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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Technical Forums > AUDIO/VIDEO + BLUETOOTH + Electronics/Alarm/Software > Mak's Stage 3 Sound upgrade with P88RS JL XD600/6 JL 1000/1 JL 12W7 Focal 100KRS



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      03-20-2013, 07:42 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaigoss69 View Post
No MS-8 does not check or correct polarity. You're supposed to hook up all speakers with normal polarity, and then the processor makes its corrections through EQ and TA.
Thanks Mate for the confirmation.
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      03-20-2013, 11:55 AM   #68
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Any Photos of what you have done?
Yeah here's a pic. I know its not the most beautiful looking thing but hopefully it will do the job. I will be cleaning it up and varnishing it once i have fitted it in and know that it will hold the morel in place after slamming the door a few times! At the moment i can push the morel in and just about click it in its place, using the 3 fork type clips that go around the speaker. It is very tight and i might shave a little around the inner edge of the ring, but don't want to ruin it by doing too much!

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      03-20-2013, 04:43 PM   #69
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Yeah here's a pic. I know its not the most beautiful looking thing but hopefully it will do the job. I will be cleaning it up and varnishing it once i have fitted it in and know that it will hold the morel in place after slamming the door a few times! At the moment i can push the morel in and just about click it in its place, using the 3 fork type clips that go around the speaker. It is very tight and i might shave a little around the inner edge of the ring, but don't want to ruin it by doing too much!

Looking good mate.
Lets hope you get it sorted. Looking for final results.
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      03-21-2013, 04:28 PM   #70
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Few observations with my current setup;

1- Elates SW9 are bit peaky and with slight eq'd they are better. 1-2
+db at 80Hz and 1-2-db b/w 150-200Hz make it bit natural.
I think this issue is due to limited space in the enclosure.
2- Elates and sub works much better if they are in phase. In this setup, mids work better at 200Hz or higher. If you take it below 200Hz and they start dispensing the mid bass and that is out of phase with mid bass / sub so SQ start getting compromised.
So if you want to play your mids lower than 200Hz, then make sure that mids and mid bass are in phase to each other. (sub sound will get compromised) or Keep mids higher or at 200Hz.
3- In my setup, there are peaks b/w 2-4Khz. It is due to HU auto equiliser.
4- Same as above b/w 18-19Khz.
5- It may be subjective but I felt that sound improves if I LP mids at 5Khz compared to 4Khz and adjust tweeters accordingly. Sound is more smooth and sound good.

Open for discussion if I'm doing anything wrong.
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      03-21-2013, 07:21 PM   #71
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Mak, you said you were going to install MS-8 in another car. Can I suggest you temporarily hook up the MS-8 between your HU and the amps and see what kind of difference you will get after the initial tune?

As for the Elates, they should play with authority down to about 40-45Hz. If they don't, you may want to look into the possibility that you have air leaks in your install.
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      03-21-2013, 08:05 PM   #72
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Are you still using your iPhone for frequency measurement?
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      03-22-2013, 05:52 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaigoss69 View Post
Mak, you said you were going to install MS-8 in another car. Can I suggest you temporarily hook up the MS-8 between your HU and the amps and see what kind of difference you will get after the initial tune?
Kaig,
its already fitted in that car. Its coming to me for sound tweaking and addition of amplifier.
I'll see if I have time, I'll try MS-8.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kaigoss69 View Post
As for the Elates, they should play with authority down to about 40-45Hz. If they don't, you may want to look into the possibility that you have air leaks in your install.

Another thing which I have noticed (I may be wrong), that the underseat boxes are slightly different for base, hi-fi and L7 sound system. I have SWS-8 fitted in hi-fi boxes and internal space in that box is more than the box of base (Elates fitted in that). Difference would be 0.1-0.2 litre.
Just wondering if anybody else noticed this as well?
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      03-22-2013, 05:53 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mob17 View Post
Are you still using your iPhone for frequency measurement?
Mob
I'm using my laptop with RTA software. (picked 2-4Khz mid peaks).
And iphone RTA picked 18-19Khz peaks.

Any suggestion for cheap DIY RTAs?
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      03-22-2013, 07:17 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makkan00 View Post
Another thing which I have noticed (I may be wrong), that the underseat boxes are slightly different for base, hi-fi and L7 sound system. I have SWS-8 fitted in hi-fi boxes and internal space in that box is more than the box of base (Elates fitted in that). Difference would be 0.1-0.2 litre.
Just wondering if anybody else noticed this as well?
The enclosure volume itself should not have much impact on the sound of the woofers since the total enclosure volume includes the much larger side sills. I have speculated before that the total enclosure acts more like IB rather than a small sealed enclosure.
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      03-22-2013, 05:19 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makkan00 View Post
Mob
I'm using my laptop with RTA software. (picked 2-4Khz mid peaks).
And iphone RTA picked 18-19Khz peaks.

Any suggestion for cheap DIY RTAs?
What mic are you using with your laptop?

