fun project.
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      04-02-2013, 04:46 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by conrad325i View Post
Bump. Sounds like a fun project.
Thanks for reading and the bump. I'm excited to do the work and have my car looking and handling correctly. Still hoping other that have done this might chime in and share what they might have done differently if they had it to do again.

~Nate
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      04-02-2013, 06:24 PM   #4
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Personally, I am doing everything you have on the stage 1 list with a couple of differences. Here is what I have planned on my list and the reasons:

- Wheels and Tires: Apex EC-7 F:18x9.0 245/35/18 and R:18x10 265/35/18 on Michelin PSS. THANKS to apex for doing an awesome GB for the wheels!! Wheels looks killer and tires for grip
- SS Brake Lines from ECS + Motul RBF600 (no brainer direct fit) [yes i know this is not suspension, but its part of handling too!!]
- M3 Front control arm kit (TRW)
- Meyle Tie Rod (Might as well while I am in there doing the control arms)
- HPA Koni with swift spring coilover set. (probably the BEST setup for the price. I run swift springs on my Acura NSX with KW and they are insane!! Linear springs unlike the H&R's progressive. Go drive the progessive/linear around and feel for yourself! Height adjustable for the winter and track. All costs around $1700 which is an awesome deal!)
- M3 Front Sway Bar 26mm Kit (Since i am doing the coilover kit, might as well tighten things up even more)
- Meyle/OEM front sway bar endlinks (might as well since i am swapping the sways)
- If i have the money and if i can find a good used one, then i'll also throw in the M3 struct bar kit. Don't feel like this part makes a huge difference unless i track.

Stage 2: (Basically everything the rear)

- M3 Rear Control arms (TRW)
- M3 Rear Sway Bar 20mm Kit with OEM endlinks
- M3 Subframe Bushing (get these done with the sway since we gotta drop the subframe for the job)
- LSD (haven't decide on Quaife or Wavetrac, probably go with whichever I get the better deal with.) [I also understand this should be on of the first things to do, but i beg to differ. I'd like to get all the suspension components in place before I put all the power down!! Putting power down with little suspension upgrade = useless AND dangerous also lol]

Basically, the only difference between how I am doing it and you is the different suspension setup, and i'll be putting in the rear control arms later rather than sooner. The reasoning behind that is because it can save myself some time and fiddling around the back end once and for all with the LSD and everything else. Good luck and update us!! Have Fun!
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      04-02-2013, 09:19 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dblrguy View Post
Shopping list (Stage 1):
Wheel & Tire Package (Wheels for look, tires for grip)
Koni Yellows (liked the change on my 330i when ditching rft's)
H&R Sport springs (works well with koni yellows, would love JRZ or better setup but cant afford it)
M3 Strut bar kit
M3 Front control arm kit (TRW)
M3 Rear kit (TRW)

I also want to add (Stage 2):
LSD (I know everyone says to do this first but this was the best way for me to split up the cost, and I really guess I don't drive as hard as many here cause I don't have the traction problems many here talk about. Maybe I'm just smooth )
Hotchkis F & R sways (because they come with adjustable end links)
M3 Subframe bushings
DEFIV diff lockdown

Did I forget any important parts for either stage? Do I need camber plates? Is this the correct order to do everything? Please chime in with any suggestions.
I'm operating under the assumption you want a [much] better handling car with superior driver feedback.

Stage 1 - Add adjustable rear toe arms, they are a must with a 335. Will prevent 'rear steering' aka toe changes under acceleration. Also add camber plates, extra camber will greatly help traction in turns

Stage 2 - I'd skip the diff lock-down kit, the ones I've seen are ghetto as f*ck.

P.S. -LSD is mostly about power delivery through turns. The 'e-diff' our cars come with cannot propel the car out of turns because power is going to the wheel with less traction.

Run the numbers on this setup:
-Nitron NTR R1 or JRZ RS1 coilovers w/ M3 rear camber links
-Adjustable sway bar end-links
-Camber plates (Ground Control Street)
-M3 front control arms/tension struts*
-M3 rear subframe bushings
-Adjustable rear toe arms
-Quaife LSD

*not critical
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      04-03-2013, 07:00 AM   #6
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Thanks to kaede and cj421 for the reply. I will run the numbers on your suggestions. This is the help I'm looking for. I think everything that can be said about suspension has been said but I'm hoping to put it here in one place for others looking to take advantage of the cheaper trw parts.

Kaede - I am going to upgrade my brake lines and pads, that's hidden in my price.

Cj421 - look at this lockdown kit http://www.defivfabrication.com/

Few more things:

Another bonus of the m3 tower brace is access to adjust front suspension.

I've seen it posted that if I'm not tracking and I do stop here with the suspension I don't need the camber plates. I think it was even one of the vendors that said this.

Similar statement about the adjustable rear toe arms. I think I've seen it said in a couple threads that with everything m3 in the front and minus the sway in the back, minimal drop from the h&r sport springs it can still be aligned to 335 specs other than the -.75 camber up front. Are the adj toe arms just to make it easier for the alignment shop or installation or really needed to dial it in?

I do want the adjustable sway bar end links, thats why I chose the hotchkis kit cause it comes with them for about the same price as the just the m3 bars.

My car only has 35k miles, is there another bonus to the front tie rod upgrade/swap? Mine look good right now.

I'm also a bit worried about finding a shop that do the alignment right the first time. Any pointers on questions to ask as I contact different shops?

The truth is that with a 3k set of wheels this setup has about a ~10k price tag. Really looking for some subjective input on where the line should be for those (like me) that can easily do the wrenching but have never seen the track and dont know if they will, and just want a sharp handling car. The cost is not an issue, it's there but I just want to be realistic for MY needs.

If I've made any false statements please correct me as to prevent confusing others.

Thanks again,
~Nate
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      04-03-2013, 11:22 AM   #7
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I personally wouldn't spend close to what you're looking at on suspension/drivetrain upgrades for a non-track driven car. The upgrades might be noticed but not fully appreciated.

A safe approach to this fiscal cliff is to do the same upgrades to your car that you did to your wife's car and decide where to go from there. Dampers and springs constitute the majority of the handling difference behind tires.
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      04-03-2013, 12:41 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ421 View Post
I personally wouldn't spend close to what you're looking at on suspension/drivetrain upgrades for a non-track driven car. The upgrades might be noticed but not fully appreciated.

A safe approach to this fiscal cliff is to do the same upgrades to your car that you did to your wife's car and decide where to go from there. Dampers and springs constitute the majority of the handling difference behind tires.
I actually do agree with your statements. On one hand I'm telling myself I don't need most of this stuff, on the other I don't want to half it (leave out some of the m3 parts or LSD) and then start having the traction issues other mention and have to get back under the car to add the parts later and have to pay for another alignment.

~Nate
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      04-03-2013, 05:55 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dblrguy View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ421 View Post
I personally wouldn't spend close to what you're looking at on suspension/drivetrain upgrades for a non-track driven car. The upgrades might be noticed but not fully appreciated.

A safe approach to this fiscal cliff is to do the same upgrades to your car that you did to your wife's car and decide where to go from there. Dampers and springs constitute the majority of the handling difference behind tires.
I actually do agree with your statements. On one hand I'm telling myself I don't need most of this stuff, on the other I don't want to half it (leave out some of the m3 parts or LSD) and then start having the traction issues other mention and have to get back under the car to add the parts later and have to pay for another alignment.

~Nate
It sounds like you really want to mod your ride and I don't blame you. I would want to do all of those things too. But....

For $10K, you could buy and fix up a e36 m3 to beat the crap out of without worrying about messing up your DD.
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      04-03-2013, 06:02 PM   #10
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I don't know why people say this looks 'ghetto as fuck'..
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LEMANS BLUE M-TECH E92->PROCEDE REV3::ETS 7" FMIC::RACELAND DPS::WAVETRAC DIFF::DEFIV DIFF LOCKDOWN::DEFIV OCC::DEFIV INTAKE::RB PCV
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      04-03-2013, 07:27 PM   #11
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I don't know why people say this looks 'ghetto as fuck'..
Exactly! I don't think that kit is well known here.

~N

Last edited by dblrguy; 05-07-2013 at 08:52 PM.
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      04-03-2013, 07:49 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by neoduffer View Post
It sounds like you really want to mod your ride and I don't blame you. I would want to do all of those things too. But....

For $10K, you could buy and fix up a e36 m3 to beat the crap out of without worrying about messing up your DD.
Its not just wanting to mod it. I had one of the first e90s (06) in my area. I moved and deployed and spent the next 5 years wishing I had waited for the N54. A couple times a year I would do the math to see if I could get one. Because of the 335 being released my 330 just did not maintain its value. I decided I was going to have to keep it at the three year mark and did the wheels and suspension. The stance is perfect. I wash it and take good care of it and still get compliments when I'm out and about. The stars aligned and I was able to pass the 330i to the wife and get the perfect 335. 2010, MT, less than 26K miles, fully loaded and CLEAN. I bought it for $20K under the sticker price form 18 months earlier. It does not help that I've had over 3 years worth of deployment time to research parts for this car I had wanted for so long. I legitimately want the stance and a better ride than the 330. At the same time I have a hard time spending more on parts than a decent used car.

