E90Post
 


Lux Angel Eyes
 
BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Technical Forums > All-Wheel-Drive (Xi / xDrive) Talk > Don't Underestimate Endlinks when Lowering



Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      01-20-2013, 06:56 PM   #1
pits200
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Drives: 09 335i X-Drive Black Sapphire
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Pittsburgh

Posts: 1,897
iTrader: (0)

Don't Underestimate Endlinks when Lowering

So I've been playing around with the front sway for a few weeks now. Luckily a nice function of the asts is adjustable endlink collars. I've been lowered for about 2 years now but still on stock endlinks.

The car felt solid but had a little more front sway then I expected along with harshness in the front. So I really dialed in the links today to make sure there was almost zero preload on the front sway.

Let me tell you the difference is night and day in the drive. Its so much smoother on bumps and just across the board. Also, there is much less sway in the front with the newer bushings, the old ones were pretty bad.

So if you're lowered, take some time and look at your front endlinks, for under $100 it was worth every penny.
pits200 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-21-2013, 06:35 AM   #2
ajsalida
Lieutenant Colonel
 
ajsalida's Avatar
 
Drives: 95 M3, 02 R1150GSA, 09 335xi
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: SW USA

Posts: 1,520
iTrader: (2)

So did you make them shorter or longer vs stock, what exactly did you do?
ajsalida is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-21-2013, 09:07 AM   #3
pits200
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Drives: 09 335i X-Drive Black Sapphire
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Pittsburgh

Posts: 1,897
iTrader: (0)

Since I didn't have a lift, I measured the height from the center of the hub to the top of the wheel well with the car on the ground. Mine was about 13.5 inches. I then jacked up the car, took off the tire and used a bottle jack to release weight off the endlinks, my links were wayyyy too short and it was definitely preloading the sway.

I then disconnected and jacked up the hub with the bottle jack till I measured the center of the hub to the top of the wheel well was 13.5inches. With the ASTs, they have adjustable endlink collars which I threaded down about 3 inches and to where the endlink slid into the strut and sway bar with no resistance.

Now is this exact, no but it's the best I could do in a quick pinch. It's shocking how much smoother the car is over bumps with not as much preload on the front sway.
pits200 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-21-2013, 12:07 PM   #4
Nonecure
Private First Class
 
Nonecure's Avatar
 
Drives: 2009 335xi E90 LCI
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Dayton, Ohio

Posts: 199
iTrader: (1)

This sounds like the problem I am experiencing. I just put Eibach springs on my car and it feels like it wants to bounce over a bump. At first I thought the Bilstein struts did not have enough dampening on the rebound. Is this what you experienced? Do you have any pics of the install and/or a part number for the end links?
Nonecure is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-21-2013, 02:37 PM   #5
pits200
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Drives: 09 335i X-Drive Black Sapphire
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Pittsburgh

Posts: 1,897
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nonecure View Post
This sounds like the problem I am experiencing. I just put Eibach springs on my car and it feels like it wants to bounce over a bump. At first I thought the Bilstein struts did not have enough dampening on the rebound. Is this what you experienced? Do you have any pics of the install and/or a part number for the end links?
I just used the Meyle HD endlinks but I have adjustable endlink collars on the asts. If I didn't have that option the links would have been at least 2-3 inches too short for as much as I'm dropped.

Since I'm unsure where the Bilstein endlink point is I can't be much help telling you how long of an endlink you'd need. But honestly, if you're using stock endlinks like I was for almost 2 years, you are doing yourself a disservice by not getting this problem updated with how nice the car feels now. In essence I was using the sway to eat up bumps by preloading instead of the spring rate I chose.

As for the adjustable endlinks I'm unsure how they fix on hte xi, you may have to go custom length.
pits200 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-21-2013, 03:42 PM   #6
ajsalida
Lieutenant Colonel
 
ajsalida's Avatar
 
Drives: 95 M3, 02 R1150GSA, 09 335xi
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: SW USA

Posts: 1,520
iTrader: (2)

I don't understand how the endlinks can pre-load the sway bar. The only load it can take is one side higher or lower than the other, by torsional twisting. Now maybe the rubber sway bar bushings (holding the bar to the chassis) are loaded/binding up, both twisting same way to get to the new lower ride height. If the bar is not free to move to a lower position, I can see needing to release & re-tighten them esp if they are stock.

