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      02-08-2013, 02:58 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasimodem View Post
It is about the FEELING that you are in CONTROL.

As you will note from all the posts here, people dont care about fuel economy, people dont care if it a little slower for the average driver, people dont care if they cant drink a cup of coffee and accelerate on tight turns.....

People here are CONTROL freaks. (nothing wrong with that)

And they have to do things which make them FEEL like they are in CONTROL.

Anytime you put more work into something, you will feel more accomplishment. Will you feel better if you watch a movie about somebody climbing Mt. Everest or you actually watching a movie about YOU climbing Mt. Everest?

The gear shift has transmorphed from a necessity to another device we use to make us feel like we are in control of what is going on. In addition, it allows those of us to express ourselves to others around who can hear our engines scream way beyond the ideal RPMs for gear change.
i understand what you're trying to say, but those are poor examples.

work smarter, not harder, and you'll feel better about yourself.

comparing shifting with a 3rd pedal to shifting with a computer both have the same end result.

from my experience, the grass is always greener on the other side. I know many MT guys who would prefer an auto now, and vice versa. You eventually get tired of whatever you have. In the perfect world, we'd all meet up and swap around our transmissions for $500 labor.
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      02-08-2013, 02:58 PM   #68
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NO not me. I like the steptronic option in my car. Being in traffic sucks having a manual. Im just glad I dont have a third pedal.
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      02-08-2013, 03:51 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoTempoLimitN54 View Post

1. Manual transmission 335i is NOT slower. BMW's published data shows 0-60 mph 0.2 seconds faster than AT. Only the 335is/M3 DCT is faster than the manual.
But the majority of magazine tests show the e90 AT is faster 0-60 than the manual. A few members who track their cars have mentioned an a/t e90 will beat a manual e90 off the line nearly every time.

BMW's data never seems right, just look at their always conservative HP/TQ numbers.
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      02-08-2013, 04:32 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dozhdbog View Post
But the majority of magazine tests show the e90 AT is faster 0-60 than the manual. A few members who track their cars have mentioned an a/t e90 will beat a manual e90 off the line nearly every time.

BMW's data never seems right, just look at their always conservative HP/TQ numbers.
i think what people mean by "faster" is the ability to shift quicker in an auto or gear ratios. not magazines' 0-60 figures
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      02-08-2013, 06:11 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by tofu- View Post
i think what people mean by "faster" is the ability to shift quicker in an auto or gear ratios. not magazines' 0-60 figures
Oh. In that case the A/T wins again. It shifts at around 400ms, much faster than a professional can shift with any consistency.
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      02-08-2013, 06:17 PM   #72
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Sell your AT and buy a MT if you regret it. MT are great but AT are the future. Smoother and faster.
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      02-08-2013, 06:26 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dozhdbog View Post
Oh. In that case the A/T wins again. It shifts at around 400ms, much faster than a professional can shift with any consistency.
not when you take into consideration how long it takes to initiate a shift from the time you press the paddle or pull back the shifter to the time the shift completes.

with NLS, auto and manual are prob about the same as far as shifting goes (when taking the delay into consideration). One just takes more effort than the other
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      02-08-2013, 06:30 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tofu- View Post
not when you take into consideration how long it takes to initiate a shift from the time you press the paddle or pull back the shifter to the time the shift completes.

with NLS, auto and manual are prob about the same as far as shifting goes (when taking the delay into consideration). One just takes more effort than the other
It's called timing. There is no delay if you compensate for the delay. (and said delay isn't very much in the first place)

A competent a/t shifter vs a competent stick shifter in e90's -all else being equal- results in the a/t shifter winning a drag race nearly every time.

This has been discussed to death in this forum, btw. I can't believe this is even up for discussion anymore.
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      02-09-2013, 12:14 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dozhdbog View Post
It's called timing. There is no delay if you compensate for the delay. (and said delay isn't very much in the first place)

A competent a/t shifter vs a competent stick shifter in e90's -all else being equal- results in the a/t shifter winning a drag race nearly every time.

This has been discussed to death in this forum, btw. I can't believe this is even up for discussion anymore.
no one ever said MT shifted faster...

all of this "skilled MT shifter vs AT shifter" talk is horse shit. a "skilled" (whatever that means) MT shifter with NLS can pretty much match auto shifting speed, with or without the delay. AT sets drag racing records because of the shorter first gear and easy-mode launching, not shift speed.


in daily driving, the AT shift initiation delay is freaking horrible. it is almost as long as the shift itself, and it is a complete pain in the ass to compensate for a delay unless you're doing the same straight line drag over and over again. When i tell my car to shift, i want my car to start shifting, not wait half a second then begin. A delay is not something I want to think about when I'm trying to have fun.
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      02-09-2013, 12:20 AM   #76
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Yes all the time..
It was just so hard to find a MT
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      02-09-2013, 12:32 AM   #77
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Ahh the classic debate rages on again... for me I love my auto trans, but I'll be honest if it wasn't my dd I wouldn't have anything but a manual. However, I would probably not have a 335 either haha but I digress... the auto is perfect for me but to each his own.

