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      01-14-2013, 02:26 PM   #1
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      01-15-2013, 09:45 AM   #2
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I have a feeling that the M division is going down.
Mercedes-Benz E63 S AMG 4Matic + Audi RS7= death to F10 M and F06 M.

I hope that BMW will step up their game when they introduce the LCI M5. It will have to have the ability to keep up with the top of the line E63's ~3.4seconds to sprint to 60mph from a standstill. That is just an indication of the performance the E63 will provide. Oh, and don't forget the CLS AMG, it will be the same.

What is going? Aside from this, an iconic BMW such as the 3 series has worse steering than a Cadillac, and the CLA, recently introduced in Detroit by Mercedes, will compete with the 3 series.

Wake up BMW, create the Ultimate Driving Machine.
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      01-15-2013, 10:20 AM   #3
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I have a feeling that the M division is going down.
Mercedes-Benz E63 S AMG 4Matic + Audi RS7= death to F10 M and F06 M.

I hope that BMW will step up their game when they introduce the LCI M5. It will have to have the ability to keep up with the top of the line E63's ~3.4seconds to sprint to 60mph from a standstill. That is just an indication of the performance the E63 will provide. Oh, and don't forget the CLS AMG, it will be the same.

What is going? Aside from this, an iconic BMW such as the 3 series has worse steering than a Cadillac, and the CLA, recently introduced in Detroit by Mercedes, will compete with the 3 series.

Wake up BMW, create the Ultimate Driving Machine.


I was pushed into an Audi for the first time (2013 S4). I really hope the M division doesn't go down, but I am a little worried.
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      01-15-2013, 11:19 AM   #4
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To me, it feels like BMW is playing catchup in this segment. The CLS came out 2004, A7 was in 2010, and the 6 GC just came out last year. As a result, they've had a chance to run the first iterations of these cars for a few years, while BMW just had last year to analyze. To be honest, BMW seems to be only playing catch up as they are too busy rolling in their success with the 3 series. The 5 series is just in level with the E class, and I think Audi is owning in the full-size class (A8 vs 7 series) [No backup info to claim this].

In regards to issues with BMW not being the Ultimate Driving Machine anymore, as an overall package, which includes luxury, driving dynamics, and cost, BMW is still the top leader. In the 3 class, no other car is in the same level. Are other cars better in some respects? Of course. Some cars have a better value price-wise, some might have better performance. But they all have faults, whereas the 3 makes up for those faults. So in a music equalizer sense, other cars are like the different settings, while the 3 is mostly even.

The RS7 definitely competes with M6 directly. Which looks better? The RS7 to me looks absolutely bad ass, but the 6 just grew on me. I like the 6 rear better than the RS7.
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      01-15-2013, 07:59 PM   #5
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To me, it feels like BMW is playing catchup in this segment. The CLS came out 2004, A7 was in 2010, and the 6 GC just came out last year. As a result, they've had a chance to run the first iterations of these cars for a few years, while BMW just had last year to analyze. To be honest, BMW seems to be only playing catch up as they are too busy rolling in their success with the 3 series. The 5 series is just in level with the E class, and I think Audi is owning in the full-size class (A8 vs 7 series) [No backup info to claim this].

In regards to issues with BMW not being the Ultimate Driving Machine anymore, as an overall package, which includes luxury, driving dynamics, and cost, BMW is still the top leader. In the 3 class, no other car is in the same level. Are other cars better in some respects? Of course. Some cars have a better value price-wise, some might have better performance. But they all have faults, whereas the 3 makes up for those faults. So in a music equalizer sense, other cars are like the different settings, while the 3 is mostly even.

The RS7 definitely competes with M6 directly. Which looks better? The RS7 to me looks absolutely bad ass, but the 6 just grew on me. I like the 6 rear better than the RS7.
The 3 is king. No question. Manufactures are attempting to build a 911 rival and I think BMW has had this for years, the M3. It'll be more so with the intro of the next M4. BMW has to dig deep and cut the BS and build cars like they do best. Cars that outperform every other car in its segment and keep up with those above its intended target.

I have to give it to the RS7. It just looks so mechanical and fast, while the M6 looks more organic and fluid. To each his own. I wonder how the Audi drives?
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      01-15-2013, 08:26 PM   #6
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In regards to issues with BMW not being the Ultimate Driving Machine anymore, as an overall package, which includes luxury, driving dynamics, and cost, BMW is still the top leader. In the 3 class, no other car is in the same level. Are other cars better in some respects? Of course. Some cars have a better value price-wise, some might have better performance. But they all have faults, whereas the 3 makes up for those faults. So in a music equalizer sense, other cars are like the different settings, while the 3 is mostly even.
I disagree. The A4/S4 is a better overall package than the 328/335. In the past, Audi had better interiors and all weather capability while BMW had better dry weather performance. The first two points are still true, while the last one is no longer the case. Take S4 vs. 335i, for example. Same price when comparatively equipped but the S4 is significantly faster, has better grip, better build quality (no huge gaps between body panels), not to mention much better interior and exterior design. BMW is just resting on its laurels and if they continue to do so, they will suffer the same fate as Mercedes.
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      01-16-2013, 06:28 AM   #7
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M6 GranCoupť only looks good. But alot of details are lacking. 6 Series/M6 is like Maserati, good looking, but not best in anything else. More, it lacks image and sound.
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      01-16-2013, 07:42 AM   #8
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I disagree. The A4/S4 is a better overall package than the 328/335. In the past, Audi had better interiors and all weather capability while BMW had better dry weather performance. The first two points are still true, while the last one is no longer the case. Take S4 vs. 335i, for example. Same price when comparatively equipped but the S4 is significantly faster, has better grip, better build quality (no huge gaps between body panels), not to mention much better interior and exterior design. BMW is just resting on its laurels and if they continue to do so, they will suffer the same fate as Mercedes.
I personally think the F30 has equal the interior quality than the S4, if not better. Interior and exterior design qualities are up to the beholder, and I personally think the F30 MSport look is unrivaled by the S4, or almost any car in its class. Let's not forget that F30 has the HUD, which itself is life changing. The S4 comes better equipped as a package, while the F30 requires more specific configuration (making sure to get summer tires as well as DHP) to get the same package.

One thing that the S4 can never match is gas mileage. That Quattro, though brilliant, is not fuel efficient. Can't be helped there I guess.
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      01-16-2013, 09:08 AM   #9
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I personally think the F30 has equal the interior quality than the S4, if not better. Interior and exterior design qualities are up to the beholder, and I personally think the F30 MSport look is unrivaled by the S4, or almost any car in its class. Let's not forget that F30 has the HUD, which itself is life changing. The S4 comes better equipped as a package, while the F30 requires more specific configuration (making sure to get summer tires as well as DHP) to get the same package.

One thing that the S4 can never match is gas mileage. That Quattro, though brilliant, is not fuel efficient. Can't be helped there I guess.
what are you getting for mileage?
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      01-16-2013, 11:30 AM   #10
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Audi is killing it lately. RS7 is hotter than anything BMW's got right now.

Its funny, the S6 is a better car than the new M5, the S8 is better than the 7 series...years ago this wasnt the case but Audi has really made a great turn for the better while BMW seems to be trending downward on cars Id actually want to drive.

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I personally think the F30 has equal the interior quality than the S4, if not better. Interior and exterior design qualities are up to the beholder, and I personally think the F30 MSport look is unrivaled by the S4, or almost any car in its class. Let's not forget that F30 has the HUD, which itself is life changing. The S4 comes better equipped as a package, while the F30 requires more specific configuration (making sure to get summer tires as well as DHP) to get the same package.

One thing that the S4 can never match is gas mileage. That Quattro, though brilliant, is not fuel efficient. Can't be helped there I guess.
I disagree with you on interior quality...it is not up to the quality or design the Audi is, especially if you consider the BMW F30 is brand new and the Audi B8 platform is a few years old now. I personally think they are both good looking cars, but the Audi exudes more class and refinement that BMW cannot match. And paint quality, BMW is a joke wheras Audi is right near the top.
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      01-16-2013, 12:13 PM   #11
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bananas! time for bmw to pump up the volume, I mean power on the M motor to 600hp.
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      01-16-2013, 12:13 PM   #12
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bananas! time for bmw to pump up the volume, I mean power on the M motor to 600hp.
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      01-16-2013, 01:02 PM   #13
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I disagree. The A4/S4 is a better overall package than the 328/335. In the past, Audi had better interiors and all weather capability while BMW had better dry weather performance. The first two points are still true, while the last one is no longer the case. Take S4 vs. 335i, for example. Same price when comparatively equipped but the S4 is significantly faster, has better grip, better build quality (no huge gaps between body panels), not to mention much better interior and exterior design. BMW is just resting on its laurels and if they continue to do so, they will suffer the same fate as Mercedes.
The S4 is a great package in "whole" itís no better than the 328/335i. They both have their strong points. I think largely the build quality and interior styling is pretty even, even though I prefer the BMW.

S4 is a more expensive car so it has some things I wish I had like Nappa Leather, that badass steering wheel, and gorgeous shifter. To be honest price was not a factor the extra $100 to $150 would not have swayed me but the S4 is a more expensive car no matter if you lease or buy.

That being said the 335i has its positive points as well...RWD (nothing is more fun), IDRIVE (I hate MMI as much as the crappy screen itís on), BMW Perks (European Delivery at the Welt and the Performance Center), Cheaper, and more options for tuning without voiding your warranty.

Now the S4 may be 3 to 4 tenths faster the first time you run (heatsoak sucks on the engine) but I can spend $379 on a JB piggyback and be faster all day while still keeping my warranty. As for grip change the tires like a lot do and the S4 will be behind the 335i.

These were the two cars I decided to buy so I drove both at least 4 times even on a racetrack once. The S4 is an amazing car and so is the 335i to me there just different. I am not trying to vindicate my purchase either, I wish I had the S4 steering wheel, Nappa leather, and shifter every day I drive my car but "you can't have your cake and eat it too"
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      01-16-2013, 01:12 PM   #14
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Audi is killing it lately. RS7 is hotter than anything BMW's got right now.