Not disputing what you're saying just not seeing it in my head what you mean when you say the bar was pre-loaded.
ajsalida is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-21-2013, 03:52 PM   #7
pits200
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Drives: 09 335i X-Drive Black Sapphire
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Pittsburgh

Posts: 1,897
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajsalida View Post
I don't understand how the endlinks can pre-load the sway bar. The only load it can take is one side higher or lower than the other, by torsional twisting. Now maybe the rubber sway bar bushings (holding the bar to the chassis) are loaded/binding up, both twisting same way to get to the new lower ride height. If the bar is not free to move to a lower position, I can see needing to release & re-tighten them esp if they are stock.

Not disputing what you're saying just not seeing it in my head what you mean when you say the bar was pre-loaded.
Trust me, I had to draw myself a diagram before I could conceptually understand, it confused the hell out of me.

The sway bar should be doing nothing when riding on a flat straight road, meaning if you reached underneath while the car is sitting with all weight on all 4 tires you should be able to undo the endlink bolt and pull off the endlink with no resistance(This is ideal). That is suppose to be how the endlink connects.

But when lowering the car the strut gets shorter meaning the standard mount point on the sway bar point moves closer to the ground. So if you connect the stock length endlink, it pulls on the sway bar when weight is put back on the car and that causes preload on the sway and effects the effective spring rate since you aren't letting the springs work as they should.
pits200 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-21-2013, 05:17 PM   #8
ajsalida
Lieutenant Colonel
 
ajsalida's Avatar
 
Drives: 95 M3, 02 R1150GSA, 09 335xi
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: SW USA

Posts: 1,520
iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by pits200 View Post
Trust me, I had to draw myself a diagram before I could conceptually understand, it confused the hell out of me.

The sway bar should be doing nothing when riding on a flat straight road, meaning if you reached underneath while the car is sitting with all weight on all 4 tires you should be able to undo the endlink bolt and pull off the endlink with no resistance(This is ideal). That is suppose to be how the endlink connects.

But when lowering the car the strut gets shorter meaning the standard mount point on the sway bar point moves closer to the ground. So if you connect the stock length endlink, it pulls on the sway bar when weight is put back on the car and that causes preload on the sway and effects the effective spring rate since you aren't letting the springs work as they should.
OK I understand that (I think). Please tell me why loosening the two clamps that hold the sway bar bushings (on the subframe under the radiator) and allowing the sway bar & its ends (where the links attach) to rotate up would not alleviate this. Essentially this makes the sway bar ends match back up to the stock links at the un pre-loaded spot again.
ajsalida is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-21-2013, 05:27 PM   #9
pits200
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Drives: 09 335i X-Drive Black Sapphire
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Pittsburgh

Posts: 1,897
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajsalida View Post
OK I understand that (I think). Please tell me why loosening the two clamps that hold the sway bar bushings (on the subframe under the radiator) and allowing the sway bar & its ends (where the links attach) to rotate up would not alleviate this. Essentially this makes the sway bar ends match back up to the stock links at the un pre-loaded spot again.
I was thinking the same thing about rotating the sway bar so that the top part was more parallel instead of its standard 5o'clock pointing position. I'm not sure how that would impact the geometry of the sway bar being that I didn't try it. But is this what you mean. Yes you can laugh at my drawing.
Attached Images
 
pits200 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-21-2013, 05:55 PM   #10
ajsalida
Lieutenant Colonel
 
ajsalida's Avatar
 
Drives: 95 M3, 02 R1150GSA, 09 335xi
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: SW USA

Posts: 1,520
iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by pits200 View Post
I was thinking the same thing about rotating the sway bar so that the top part was more parallel instead of its standard 5o'clock pointing position. I'm not sure how that would impact the geometry of the sway bar being that I didn't try it. But is this what you mean. Yes you can laugh at my drawing.
Well don't quit your day job, but yeah that is exactly what I was thinking. I need to get under my car later this week I will give it a try. I am only on Koni/Eibachs though so maybe 1.5" drop. How low is your front end over stock? I can see this would be an issue if you were like 3" lower.

The motion ratio if you work it back to the sway bar end is maybe (guessing) half the drop. Meaning the amount the bar end moved down is maybe half the drop of the car @ the wheel well due to the fact that the bar end and strut mounting point is well inboard of the tire.