BTW I thought it was in agreement that the a/t is faster...
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      02-09-2013, 03:42 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasimodem View Post
It is about the FEELING that you are in CONTROL.

As you will note from all the posts here, people dont care about fuel economy, people dont care if it a little slower for the average driver, people dont care if they cant drink a cup of coffee and accelerate on tight turns.....

People here are CONTROL freaks. (nothing wrong with that)

And they have to do things which make them FEEL like they are in CONTROL.
I agree it's about control, but it's not an illusion. It is reality. What I hated most about ALL AT cars I've driven was the fact that sometimes the transmission would shift mid turn, or sometimes, you floor it and it would downshift immediately, sometimes, it would pause a bit and then shift. Or worse yet, in my Acura TSX, I would be pulling out in traffic and I'd gun it and the transmission would stall for a split second before catching and peeling out.

ATs just do not provide as much direct control as MTs. That's a fact, not just something we MT owners "feel" to be true. In an MT, you can shift EXACTLY when you want, exactly how you want (rough fast shift or leisurely easy smooth shift). You can downshift in the middle of a turn and match revs to seamlessly place the car in the correct gear without upsetting the balance of the car. You can shift from 1st to 6th gear if you want. You can downshift from 6th to 2nd gear, etc. Any way you want it, that's the way you have it with a MT.

The control is precisely why MTs are so much fun and preferred over AT. It is not the "feeling" of control, it's the actual control you have.
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      02-09-2013, 06:37 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisk03 View Post
In this context, yes, I miss having a manual, although I think BMW needs to hang out with Honda engineers with respect to manual transmissions. My Si manual felt 10x better than the BMW's.
I agree with you the stock shifter isn't that great. I corrected it by

cdv delete
short throw kit
sport knob

these three thing will greatly enhance the stock experience.

Inversely, I sometimes wish I got an AT so I could trade cars with my wife. Someone said earlier, "Grass isn't always greener" ... so true.
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      02-09-2013, 12:17 PM   #80
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My previous car (E90 328i sedan) was a manual and now my current car is also a manual. Absolutely love it. I feel so bored and disconnected when driving an automatic. My brain always "zones out" and before I realize it, I'm at my destination.
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      02-09-2013, 04:11 PM   #81
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yes, I am pretty sure everyone does
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      02-09-2013, 07:46 PM   #82
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I drove MTs for the first ten years of my driving career: a manual Volvo 244 (4 cylinder), a manual ford Fiesta (yes it was Yellow) and a Mustang 4 cylinder 2.3 liter with a German-made (T-5 I think) transmission. Back then, there were significant advantages in a stick. Not anymore. Well, except if you have to drop the transmission - manhandling my Mustang tranny was a piece of cake.

I know the feeling of racking through the gears and hanging onto that stick. You certainly get the feeling that you are an integral part of the machine and you get more satisfaction from a drive. I remember getting the feeling like I was pushing the car to go faster when shifting gears. heh It's like a drug, maybe even a crutch. But heck, why do we all pay more for BMWs than other cars which are more efficient and reliable. I dont claim to be immune from the ego benefits of a performance status symbol.

I dont know why BMW gives their manual tranny cars a faster 0 to 60 time, but like others say, that is not real world results. Keep in mind, BMW has a line of cars and they try to sell all of them to a market segment so that they can sell more cars in toto. For example, there is no way BMW is going to say "why not buy a 335i, you can get an aftermarket chip and drive faster than a M3" because their M3 market segment would be cannibalized by the 335i modders. Sure that is an extreme example, but it is a good example of what happens when one model out-performs its "segment" and infringes on another segment of a manufactures line of vehicles. I would not put it past BMW to fudge the numbers so as not to piss off buyers of the other supposedly higher-performing model. How this applies to MTs I dont know. But BMW results do not reflect real-world tests. And if they always did, then nobody would do their own tests anyway.

Anyway, there are so many people out there who have convinced themselves that they must have a MT or they would just die, it is good to see that it is available. Long live the Clutch!!
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      02-09-2013, 09:11 PM   #83
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I had an auto 335, then a manual 335 and hated it, then got another auto 335 and love it. I drove stick for 10 years before my first auto and thought I was crazy for buying an auto. That's why I ended up getting rid of it for a manual. I never messed up so bad in my life. I couldn't wait to be in an auto again. The manual was fun except for the notchy 1-2 shift, which is the most important shift when you want to have a little fun.
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      02-09-2013, 10:45 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dozhdbog View Post
But the majority of magazine tests show the e90 AT is faster 0-60 than the manual. A few members who track their cars have mentioned an a/t e90 will beat a manual e90 off the line nearly every time.
OK, so if the conventional torque converter 6 speed automatic is superior in performance to the 6 speed manual, why does BMW bother with the DCT? Why is the conventional 6 Speed Auto not available in the 1 Series M Coupe (manual only), the 335is (manual/DCT) or the E90/92/93 M3 (manual/DCT)?

"A few members who track their cars..." you're talking about the dragstrip right? Because on the race track, being faster off the line is inconsequential because of the flying start (unless you're doing an old-school Formula 1 grid start).

Also, if you are really tracking a 335i, the AT makes your thermal problems worse because the AT needs to reject it's heat into the engine's cooling system (using a oil/water heat exchanger). So AT 335i will overheat sooner on the racetrack. Just search for the "335i Limp Mode Party" thread for more details on this.

6MT 335i with the stock oil cooler and using less than 50% coolant:water ratio and a "water wetter" such as Redline, Motul, etc. can usually avoid limp mode tracking on all but the hottest days. 6AT 335i needs supporting mods such as larger oil cooler and perhaps the PPK V2 auxiliary radiator to avoid overheating on the track.

BTW, I'd like to see those "majority of magazine tests", please post sources. The last time this subject came up on here, my position was confirmed, although admittedly the the 6AT's 0-60 advantage is small (but so is the DCT's advantage on the 6MT).
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      02-09-2013, 10:53 PM   #85
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i'll never buy another auto car.

unless it's not an option
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      02-09-2013, 11:06 PM   #86
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No because it's my DD.

I would regret it if this was my "weekend" car only. But it's not.


The Auto is fantastic for balance.....still fun in the twisties but if it's a dedicated 'fun car' for you...why settle for auto?
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      02-11-2013, 05:40 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoTempoLimitN54 View Post
OK, so if the conventional torque converter 6 speed automatic is superior in performance to the 6 speed manual, why does BMW bother with the DCT? Why is the conventional 6 Speed Auto not available in the 1 Series M Coupe (manual only), the 335is (manual/DCT) or the E90/92/93 M3 (manual/DCT)?
From what I've gathered from this forum, the ZF 6 speed steptronic shifts within 400ms, the DCT shifts within 200ms. So, because racecar.

Quote:
"A few members who track their cars..." you're talking about the dragstrip right? Because on the race track, being faster off the line is inconsequential because of the flying start (unless you're doing an old-school Formula 1 grid start).
I am talking about the dragstrip. I have no idea if a manual would best an a/t e90 on the racetrack, all else being equal, but people in this forum claim the a/t and the dct will be faster.

Quote:
Also, if you are really tracking a 335i, the AT makes your thermal problems worse because the AT needs to reject it's heat into the engine's cooling system (using a oil/water heat exchanger). So AT 335i will overheat sooner on the racetrack. Just search for the "335i Limp Mode Party" thread for more details on this.
Yeah, that's why I'd prefer a DCT for the racetrack.

Quote:
6MT 335i with the stock oil cooler and using less than 50% coolant:water ratio and a "water wetter" such as Redline, Motul, etc. can usually avoid limp mode tracking on all but the hottest days. 6AT 335i needs supporting mods such as larger oil cooler and perhaps the PPK V2 auxiliary radiator to avoid overheating on the track.
My a/t with stage 2 ppk(which, for me, included a water cooler, oil cooler, and better fan) is supposedly much better at the track now. Someday I'd like to find out, but I have no time right now. Again, I'd prefer a DCT.

Quote:
BTW, I'd like to see those "majority of magazine tests", please post sources. The last time this subject came up on here, my position was confirmed, although admittedly the the 6AT's 0-60 advantage is small (but so is the DCT's advantage on the 6MT).
I don't keep a categorized compilation of reviews and comparos, but I am sure you could find plenty yourself.
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      02-11-2013, 05:43 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tofu- View Post
no one ever said MT shifted faster...

all of this "skilled MT shifter vs AT shifter" talk is horse shit. a "skilled" (whatever that means) MT shifter with NLS can pretty much match auto shifting speed, with or without the delay. AT sets drag racing records because of the shorter first gear and easy-mode launching, not shift speed.


in daily driving, the AT shift initiation delay is freaking horrible. it is almost as long as the shift itself, and it is a complete pain in the ass to compensate for a delay unless you're doing the same straight line drag over and over again. When i tell my car to shift, i want my car to start shifting, not wait half a second then begin. A delay is not something I want to think about when I'm trying to have fun.
I had no idea the e9x MTs had no lift shift. And that delay you're talking about on the a/t is definitely not a half second. I don't know what cars you've been driving, but mine is nearly instantaneous.
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