There were 2 external mics i thought looked good, but haven't used either:

1) Behringer BCN6000 + Phantom power. Should work with most RTA software. But i think you'll need to get a calibration file which is essential, you could try contacting the retailer to ask about this:

http://www.thomann.de/gb/behringer_ecm_8000.htm

http://www.thomann.de/gb/the_tbone_micplug_usb.htm

2) Mini DSP Mic. Comes with a calibration file:

http://www.minidsp.com/products/acou...urement/umik-1

There are of course more expensive and accurate methods, but for me this is as far as i'd need to go. Of course, if someone had a proper RTA they could lend me, i'd just borrow that. Maybe ask someone on talkaudio? There are a lot of people happy and willing to help in my experience. But when i come to do mine one day, i'd use one of the above.

Edit: How much adjustability do you have regarding setting crossover types and slopes?
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      03-23-2013, 04:54 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaigoss69 View Post
The enclosure volume itself should not have much impact on the sound of the woofers since the total enclosure volume includes the much larger side sills. I have speculated before that the total enclosure acts more like IB rather than a small sealed enclosure.
Thanks and it make sense.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mob17 View Post
What mic are you using with your laptop?

There were 2 external mics i thought looked good, but haven't used either:

1) Behringer BCN6000 + Phantom power. Should work with most RTA software. But i think you'll need to get a calibration file which is essential, you could try contacting the retailer to ask about this:

http://www.thomann.de/gb/behringer_ecm_8000.htm

http://www.thomann.de/gb/the_tbone_micplug_usb.htm

2) Mini DSP Mic. Comes with a calibration file:

http://www.minidsp.com/products/acou...urement/umik-1

There are of course more expensive and accurate methods, but for me this is as far as i'd need to go. Of course, if someone had a proper RTA they could lend me, i'd just borrow that. Maybe ask someone on talkaudio? There are a lot of people happy and willing to help in my experience. But when i come to do mine one day, i'd use one of the above.

Edit: How much adjustability do you have regarding setting crossover types and slopes?

Cheers Mo.
I'll have a look and see what I can get.
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      03-25-2013, 07:59 PM   #78
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Morel Elates sounds better now.
How?
Eq's them +2db from 80-200Hz.
Reason: They are designed for boxes and not for IB application (as kaig stated). So in BMW, their response was flat which appears to sound 'peaky'. Eq'd them and they sound better.

Next experiment is
SWS-8 on the one side VS Elate on ther other side with Equiliser on only for elate side.


Other comparison:
P99RS with MS-8;
If you love surround sound system and central channels is v important, MS-8 should be your choice. Other reason to go for MS-8 is pure SQ if calibrated for SQ.

However if you love to experiments and want to use your car for lab, P99RS should be the choice. Everything is on the HU. Other reason would be SQL if thats your preference.
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      03-25-2013, 08:38 PM   #79
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FWIW, here is the target curve I like. I did this RTA yesterday. It pretty much mirrors the MS-8 target curve. The challenge is to get the crossover between the mid bass and sub set correctly. Right now I have it at 63Hz 18dB. For my taste, I have a little too much happening under my butt, and on the floorboard under my feet. It is pretty much the distraction of vibrations being picked-up by parts of the body, and your brain falsely associating those local vibrations with the location they're coming from. So if your butt vibrates due to certain bass notes being produced by the underseats, you may think that the bass note is coming from under the seat, even though the ear is not able to hear them coming from that location. I'm going to raise the x-over to 70Hz next to see if I can shift some of those notes to the sub WITHOUT sending too much high-frequency info to the rear which makes it easier for the ears to hear the sounds coming from the rear.
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      03-26-2013, 03:30 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaigoss69 View Post
FWIW, here is the target curve I like. I did this RTA yesterday. It pretty much mirrors the MS-8 target curve. The challenge is to get the crossover between the mid bass and sub set correctly. Right now I have it at 63Hz 18dB. For my taste, I have a little too much happening under my butt, and on the floorboard under my feet. It is pretty much the distraction of vibrations being picked-up by parts of the body, and your brain falsely associating those local vibrations with the location they're coming from. So if your butt vibrates due to certain bass notes being produced by the underseats, you may think that the bass note is coming from under the seat, even though the ear is not able to hear them coming from that location. I'm going to raise the x-over to 70Hz next to see if I can shift some of those notes to the sub WITHOUT sending too much high-frequency info to the rear which makes it easier for the ears to hear the sounds coming from the rear.
That graph look awsome. Kudos for all that hard work.

I prefer to have vibrations coming from the under seats. But not able to locate the sound from those.

Other things is that, I prefer to have balance b.w rears and fronts in a way that I can hear the ambience coming from the rear speakers but not overtaking the front stage.

Kaig, what mic have you used?
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      03-26-2013, 03:42 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makkan00 View Post

Another thing which I have noticed (I may be wrong), that the underseat boxes are slightly different for base, hi-fi and L7 sound system. I have SWS-8 fitted in hi-fi boxes and internal space in that box is more than the box of base (Elates fitted in that). Difference would be 0.1-0.2 litre.
Just wondering if anybody else noticed this as well?
This is correct (at least between base and others). I have posted things to this effect. For a base enclosure, you may need to use larger spacers with some drivers. In my case, with the SSMB8, I had to upgrade to a 3/4" spacer where others had used a 1/2" with adequate clearance.
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      03-26-2013, 03:46 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaigoss69 View Post
FWIW, here is the target curve I like. I did this RTA yesterday. It pretty much mirrors the MS-8 target curve. The challenge is to get the crossover between the mid bass and sub set correctly. Right now I have it at 63Hz 18dB. For my taste, I have a little too much happening under my butt, and on the floorboard under my feet. It is pretty much the distraction of vibrations being picked-up by parts of the body, and your brain falsely associating those local vibrations with the location they're coming from. So if your butt vibrates due to certain bass notes being produced by the underseats, you may think that the bass note is coming from under the seat, even though the ear is not able to hear them coming from that location. I'm going to raise the x-over to 70Hz next to see if I can shift some of those notes to the sub WITHOUT sending too much high-frequency info to the rear which makes it easier for the ears to hear the sounds coming from the rear.
That is indeed a nice curve, I noticed its in 3 sec decay mode. Is that the Studio Six version of the app or the JL audio one?
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      03-26-2013, 03:48 PM   #83
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Nice work guys.

Sorry, a bit off topic, but Taibanl why shouldn't we deal with raf555?
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      03-26-2013, 04:46 PM   #84
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Mak, I'm using the iTestMic from Studio Six Digital. It plugs right into the iPhone and it comes calibrated from the factory!

Tai, it is the studio six app "RTA".
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      03-26-2013, 04:49 PM   #85
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I need to come back to this thread for ideas
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      03-26-2013, 04:50 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaigoss69 View Post
FWIW, here is the target curve I like. I did this RTA yesterday. It pretty much mirrors the MS-8 target curve. The challenge is to get the crossover between the mid bass and sub set correctly. Right now I have it at 63Hz 18dB. For my taste, I have a little too much happening under my butt, and on the floorboard under my feet. It is pretty much the distraction of vibrations being picked-up by parts of the body, and your brain falsely associating those local vibrations with the location they're coming from. So if your butt vibrates due to certain bass notes being produced by the underseats, you may think that the bass note is coming from under the seat, even though the ear is not able to hear them coming from that location. I'm going to raise the x-over to 70Hz next to see if I can shift some of those notes to the sub WITHOUT sending too much high-frequency info to the rear which makes it easier for the ears to hear the sounds coming from the rear.
So for good quality sound is this the kind of settings I should be putting mine on?

Mine has lows kinda high, mids dropped down and highs back up about as high as the lows
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      03-26-2013, 06:16 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lifted07Duramax View Post
So for good quality sound is this the kind of settings I should be putting mine on?

Mine has lows kinda high, mids dropped down and highs back up about as high as the lows
We're talking about actual frequency response, as measured with a mic, as opposed to settings on the head unit.
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      03-28-2013, 08:31 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makkan00 View Post

Next experiment is
SWS-8 on the one side VS Elate on the other side with Equiliser on only for elate side.

And the results.....

SWS-8s is a clear winner in my condition. I want a driver which can play low when my sub is off (kids in the car).


This is what I did. Turned off time alignment and any equiliser settings.
And
Trial 1:
On one side SWS-8 without any equiliser VS elates without Equiliser.
Trial 2:
SWS-8 without equiliser VS elates with equiliser correction.

Sound was listened both from the driver and passenger seat. Tracks and even part of tracks were compared and for me earthquake is the WINNER in terms of sub bass.

Quality of P99RS is that you can reduce the volume of all other drivers from the HU to minimum and compare the drivers you want. Also instant change in xovers and slopes. Excellent product for learning and its like a sound lab.

I had a car with MS-8 fitted (by me as a SQ setup) for some work. As I am used to my sound system for some time and when I listened to MS-8 setup, the impression was WOW.

However spending 30 minutes in that car with the sound on, I decided that its too much information / processing for me. (no offence to MS-8 owners)
It is a great product but I like simple clean stereo sound with mild processing to have more neutral sound.


Quote:
Originally Posted by taibanl View Post
This is correct (at least between base and others). I have posted things to this effect. For a base enclosure, you may need to use larger spacers with some drivers. In my case, with the SSMB8, I had to upgrade to a 3/4" spacer where others had used a 1/2" with adequate clearance.
Thanks for confirming. I think that SWS-8 respond better in hi-fi / L7 enclosures compared to base enclosures. But I may be wrong.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kaigoss69 View Post
Mak, I'm using the iTestMic from Studio Six Digital. It plugs right into the iPhone and it comes calibrated from the factory!

Tai, it is the studio six app "RTA".
I need to get one of these toys. Thanks for mentioning it. Hunt is on!
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Last edited by makkan00; 05-05-2013 at 01:37 PM.
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