Anyway I am glad you brought this up. I released the binding on all the other major suspension bushings when I installed the Konis and that made a big difference. But I forgot the sway bars! Doh.
ajsalida is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-21-2013, 07:44 PM   #11
pits200
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Drives: 09 335i X-Drive Black Sapphire
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Pittsburgh

Posts: 1,897
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajsalida View Post
Well don't quit your day job, but yeah that is exactly what I was thinking. I need to get under my car later this week I will give it a try. I am only on Koni/Eibachs though so maybe 1.5" drop. How low is your front end over stock? I can see this would be an issue if you were like 3" lower.

The motion ratio if you work it back to the sway bar end is maybe (guessing) half the drop. Meaning the amount the bar end moved down is maybe half the drop of the car @ the wheel well due to the fact that the bar end and strut mounting point is well inboard of the tire.

Anyway I am glad you brought this up. I released the binding on all the other major suspension bushings when I installed the Konis and that made a big difference. But I forgot the sway bars! Doh.
Not sure how much you'll gain by the rotation, if you gained half the drop that'd be pretty good. Because as you rotate, the bar hole on the sway will start moving towards the front of the car so there will be an ideal point to gain the most distance before you start losing the ground you gained.

As for me, I'm 13.5 inches from hub center to wheel well or about 1.5 fingers all around which I guess is pretty low.
pits200 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-21-2013, 07:47 PM   #12
pits200
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Drives: 09 335i X-Drive Black Sapphire
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Pittsburgh

Posts: 1,897
iTrader: (0)

I'm also gonna replace the rear links with the adjustable hotchkis links this weekend so hopefully it's warmer than -10 windchills.
pits200 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-22-2013, 12:25 AM   #13
avenger2540
First Lieutenant
 
avenger2540's Avatar
 
Drives: 09 e92 335i xDrive coupe
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: boston

Posts: 358
iTrader: (3)

Garage List
09 BMW e92 335xi  [3.33]
04 BMW e60i  [2.75]
Quote:
Originally Posted by pits200 View Post
I'm also gonna replace the rear links with the adjustable hotchkis links this weekend so hopefully it's warmer than -10 windchills.
So what u guys recommend,adjustable endlinks? I just replace my with meley hd,but not adjustable...
__________________
09 e92 335xi Alpine White, Saddle Interior, Sport pkg, Cold pkg, Comfort pkg, Premium pkg, Adactive Headlights, Black Kidney Grill, M3front, Mtech rear, M3side skirts, CF Performance spoiler, Kw v1, 19" M6 Replicas Hankook Ventus v12 evo...
avenger2540 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-22-2013, 08:53 AM   #14
pits200
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Drives: 09 335i X-Drive Black Sapphire
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Pittsburgh

Posts: 1,897
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by avenger2540 View Post
So what u guys recommend,adjustable endlinks? I just replace my with meley hd,but not adjustable...
Its hard for me to determine what would work for you guys since like I said, the ASTs have an adjustable endlink collar that can be threaded up and down on the coilover, it's a fantastic option. It gives me the ability to change the endlink connection by about 6 inches so I can't answer what is right for you guys.

Someone would have to do some measurements because if you don't have load on the car when finding out the length of endlink you need you are going to be off by a few inches once the car is put back on the ground it will put load on the bar.
pits200 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-22-2013, 09:04 AM   #15
avenger2540
First Lieutenant
 
avenger2540's Avatar
 
Drives: 09 e92 335i xDrive coupe
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: boston

Posts: 358
iTrader: (3)

Garage List
09 BMW e92 335xi  [3.33]
04 BMW e60i  [2.75]
Quote:
Originally Posted by pits200 View Post
Its hard for me to determine what would work for you guys since like I said, the ASTs have an adjustable endlink collar that can be threaded up and down on the coilover, it's a fantastic option. It gives me the ability to change the endlink connection by about 6 inches so I can't answer what is right for you guys.