Its funny, the S6 is a better car than the new M5, the S8 is better than the 7 series...years ago this wasnt the case but Audi has really made a great turn for the better while BMW seems to be trending downward on cars Id actually want to drive.
I love the A7 but I dont think the RS7 looks that much better. It shoud be fast as hell and the interior looks awesome. I hate the A6/A7 shifter ugly as hell.

But the S6 is not anywhere near the BMW M5. Its fast in a straight line but after seeing how slow it is on a race track it is dissapointing. Its less then 3 seconds slower at VIR then a 335i with Runflats! and is plagued with bad understeer. $80,000 no thank you, i also notice they are having a lot of engine problems and people selling them to buy the cheaper and better handling RS5.
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      01-16-2013, 01:18 PM   #15
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I love the A7 but I dont think the RS7 looks that much better. It shoud be fast as hell and the interior looks awesome. I hate the A6/A7 shifter ugly as hell.

But the S6 is not anywhere near the BMW M5. Its fast in a straight line but after seeing how slow it is on a race track it is dissapointing. Its less then 3 seconds slower at VIR then a 335i with Runflats! and is plagued with bad understeer. $80,000 no thank you, i also notice they are having a lot of engine problems and people selling them to buy the cheaper and better handling RS5.
Its not supposed to be, it is competition for the 550

I was looking at one yesterday, then I went home and built both cars (S6 and 550xi) on line, with MSport and equal options the BMW was more expensive.
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      01-16-2013, 01:32 PM   #16
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Its not supposed to be, it is competition for the 550

I was looking at one yesterday, then I went home and built both cars (S6 and 550xi) on line, with MSport and equal options the BMW was more expensive.
You may have built a car for more but you can buy a 550 a lot cheaper from BMW that are built simular. But why buy an AWD BMW to me thats silly.


I dont understand the whole steering comment. Audi has the numbest steering out there.

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      01-16-2013, 01:40 PM   #17
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You may have built a car for more but you can buy a 550 a lot cheaper from BMW that are built simular. But why buy an AWD BMW to me thats silly.
Because putting chains on sucks.

Also a recent test of the 6 series 4 door, vs A7 vs CLS all wheel drive. The six series was the only car that had the carryover hyd. power steering instead of electric (evidently the electric wouldn't fit will all wheel drive) and it was the car with the best steering feel.
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      01-16-2013, 01:48 PM   #18
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Because putting chains on sucks.

Also a recent test of the 6 series 4 door, vs A7 vs CLS all wheel drive. The six series was the only car that had the carryover hyd. power steering instead of electric (evidently the electric wouldn't fit will all wheel drive) and it was the car with the best steering feel.
Then I donít understand why buy a large sports car. You hit black ice youíre going to slide longer the more weight you have . I am more worried about the move to AWD then electric steering. Thatís why I love BMW's RWD philosophy.
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      01-16-2013, 02:05 PM   #19
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Then I donít understand why buy a large sports car. You hit black ice youíre going to slide longer the more weight you have . I am more worried about the move to AWD then electric steering. Thatís why I love BMW's RWD philosophy.
Not really, either way you are going to slide until something stops you.

AWD doesn't have to be bad, I do hope it stays out of the M division I also hope electric power steering stays out of M, I would like to have another M5 some day.

To get the acceleration numbers that we are all starting to expect AWD is becoming necessary in these super sedans.
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      01-16-2013, 02:21 PM   #20
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Not really, either way you are going to slide until something stops you.

AWD doesn't have to be bad, I do hope it stays out of the M division I also hope electric power steering stays out of M, I would like to have another M5 some day.

To get the acceleration numbers that we are all starting to expect AWD is becoming necessary in these super sedans.
Yes really, physics 101 basic rules of mass and inertia. A heavier object will take more to stop it.

AWD is not bad at all. For somethings it is amazing! Racing in rain, people who don't know how to drive, and insurance companies.

Have you drove the new M5? I got to drive one at the performance center. It is a beast when you want it and a luxury boat when you want it.
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      01-16-2013, 02:41 PM   #21
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Yes really, physics 101 basic rules of mass and inertia. A heavier object will take more to stop it.

AWD is not bad at all. For somethings it is amazing! Racing in rain, people who don't know how to drive, and insurance companies.

Have you drove the new M5? I got to drive one at the performance center. It is a beast when you want it and a luxury boat when you want it.
I assure you it matters very little when your coefficient of friction is at or close to zero if your car weighs 3700lbs or 3800lbs.

I have not driven the new M5 (I don't like to plant those seeds in my head until I am ready to buy), but the V-10 in the E60 was absolutely fantastic, the chassis was great too for such a large car. The only thing that let it down was SMG, fuel economy was terrible but I could have forgiven that.
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      01-16-2013, 02:48 PM   #22
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I WAS AN AVID AUDI-er with Audi A6 being my first luxury car purchase after college ....that being said, once I drove my first BMWs (the E46 M3 and the E60 M5) I have never even looked at Audis.....seriously, no match for BMWs...absolutely no match....
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