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      07-03-2014, 04:55 AM   #1
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North American 335d EGR Valve Delete

Thought this might be worth a new thread...

So, the EGR on the North American variant of the 335d is different from the European version. We get an electronic version. From the BMW Diesel Technology pdf

Compared to the European version, the high pressure EGR is equipped with the following special features:

Electric EGR valve with positional feedback
Temperature sensor before high pressure EGR valve

EGR cooler with bypass.


This is an initial attempt to bypass the large bottle neck in the intake track caused by the EGR valve. See attached Pic #1 for images of the bottle neck and the weight of the item (most of the weight is in the motor).

Some good web pages for calculating various pressure drops versus dimensions and surface roughness (with carbon buildup the surface of the intake track becomes less smooth):


http://www.pressure-drop.com/Online-Calculator/

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/ai...ity-d_601.html

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/ai...ity-d_771.html

The nominal diameter of the throttle and EGR are ~ 2 inches. Which is very sufficient for some large flow .... but with the EGR bottle neck and then carbon buildup ... seems like it could be a limiting factor based on playing with the above websites.
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      07-03-2014, 05:02 AM   #2
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The modification that was performed involved cutting the motor assembly from the air passage. The shaft was also removed to see if anything interesting happened compared to using the original EGR valve assembly which would still have the shaft/position feedback. The shaft opening was tapped for a 1/4" NPT threads (it was about the right size) and then a stainless 1/4" NPT plug was used to close off that passage. A simple aluminum cut out with holes was fashioned to block the exhaust path similar to the previous mode of operation (had deleted the EGR cooler last year). The detached motor assembly is secured to the front driver side engine acoustic cover bolt hole. See attached picture for more details.

Previously the EGR motor connector had been detached and car immediately went into limp mode. Now the detached motor from above without the shaft is connected in place of the original EGR valve. This caused some very interesting behavior.

First, the car does not go into limp mode. Second, the fact that the EGR position sensor is not getting a signal forces the requested EGR to go to 0 in all observed conditions (previously, even though blocked, the requested EGR% was bouncing around and sometimes calling for large % of EGR). Thirdly, the use of post injection has been completely eliminated, which I really, really like. Previously post injection was used to raise EGT's during cold start behaviors and continued for the first ~4-5 minutes of driving. Now it doesn't use post injection at all. See attached plot of Bav Tech recorded data for demonstration of the new behavior.
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      07-03-2014, 05:06 AM   #3
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There is a new pending fault code that gets thrown related to the EGR position sensor.

I have not observed any power improvement from this mod. Don't think the minimal buildup of carbon on my intake/EGR valve (have had no EGR utilization for most of the miles on the car, as well as using water/methanol injection) was causing enough of a restriction to limit anything.

The Bav Tech data is still showing the DDE is requesting the same level of torque across RPM as previously measured. No observable negative impacts to power, torque or mpg's have been observed.

So, even though I'm not able to quantify a performance increase, I am glad to see the elimination of post injection and the DDE calling for 0 EGR.

Now, I may have to ask Stan if he can remove one more code...
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      07-03-2014, 11:04 AM   #4
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nice, hopefully all of these improvement will be incorporated into his tune
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      07-03-2014, 03:24 PM   #5
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I'm surprised the unblocked throat wouldn't have helped some. Perhaps the speed of the air flow isn't high enough. Diesel runs at a 20:1 A/F ratio vs around 14:1 for petrol. You are now theoretically supplying extra air. To use the extra air, wouldn't more fuel be needed?

I got a diesel theory text book from 1/2 price books the other day. The thermodynamics has gotten quite involved but this heat transfer guy somewhat understands it.
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      07-03-2014, 04:51 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TDIwyse View Post
...I have not observed any power improvement from this mod...

The Bav Tech data is still showing the DDE is requesting the same level of torque across RPM as previously measured. No observable negative impacts to power, torque or mpg's have been observed.

So, even though I'm not able to quantify a performance increase, I am glad to see the elimination of post injection and the DDE calling for 0 EGR...
Bummer that no more power. But awesome that no post-injection, should save a bit of MPG. And zero EGR utilization is cool as well.

I was ready to buy a used EGR...
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      07-04-2014, 07:09 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BB_cuda View Post
I'm surprised the unblocked throat wouldn't have helped some. Perhaps the speed of the air flow isn't high enough. Diesel runs at a 20:1 A/F ratio vs around 14:1 for petrol. You are now theoretically supplying extra air. To use the extra air, wouldn't more fuel be needed?

I got a diesel theory text book from 1/2 price books the other day. The thermodynamics has gotten quite involved but this heat transfer guy somewhat understands it.
Think this would be true if the car wasn't operating under a closed loop condition. For instance, the DDE calls for a certain boost (and certain fuel injection amount), and the MAP sensor is on the intake (on the other side of the EGR valve thing that was modified), so the system seems to have enough capability to be able to overcome the pressure drop of the EGR bottleneck and supply the MAP sensor with enough air even at the elevated power levels the car is operating at (see attached Bav Tech Data from recent analysis... lots of data being taken so the time step is a bit course with low resolution). If enough carbon was being built up I'd expect an eventual issue to arise where the requested boost couldn't be achieved.

Even though I'm not able to quantify a power increase (the DDE could already get the desired boost and injection quantity it wanted) the turbo should have to work less hard to supply the desired boost as there's less loss in the system.
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      07-04-2014, 02:20 PM   #8
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Is fueling based upon boost pressure and not mass flow rate of air ?
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      07-04-2014, 03:42 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BB_cuda View Post
Is fueling based upon boost pressure and not mass flow rate of air ?
Oh boy, it appears to me to be based on A LOT of things. But basically it appears the DDE sets what it "wants" and then uses a bunch of sensors to "check" that the system is acting like it should. If so, it's happy. The EGR bottle neck (at least in my car at the environment conditions being examined) was not enough to cause the system to not be able to achieve the performance the DDE was calling for, so improving the flow capability doesn't appear to help (because it didn't need more flow than what it was already getting to achieve what it was trying to do). At least in my car with the modifications I'm running.

In my older, less complicated diesels with much less closed loop control, it was a lot easier to improve performance by simply altering intake/exhaust/injectors/etc...
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      07-04-2014, 05:45 PM   #10
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I'm not very knowlegible of our fuel management. That makes sense that many factors are watched by the DDE. So, at least you learned of stopping the post injection. Your happiness on this sounds like the experiment was worth while. Congrats
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      07-05-2014, 01:40 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TDIwyse View Post
So, even though I'm not able to quantify a performance increase, I am glad to see the elimination of post injection and the DDE calling for 0 EGR.
It just occurred to me. As far as I know, post injection is mainly related to the DPF regen to increase EGTs and to first start up to bring the emission system up to operating temperature faster. What I'm curious to know if the elimination of post injection that you have noticed is related to just the warm up issue or to both. My assumption is of course that if the DPF is deleted then post injection related to it should be coded out. Would love to hear your thoughts on this.
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      07-05-2014, 06:56 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yozh View Post
... My assumption is of course that if the DPF is deleted then post injection related to it should be coded out. Would love to hear your thoughts on this.
Yes, the post injection for regens would already be removed by Ecotune if you get their remap with downpipe.
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      07-05-2014, 12:42 PM   #13
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Thank you for confirming this.
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      07-17-2014, 04:53 PM   #14
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So just wanted to know, at the end if the day TDI are you running the modified egr or did you go back to stock? I agree with BB, more air, more fuel, more power? So maby we could raise boost pressure via programing to harness to extra air flow? What is the capacity,(max psi) our turbo's are capable of? It seams no one here is really raising the psi,( at least from what I have read) they are deleting dfp's and programming attaining more power with relatively the same boost pressures, with better air flow of course. Unless I'm wrong? My car stock before JBD was relitively the same as it was after it was added??
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      07-17-2014, 07:08 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtp900 View Post
So just wanted to know, at the end if the day TDI are you running the modified egr or did you go back to stock? I agree with BB, more air, more fuel, more power? So maby we could raise boost pressure via programing to harness to extra air flow? What is the capacity,(max psi) our turbo's are capable of? It seams no one here is really raising the psi,( at least from what I have read) they are deleting dfp's and programming attaining more power with relatively the same boost pressures, with better air flow of course. Unless I'm wrong? My car stock before JBD was relitively the same as it was after it was added??
Still running the modified EGR. I like having no post injection at all.

Both the Evolve and Ecotune remaps I've ran raise the requested and actual boost pressure above stock. Stock (and with JBD) psi on the map sensor was measuing ~26.5 psi above normal atmospheric pressure (so ~ 41 psi max or ~2830 mbar absolute... the map sensor gives absolute pressure). Evolve boosted max absolute pressure to ~3000 mbar. Ecotune pushed it a bit higher with the dpf delete to ~3100 mbar. This is getting a bit outside the efficiency map for our stock turbo setup, but the EGT's I'm measuring are really good, even for sustained 1/4 mile pulls, so the system is getting enough air for these power levels.
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      07-17-2014, 07:44 PM   #16
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Confused about post injection. Earlier when Yozh asked if Ecotune DPF delete were in play would post injection be off and you said yes. But you are happy to now see it "really gone" after hogging out another EGR abd plugging in the motor to harness. But you were already Ecotune coded. Did I miss something or perhaps this post injection is only happening during warm up prior to your "hogged out EGR" test?

EDIT: I went back and read your 2nd post in this thread and it is that precisely. Post injection for first few minutes of operation to raise temps. I need to go talk to the dealer tech and see if he has a junk EGR valve yet. Did you get your from eBay or what?