Someone would have to do some measurements because if you don't have load on the car when finding out the length of endlink you need you are going to be off by a few inches once the car is put back on the ground it will put load on the bar.
Well to put load on the car while u find the length is not that hard, if u do what I did,I invited u to watch my video,so u can see the way I did it,I put weight in the car with 2 lifts,so if I do it the same way with the adjustable it will be right...
__________________
09 e92 335xi Alpine White, Saddle Interior, Sport pkg, Cold pkg, Comfort pkg, Premium pkg, Adactive Headlights, Black Kidney Grill, M3front, Mtech rear, M3side skirts, CF Performance spoiler, Kw v1, 19" M6 Replicas Hankook Ventus v12 evo...
avenger2540 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-22-2013, 09:35 AM   #16
pits200
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Drives: 09 335i X-Drive Black Sapphire
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Pittsburgh

Posts: 1,897
iTrader: (0)

I watched your vid, good breakdown of the replacement. But I guess I question how you knew how much to jack up the hub without measuring the height when the car is on the ground.

With the car on the ground I measured from wheel/hub center to the wheel well/fender which came to 13.5 inches. So when I put the car up on the jack, I knew I had to jack up the hub till the center measure 13.5 inches to the wheel well/fender. That is the best way I could find how to get an accurate measurement of what load actually would be with the car on the ground.

So with just jacking up the hub without knowing how high to jack it up, it isn't possible to know how long the endlink truly needs to be.
pits200 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-23-2013, 06:07 PM   #17
avenger2540
First Lieutenant
 
avenger2540's Avatar
 
Drives: 09 e92 335i xDrive coupe
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: boston

Posts: 358
iTrader: (3)

Garage List
09 BMW e92 335xi  [3.33]
04 BMW e60i  [2.75]
Quote:
Originally Posted by pits200 View Post
I watched your vid, good breakdown of the replacement. But I guess I question how you knew how much to jack up the hub without measuring the height when the car is on the ground.

With the car on the ground I measured from wheel/hub center to the wheel well/fender which came to 13.5 inches. So when I put the car up on the jack, I knew I had to jack up the hub till the center measure 13.5 inches to the wheel well/fender. That is the best way I could find how to get an accurate measurement of what load actually would be with the car on the ground.

So with just jacking up the hub without knowing how high to jack it up, it isn't possible to know how long the endlink truly needs to be.
Yea,thats the closed you can get,doing what I did,lifting the disk up, as far as u can go,without lifting the car,just puting the cars weight on the 2 lifts,that way it simulating the car on the ground...
__________________
09 e92 335xi Alpine White, Saddle Interior, Sport pkg, Cold pkg, Comfort pkg, Premium pkg, Adactive Headlights, Black Kidney Grill, M3front, Mtech rear, M3side skirts, CF Performance spoiler, Kw v1, 19" M6 Replicas Hankook Ventus v12 evo...
avenger2540 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-23-2013, 06:55 PM   #18
critical05
Private First Class
 
Drives: E92 335xi
Join Date: May 2012
Location: IA

Posts: 170
iTrader: (0)

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=789939

Check the last post, length is not much of influence, its the mounting point of asts.
critical05 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-23-2013, 08:18 PM   #19
ajsalida
Lieutenant Colonel
 
ajsalida's Avatar
 
Drives: 95 M3, 02 R1150GSA, 09 335xi
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: SW USA

Posts: 1,520
iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by critical05 View Post
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=789939

Check the last post, length is not much of influence, its the mounting point of asts.
Good to know, still plan on looking at mine to see if they are pre-loaded or binding up. Will report back what I find out.
ajsalida is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-24-2013, 06:00 PM   #20
asianstutter
Second Lieutenant
 
Drives: 2006 BMW 330xi
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Toronto

Posts: 241
iTrader: (2)

Is it necessary to replace your endlinks when lowering your car? if so, how about when i need to raise the car up again?
asianstutter is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-24-2013, 07:40 PM   #21
pits200
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Drives: 09 335i X-Drive Black Sapphire
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Pittsburgh

Posts: 1,897
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by asianstutter View Post
Is it necessary to replace your endlinks when lowering your car? if so, how about when i need to raise the car up again?
Keep the old ones and change them back.
pits200 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-25-2013, 10:32 PM   #22
asianstutter
Second Lieutenant
 
Drives: 2006 BMW 330xi
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Toronto

Posts: 241
iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by pits200 View Post
Keep the old ones and change them back.
what happens if i use my stock endlinks when lowering my car?
asianstutter is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:48 PM.




e90post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST