E90Post
 


Bimmer Retrofit
 
BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > BMW E90/E92/E93 3-series General Forums > Regional Forums > UK > UK Technical Forum > Thermostats - when to change



Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      01-29-2013, 08:27 AM   #1
Jules59
First Lieutenant
 
Jules59's Avatar
 
Drives: E91
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: UK. Warwickshire

Posts: 344
iTrader: (0)

Thermostats - when to change

Ive observed that thermostat failure does seem to be a recurrent problem with 6 pot diesels and is not a major issue to solve if you know its happening. But these cars do not have a temp gauge and so the problem can go unnoticed for some time with poor MPG and DPF problems being the result.
Would anyone recommend that the thermostats are changed as a matter of course if you are unable to measure coolant temp ?
What would be a sensible change period ?

I use my Android phone app to keep an eye on coolant temp but ofcourse other people do not have or want to be bothered with that ability.
__________________
Jules
Jules59 is offline   United Kingdom
0
Reply With Quote
      01-29-2013, 09:09 AM   #2
coopersim
Captain
 
coopersim's Avatar
 
Drives: VW Lupo
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Berks

Posts: 775
iTrader: (2)

Maybe just an occasional check of the temperature through the hidden menu?
coopersim is offline   United Kingdom
0
Reply With Quote
      01-29-2013, 12:10 PM   #3
oldbilly
Private First Class
 
Drives: 330d e91 M Sport
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: cambridgeshire

Posts: 194
iTrader: (2)

another point is how long it takes to warm up, when I first bought my 330d it took ages to warm up (warm air from heater) about 3 miles, after changing both stats I get warmish air after 1/2 mile and thats in this cooler weather.
oldbilly is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-30-2013, 02:45 PM   #4
blutak
New Member
 
Drives: 330D e92
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Manchester,UK

Posts: 15
iTrader: (0)

Ive been logging the temperature of the coolant for the last 2 weeks and no matter what driving style and current climate my temps always level off around 78-80c Took this to BMW thinking in their genius they might actually look at it but no, got a phone call today saying theres not a problem with them!

Will ring them tomorrow again to question their EGR "testing" methods!!

for what its worth it seems easier to change them yourself!!!
blutak is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-30-2013, 03:01 PM   #5
mistryn
Lieutenant Colonel
 
mistryn's Avatar
 
Drives: BMW 335D
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Mids

Posts: 1,929
iTrader: (7)

Quote:
Originally Posted by blutak View Post
Ive been logging the temperature of the coolant for the last 2 weeks and no matter what driving style and current climate my temps always level off around 78-80c Took this to BMW thinking in their genius they might actually look at it but no, got a phone call today saying theres not a problem with them!

Will ring them tomorrow again to question their EGR "testing" methods!!

for what its worth it seems easier to change them yourself!!!
I can just imagine whats happen there, car goes into the garage they let it idle...gets up to temperature as the car is stationary and no air beng forced into the rad...temp shows 88-91 degrees = Nothing wrong with the stat Sir, that will be £xxx for us to look into this.

what really should happen is they take the car on a test drive and monitor the temp when air is being forced through rad.

Going into hidden menu, take a mechanic out with you on test drive but this is more like annoy the dealer as you should not know about this hidden feature and how dare you tell us what is wrong with the car and should let us investigate, pay us the diagnostic fee to tell you what you already know (you can see I have had expereince with this )
mistryn is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-30-2013, 03:38 PM   #6
blutak
New Member
 
Drives: 330D e92
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Manchester,UK

Posts: 15
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mistryn View Post
I can just imagine whats happen there, car goes into the garage they let it idle...gets up to temperature as the car is stationary and no air beng forced into the rad...temp shows 88-91 degrees = Nothing wrong with the stat Sir, that will be £xxx for us to look into this.

what really should happen is they take the car on a test drive and monitor the temp when air is being forced through rad.

Going into hidden menu, take a mechanic out with you on test drive but this is more like annoy the dealer as you should not know about this hidden feature and how dare you tell us what is wrong with the car and should let us investigate, pay us the diagnostic fee to tell you what you already know (you can see I have had expereince with this )
I know im not the only one lol! Its absolutely absurd! Why do these moronic dealers test these valves stationary. I want to see the mechanics face tomorrow when i show them the graphs ive made lol

Name:  Temps.JPG
Views: 471
Size:  57.6 KB
blutak is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-30-2013, 03:41 PM   #7
coopersim
Captain
 
coopersim's Avatar
 
Drives: VW Lupo
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Berks

Posts: 775
iTrader: (2)

How did you make this graph? *want face*
coopersim is offline   United Kingdom
0
Reply With Quote
      01-30-2013, 05:03 PM   #8
blutak
New Member
 
Drives: 330D e92
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Manchester,UK

Posts: 15
iTrader: (0)

Haha, can you tell I'm an engineer.... Just using the torque app for android and a Bluetooth obd scanner. Then export the logs, import in excel and hey presto, instant BMW dealership ammo!!
blutak is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-30-2013, 05:15 PM   #9
HighlandPete
Brigadier General
 
Drives: BMW F11 535i Touring
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Scotland, Highland Region

Posts: 3,901
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by blutak View Post
Haha, can you tell I'm an engineer.... Just using the torque app for android and a Bluetooth obd scanner. Then export the logs, import in excel and hey presto, instant BMW dealership ammo!!
Posted a comment in the other thread, I just despair at how some garages perform such simple tasks.