Last edited by BB_cuda; 07-17-2014 at 07:55 PM.
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      07-17-2014, 08:18 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BB_cuda View Post
Confused about post injection. Earlier when Yozh asked if Ecotune DPF delete were in play would post injection be off and you said yes. But you are happy to now see it "really gone" after hogging out another EGR abd plugging in the motor to harness. But you were already Ecotune coded. Did I miss something or perhaps this post injection is only happening during warm up prior to your "hogged out EGR" test?

EDIT: I went back and read your 2nd post in this thread and it is that precisely. Post injection for first few minutes of operation to raise temps. I need to go talk to the dealer tech and see if he has a junk EGR valve yet. Did you get your from eBay or what?
Your edit has it correct. Two observed conditions I measured post injection being utilized: Initial exhaust system warm up and DPF regeneration.

Ecotune took out the DPF regen utilizaiton, but left the warmup in place. See this data from all the way back toward the beginning of the DPF Delete thread:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...&postcount=125

With the EGR mod the warmup utilization is now also gone. Have not observed any use of post injection since running this mod with the Ecotune remap.

Spare EGR came from eBay.
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      07-17-2014, 08:43 PM   #18
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Need some further clarification here if you don't mind TDIwyse:


Quote:
"Still running the modified EGR. I like having no post injection at all.

Both the Evolve and Ecotune remaps I've ran raise the requested and actual boost pressure above stock. Stock (and with JBD) psi on the map sensor was measuing ~26.5 psi above normal atmospheric pressure (so ~ 41 psi max or ~2830 mbar absolute... the map sensor gives absolute pressure). Evolve boosted max absolute pressure to ~3000 mbar. Ecotune pushed it a bit higher with the dpf delete to ~3100 mbar. This is getting a bit outside the efficiency map for our stock turbo setup, but the EGT's I'm measuring are really good, even for sustained 1/4 mile pulls, so the system is getting enough air for these power levels."

So we have a local guy here who is getting a tune this Saturday with EGR and SCR delete. He wants to know where the absolute pressure on the MAP sensor was while you had DPF in place. Also, when you say:


Quote:
"Ecotune pushed it a bit higher with the dpf delete to ~3100 mbar."
Is that to account for removing the DPF with the turbos now spooling up faster, fueling increasing and also you are removing back pressure off the turbos?

Thanks.
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      07-17-2014, 09:27 PM   #19
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The boost being requested should be whatever the map calls for. Evolve mapping just wasn't calling for quite as much boost as the Ecotune mapping is calling for.

Ecotune claims to have done some unique things to control the rate of boost rise to keep from overspeeding the turbo with the reduced back pressure from the delete. This would show up on the "desired boost" vs "actual boost" from the Bav Tech data. Actual boost is read from the MAP sensor. I was very careful to measure these two parameters as I was building up to full fueling tests with the gutted DPF canister and the Ecotune downpipe. So far I have not measured any over boost with the Ecotune stuff.

The DDE7 uses a whole bunch of parameters in terms of requesting things and then checking versus what it measures from the sensors to adapt and balance the system...
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      07-18-2014, 08:43 AM   #20
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Gracias TDi and everyone I learned a little more on my car, those DAMN sensors.
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      07-18-2014, 10:45 AM   #21
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now that the car has had some time to adapt, any increase to be seen yet? Not surprised that there is not a peak number to be gained or at least not much, but I am a bit surprised that there doesnt seem to be area under the curve gained. Turbo should be able to operate a bit more efficiently providing slightly more boost at the manifold with the same wastegate setting as before. Maybe the only difference to be seen here is the potential for marginally lower IATs since the computer is in such tight control of everything else nothing changes?

Have you noticed any MPG difference?
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      07-18-2014, 03:50 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoooper View Post
now that the car has had some time to adapt, any increase to be seen yet? Not surprised that there is not a peak number to be gained or at least not much, but I am a bit surprised that there doesnt seem to be area under the curve gained. Turbo should be able to operate a bit more efficiently providing slightly more boost at the manifold with the same wastegate setting as before. Maybe the only difference to be seen here is the potential for marginally lower IATs since the computer is in such tight control of everything else nothing changes?

Have you noticed any MPG difference?
I think you're correct that the turbo could be operating more efficiently because it doesn't have to work as hard. But I haven't been to the track since to check sustained EGT's on a long pull to see if that has done anything to help. And the pulls on the public roads aren't long enough to get EGT's above 1000F. The IAT's are dominated by the methanol injection pulling temps down to ~ ambient or lower under full boost, so I'm not noticing any improvements to IAT's.

3 fillups has shown another slight step increase in mpg's. 2 of those were just above 40 mpg's each for normal commuting back and forth to work. Improvement is likely from the elimination of post injection. But it's still a little early and preliminary to know for sure.

I don't see any evidence of more power or boost. The DDE wants to see a certain boost level (desired), and it hasn't changed. The measured MAP boost (actual) is lining up with the desired like it should. If it was making more boost at the MAP than the DDE is calling for it would just try to adjust the system to lower the boost...
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