This is a large reason I'm posting this up. I want to hear some pros and cons of this setup.

Thanks for posting!
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      04-04-2013, 04:18 AM   #13
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Its not just wanting to mod it. I had one of the first e90s (06) in my area. I moved and deployed and spent the next 5 years wishing I had waited for the N54. A couple times a year I would do the math to see if I could get one. Because of the 335 being released my 330 just did not maintain its value. I decided I was going to have to keep it at the three year mark and did the wheels and suspension. The stance is perfect. I wash it and take good care of it and still get compliments when I'm out and about. The stars aligned and I was able to pass the 330i to the wife and get the perfect 335. 2010, MT, less than 26K miles, fully loaded and CLEAN. I bought it for $20K under the sticker price form 18 months earlier. It does not help that I've had over 3 years worth of deployment time to research parts for this car I had wanted for so long. I legitimately want the stance and a better ride than the 330. At the same time I have a hard time spending more on parts than a decent used car.

This is a large reason I'm posting this up. I want to hear some pros and cons of this setup.

Thanks for posting!
Thanks for your service.

I poured over many suspension posts and recommendations over the years. Paralysis of analysis is what I ran into. This is the progression I arrived at after reading the great posts on the board.

Tires - wider for more grip and square for a more balanced feel
Camber - more camber = more cornering grip.
Springs and Dampers - better ride, quicker transitions with higher spring rates
Control arms / links - control and maintain alignment through bumps & suspension travel
Sway Bars - refinement
LSD / Diff Lock - traction out of corners and launches

Stage 1 - ~$5,700
Wheel and tires: Apex Arc-8 Concave 17x9 +30, 255/40R17 Direzza ZII / BFG Rivals / Bridgestone RE-11A (17" = less looks, 255 = way more grip)
Coilovers: Ground Control Street/School Kit (the works! camber plates, M3 rear camber link, Single adjustable custom valved Koni dampers, Eibach ERS linear springs)
Rear Toe Link: Ground Control Toe Link, HPA RE Toe Link, Megan Racing Toe Link
M3 Strut bar
M3 Front control arm kit
M3 Front sway bar (many say this may be enough)

17" wheels aren't as sexy as 19", but you have so many options with tires at 17" and the tires are much cheaper. 245/40R17 Michelin PSS are $204 each vs 225/35R19 @$249ea & 255/30R19 @$281 for 19" PSS. You'll probably go wider, so even more money for rubber. 19" is damn sexy and that may be the overwhelming factor. You can also stuff a 255 wide tire in each corner (front camber required) with sticky extreme summer tires like the new BFG Rival, Direzza ZII, Bridgestone RE-11A, Hankook RS-3, or Yokohama AD08 for $155 to $240 per tire that you can rotate for better life. You'll get better cornering and braking with these tires, plus a 17" tires will ride better than 19s. Ditching the RFTs That's my 2 cents for wheel and tires.

GC suspension kit has almost everything you'd want in a coil over kit: custom valved Koni single adjustable dampers, choice of spring rates (Eibach street or race springs), camber plates, M3 rear camber link and rear shock, etc. This may be the most complete, best bang for your buck suspension kit available. With camber plates, you won't have to reuse the top hats for the front struts, thus saving some install time. If you get more obsessive, with coil overs you can corner balance your car.

Rear Toe Link - seems like a must to prevent the rear from stepping out during hard acceleration. I'm not sure if people have done this upgrade without the M3 rear bits. I wasn't convinced that the M3 rear bits did that much for people over the upgraded rear toe link.

M3 Tower Brace is needed if you have adjustable dampers to access the knobs.

M3 Front bits - incremental after the above, but not much more labor. An upgraded front sway bar seems to benefit more than F+R or R alone. Great post on upgrading the front bar only.

I think you've got Stage 2 down pat.

You need to take your ride to the track or autocross so you can safely drive at 7/10ths or higher. Take it out stock and after Stage 1 to fully appreciate the upgrades. The car is pretty capable stock and will be sublime after the mods. Then get a GoPro and Harry's Lap Timer and make cool videos using DashWare.

It is late (or getting early) and I better get offline.
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      04-04-2013, 08:34 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by neoduffer View Post
Thanks for your service.
I am proud to serve. Thank you!

As to your comments !

You said it very well with, "paralysis of analysis". There is so much information out there and everyones first advice is to get EVERYTHING. There are a ton of little pieces of info in your one post that would take hours and multiple threads to attain else ware. These are the responses I was hoping for when I posted this thread. I kind of knew the answers I just wanted some confirmation.

As of now I'm set on wheels, thanks to IVAN at PYSpeed! I want a look that can only be had with 19s. Not set on the COs yet. I was thinking I should do better than the koni/H&R but donít want to go the KW route. The last time I was ready to drop coin and do this, I got stuck at M3 bits and which CO. (This was before the TRW parts were out.) I know I'm between GC and HPA now. I talked to Harold yesterday. Great guy! I like it when a vendor is not just searching for a buck trying to sell someone something they don't need. He was quick to tell me I didnít need something even though he carries it. Props to him for that!

As for GC itís not a huge jump in price and you do get more with the kit. Iím just reading now on each kit and suggested spring rates. Hoping to place my order by the end of the week!

~Nate
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      04-04-2013, 12:59 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neoduffer
Quote:
Originally Posted by dblrguy View Post
Its not just wanting to mod it. I had one of the first e90s (06) in my area. I moved and deployed and spent the next 5 years wishing I had waited for the N54. A couple times a year I would do the math to see if I could get one. Because of the 335 being released my 330 just did not maintain its value. I decided I was going to have to keep it at the three year mark and did the wheels and suspension. The stance is perfect. I wash it and take good care of it and still get compliments when I'm out and about. The stars aligned and I was able to pass the 330i to the wife and get the perfect 335. 2010, MT, less than 26K miles, fully loaded and CLEAN. I bought it for $20K under the sticker price form 18 months earlier. It does not help that I've had over 3 years worth of deployment time to research parts for this car I had wanted for so long. I legitimately want the stance and a better ride than the 330. At the same time I have a hard time spending more on parts than a decent used car.

This is a large reason I'm posting this up. I want to hear some pros and cons of this setup.

Thanks for posting!
Thanks for your service.

I poured over many suspension posts and recommendations over the years. Paralysis of analysis is what I ran into. This is the progression I arrived at after reading the great posts on the board.

Tires - wider for more grip and square for a more balanced feel
Camber - more camber = more cornering grip.
Springs and Dampers - better ride, quicker transitions with higher spring rates
Control arms / links - control and maintain alignment through bumps & suspension travel
Sway Bars - refinement
LSD / Diff Lock - traction out of corners and launches

Stage 1 - ~$5,700
Wheel and tires: Apex Arc-8 Concave 17x9 +30, 255/40R17 Direzza ZII / BFG Rivals / Bridgestone RE-11A (17" = less looks, 255 = way more grip)
Coilovers: Ground Control Street/School Kit (the works! camber plates, M3 rear camber link, Single adjustable custom valved Koni dampers, Eibach ERS linear springs)
Rear Toe Link: Ground Control Toe Link, HPA RE Toe Link, Megan Racing Toe Link
M3 Strut bar
M3 Front control arm kit
M3 Front sway bar (many say this may be enough)

17" wheels aren't as sexy as 19", but you have so many options with tires at 17" and the tires are much cheaper. 245/40R17 Michelin PSS are $204 each vs 225/35R19 @$249ea & 255/30R19 @$281 for 19" PSS. You'll probably go wider, so even more money for rubber. 19" is damn sexy and that may be the overwhelming factor. You can also stuff a 255 wide tire in each corner (front camber required) with sticky extreme summer tires like the new BFG Rival, Direzza ZII, Bridgestone RE-11A, Hankook RS-3, or Yokohama AD08 for $155 to $240 per tire that you can rotate for better life. You'll get better cornering and braking with these tires, plus a 17" tires will ride better than 19s. Ditching the RFTs That's my 2 cents for wheel and tires.

GC suspension kit has almost everything you'd want in a coil over kit: custom valved Koni single adjustable dampers, choice of spring rates (Eibach street or race springs), camber plates, M3 rear camber link and rear shock, etc. This may be the most complete, best bang for your buck suspension kit available. With camber plates, you won't have to reuse the top hats for the front struts, thus saving some install time. If you get more obsessive, with coil overs you can corner balance your car.

Rear Toe Link - seems like a must to prevent the rear from stepping out during hard acceleration. I'm not sure if people have done this upgrade without the M3 rear bits. I wasn't convinced that the M3 rear bits did that much for people over the upgraded rear toe link.

M3 Tower Brace is needed if you have adjustable dampers to access the knobs.

M3 Front bits - incremental after the above, but not much more labor. An upgraded front sway bar seems to benefit more than F+R or R alone. Great post on upgrading the front bar only.

I think you've got Stage 2 down pat.

You need to take your ride to the track or autocross so you can safely drive at 7/10ths or higher. Take it out stock and after Stage 1 to fully appreciate the upgrades. The car is pretty capable stock and will be sublime after the mods. Then get a GoPro and Harry's Lap Timer and make cool videos using DashWare.

It is late (or getting early) and I better get offline.
My only comment on this is that I was also concerned about not being able to adjust my JRZ RS1 front dampers with the base model 335d strut tower brace, but now with them on it is no problem to reach the adjustment knobs. Having said that, I may still do the M3 OEM Strut Tower Brace at a future date after I take care of some other items.
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      04-04-2013, 04:08 PM   #16
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My only comment on this is that I was also concerned about not being able to adjust my JRZ RS1 front dampers with the base model 335d strut tower brace, but now with them on it is no problem to reach the adjustment knobs. Having said that, I may still do the M3 OEM Strut Tower Brace at a future date after I take care of some other items.
The M3 strut brace provides a noticable improvement for only a few bucks (compared to other mods ).
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      04-04-2013, 04:51 PM   #17
neoduffer
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Originally Posted by 335dFan View Post
My only comment on this is that I was also concerned about not being able to adjust my JRZ RS1 front dampers with the base model 335d strut tower brace, but now with them on it is no problem to reach the adjustment knobs. Having said that, I may still do the M3 OEM Strut Tower Brace at a future date after I take care of some other items.
I think that depends on the stack height of the top hat used. It seems like the short stack height of Vorschlag plates will promote a adjustment knob to stick way out and even contact the stock bar. If you can still adjust the dampers as is, all the better.
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      04-04-2013, 05:41 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by neoduffer
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Originally Posted by 335dFan View Post
My only comment on this is that I was also concerned about not being able to adjust my JRZ RS1 front dampers with the base model 335d strut tower brace, but now with them on it is no problem to reach the adjustment knobs. Having said that, I may still do the M3 OEM Strut Tower Brace at a future date after I take care of some other items.
I think that depends on the stack height of the top hat used. It seems like the short stack height of Vorschlag plates will promote a adjustment knob to stick way out and even contact the stock bar. If you can still adjust the dampers as is, all the better.
I have the Ground Control plates.
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      04-04-2013, 06:11 PM   #19
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...Not set on the COs yet. I was thinking I should do better than the koni/H&R but donít want to go the KW route. The last time I was ready to drop coin and do this, I got stuck at M3 bits and which CO. (This was before the TRW parts were out.) I know I'm between GC and HPA now. I talked to Harold yesterday. Great guy! I like it when a vendor is not just searching for a buck trying to sell someone something they don't need. He was quick to tell me I didnít need something even though he carries it. Props to him for that!

As for GC itís not a huge jump in price and you do get more with the kit. Iím just reading now on each kit and suggested spring rates. Hoping to place my order by the end of the week!

~Nate
Harold is great to deal with 99% of the time. He knows his stuff and you're right about his no pressure customer service. The HPA Konis with Swift springs are an excellent alternative. You're in good hands either way.

Choice of spring rates. Another opportunity for over analysis. I opted for 392F/672R with good results. The front is responsive and the rear is compliant enough for street/highway.
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      04-04-2013, 07:49 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neoduffer View Post
Harold is great to deal with 99% of the time. He knows his stuff and you're right about his no pressure customer service. The HPA Konis with Swift springs are an excellent alternative. You're in good hands either way.

Choice of spring rates. Another opportunity for over analysis. I opted for 392F/672R with good results. The front is responsive and the rear is compliant enough for street/highway.
I went with GC. They just gave me the best deal. Thinking about spring rates while they wait for the tubes to be powder coated. As for now my order is for 430/700. I've seen the arguments against the high rates GC suggests. Have yet to see anyone change them though, not that I've dug very deep.
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      04-04-2013, 08:12 PM   #21
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I bought the diff first and am (a year later) doing the suspension. But, our requirements could be different.

I bought the 335 specifically to have a little fun. And putting a little throttle into sharp turns was a large part of that. I didn't know it came with an e-diff when taking delivery and was pretty bummed for the first few months, but I socked away some cash and got a Quaife when the time was right. It's not earth shattering performance (i'm stock other than the Quaife), but it is definitely noticeable when you want it to be noticeable. I say it makes driving like an idiot less scary.

That said, I didn't notice the traction issues either until *after* I got the quaife. Its very pronounced over uneven roads. Now I turn DSC fully off whenever it's dry. The car really is quite well balanced and DSC isn't very useful to me in the dry. On the contrary, it pulling timing is really annoying.

I'd do the diff first again but I'd also do the swaybars at the same time. The rest can be done over time.
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      04-04-2013, 08:38 PM   #22
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Yeah man id just go for an e36 and fix it up. lol
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