I think one of the problems, the average mechanic doesn't grasp how the BMW coolant circuit flows, and are not aware the EGR thermostat can short circuit and by-pass the main thermostat.

With a flow of at least 3-litres a minute (from a simple gravity flow test) though a failed EGR 'stat, that's a lot of heat loss and equates to about 18kW from 0 - 90C from some quick calcs. Never mind a pumped circuit and the chilling of cold coolant from the low side of the radiator.

If they don't make a road test and get real time temperatures it means nothing, as a static workshop 'warm up' is not a test at all.

HighlandPete
HighlandPete is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-30-2013, 05:19 PM   #10
coopersim
Captain
 
coopersim's Avatar
 
Drives: VW Lupo
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Berks

Posts: 775
iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by blutak View Post
Haha, can you tell I'm an engineer.... Just using the torque app for android and a Bluetooth obd scanner. Then export the logs, import in excel and hey presto, instant BMW dealership ammo!!
Damn you iPhone! Back to pencil and graph paper for me
coopersim is offline   United Kingdom
0
Reply With Quote
      01-30-2013, 05:20 PM   #11
blutak
New Member
 
Drives: 330D e92
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Manchester,UK

Posts: 15
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by HighlandPete View Post
Posted a comment in the other thread, I just despair at how some garages perform such simple tasks.

I think one of the problems, the average mechanic doesn't grasp how the BMW coolant circuit flows, and are not aware the EGR thermostat can short circuit and by-pass the main thermostat.

With a flow of at least 3-litres a minute (from a simple gravity flow test) though a failed EGR 'stat, that's a lot of heat loss and equates to about 18kW from 0 - 90C from some quick calcs. Never mind a pumped circuit and the chilling of cold coolant from the low side of the radiator.

If they don't make a road test and get real time temperatures it means nothing, as a static workshop 'warm up' is not a test at all.

HighlandPete
Thanks HighlandPete, I'm really new to the BMW game lol, and am spending many hours reading up! Thanks for your help. Hope I can convince them tomorrow...
blutak is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-30-2013, 05:22 PM   #12
blutak
New Member
 
Drives: 330D e92
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Manchester,UK

Posts: 15
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by coopersim View Post
Damn you iPhone! Back to pencil and graph paper for me
Haha there is something similar for iPhones but I'm pretty certain you have to but a WiFi obd reader which are dam expensive!
blutak is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-30-2013, 07:42 PM   #13
PhilM
First Lieutenant
 
PhilM's Avatar
 
Drives: 335d M Sport
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Leeds. UK

Posts: 314
iTrader: (0)

It would be nice if someone who knows what they're doing could post up a good DIY..

I found one on a PDF but it wasn't that clear.
PhilM is offline   United Kingdom
0
Reply With Quote
      01-31-2013, 07:37 AM   #14
Dave_3
Colonel
 
Dave_3's Avatar
 
Drives: F32 430D sDrive Msport
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: CH / SCO

Posts: 2,641
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by blutak View Post
I know im not the only one lol! Its absolutely absurd! Why do these moronic dealers test these valves stationary. I want to see the mechanics face tomorrow when i show them the graphs ive made lol

Where did you get your reference curve? Did that come from your app? Has all the info I was looking for : max temperature, and also predicted dynamic time to reach that temp - though that must have some tolerance due to possible varying engine loads during that time? I'm presuming the app requires you actually road testing, and not static (as Pete also pointed out).

Looking into that app now.

Dave
__________________
Escort Mk1 RS2000 (2.1 2x44IDFS, BVH, Kent FR32, 5spd, 180 BHP) : Fully Loaded F32 430D M Sport sDrive : Previously Full-Spec 335D E92 2006 : Capri MK1 full rebuild in progress

Dave_3 is offline   Scotland
0
Reply With Quote
      01-31-2013, 07:37 AM   #15
mistryn
Lieutenant Colonel
 
mistryn's Avatar
 
Drives: BMW 335D
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Mids

Posts: 1,929
iTrader: (7)

^^ if I am thinking of the same pdf file I followed that and that was really good bar a couple of things missing
mistryn is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-31-2013, 08:13 AM   #16
HighlandPete
Brigadier General
 
Drives: BMW F11 535i Touring
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Scotland, Highland Region

Posts: 3,901
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_3 View Post
....- though that must have some tolerance due to possible varying engine loads during that time? I'm presuming the app requires you actually road testing, and not static (as Pete also pointed out).

Dave
Warm up time will not be a constant, can never be, as you say "engine loads". Then there is the ambient temperature and cooling efficiency. There is quite a bit of natural heat loss in the normal by-pass system around the engine, (even with good thermostats) during warm up. Then there is the HVAC demand, made worse at low temperatures.

I know from my own 330d you can even have temperature drop back during a proper warm up cycle. Simply due to coming off load on a long overrun, as there is just not enough waste heat to spare.

HighlandPete
HighlandPete is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-31-2013, 08:14 AM   #17
HighlandPete
Brigadier General
 
Drives: BMW F11 535i Touring
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Scotland, Highland Region

Posts: 3,901
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mistryn View Post
^^ if I am thinking of the same pdf file I followed that and that was really good bar a couple of things missing
There is definitely a good DIY pdf on this forum, attached to one of the thermostat topics.

HighlandPete
HighlandPete is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-31-2013, 08:38 AM   #18
Dave_3
Colonel
 
Dave_3's Avatar
 
Drives: F32 430D sDrive Msport
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: CH / SCO

Posts: 2,641
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by HighlandPete View Post
Warm up time will not be a constant, can never be, as you say "engine loads". Then there is the ambient temperature and cooling efficiency. There is quite a bit of natural heat loss in the normal by-pass system around the engine, (even with good thermostats) during warm up. Then there is the HVAC demand, made worse at low temperatures.

I know from my own 330d you can even have temperature drop back during a proper warm up cycle. Simply due to coming off load on a long overrun, as there is just not enough waste heat to spare.

HighlandPete
That is why I was wondering where the reference curve comes in that graph. The incline of the graph up to the stable temperature is probably just a best guess (as we both suggested that varies - so it can't be linear as depicted). But intersted in the source of the graph and whether the stable temperature (Tmax) is a fixed value from the manufacturer's data.

My temperatures are very similar to the graph posted - but probably take a bit longer to get to that temperature. Will be interesting to see how you get along, blutak.

D.
__________________
Escort Mk1 RS2000 (2.1 2x44IDFS, BVH, Kent FR32, 5spd, 180 BHP) : Fully Loaded F32 430D M Sport sDrive : Previously Full-Spec 335D E92 2006 : Capri MK1 full rebuild in progress

Dave_3 is offline   Scotland
0
Reply With Quote
      01-31-2013, 11:48 AM   #19
coopersim
Captain
 
coopersim's Avatar
 
Drives: VW Lupo
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Berks

Posts: 775
iTrader: (2)

Changed both mine today and my temp is up to 91 now
coopersim is offline   United Kingdom
0
Reply With Quote
      01-31-2013, 01:55 PM   #20
blutak
New Member
 
Drives: 330D e92
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Manchester,UK

Posts: 15
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_3 View Post
That is why I was wondering where the reference curve comes in that graph. The incline of the graph up to the stable temperature is probably just a best guess (as we both suggested that varies - so it can't be linear as depicted). But intersted in the source of the graph and whether the stable temperature (Tmax) is a fixed value from the manufacturer's data.

My temperatures are very similar to the graph posted - but probably take a bit longer to get to that temperature. Will be interesting to see how you get along, blutak.

D.
No you are correct Dave the ideal temps are just that, a good guess from what people have posted on various forums about running temps etc. I did however get my car back today and as you all probably guessed they didnt change the thermostat. The technician basically said whilst the data i gave them is great and very useful for fault finding they can't use it as evidence of a faulty thermostat.

The tech said he took the car for a test spin around town and it seemed to heat up. It seems that in order for the part to be replaced under warranty it needs to be faulty and since there is no error code produced from this mechanical part they won't replace it. I keep telling them its not that its broken its that its not operating as efficiently as it should be.
Think im just gonna change them myself...



Quote:
Changed both mine today and my temp is up to 91 now
What guide did you use, think im gonna attempt mine soon. Oh and does anyone know what part numbers to order for a 2006 330d e92?

Thanks!
blutak is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-31-2013, 05:16 PM   #21
coopersim
Captain
 
coopersim's Avatar
 
Drives: VW Lupo
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Berks

Posts: 775
iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by blutak View Post
What guide did you use, think im gonna attempt mine soon. Oh and does anyone know what part numbers to order for a 2006 330d e92?

Thanks!

I used this one (attached below) which is written by a member on here (credit shane55 - thank you!)

From Real OEM, looks like yours will be the same as mine for a 325d (same block, so makes sense)

Main stat: 11517805811 - http://realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?...65&hg=11&fg=35
EGR stat: 11717787870 - http://realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?...97&hg=11&fg=50

Don't forget to order this: 11532248435 (O-Ring for EGR stat) and a bottle of BMW coolant at the same time.
Attached Images
File Type: pdf Thermostat change 330d.pdf (368.9 KB, 56 views)

Last edited by coopersim; 01-31-2013 at 05:19 PM. Reason: Add credit
coopersim is offline   United Kingdom
0
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:25 AM.




e90post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST