E90Post
 


VIBE Motorsports
 
BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > World's 1st Single Turbo AWD N54: Vishnu/FFTEC Single Turbo Content



Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      02-25-2013, 06:19 PM   #111
ajsalida
Lieutenant Colonel
ajsalida's Avatar
19
Rep
1,713
Posts

 
Drives: 95 M3, 02 R1150GSA, 09 335xi
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: SW USA

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jippii ensio View Post
The suspension is related to the driving style and traction rather than power. The highest G's are at breaking and cornering - not in accelerating.

The softer and higher the suspension, the better it works in the snow. Many Xis see snow. Power is the last factor to think when deciding on the suspension. Just go with your preferences. Some like it low, some like comfort, some like it very hard with RFTs and stiff springs and shocks.
The ski area that I live next to gets 465" of snow per year average. I get about 20 ft at my house. I live on a gravel road. Trust me, OEM Xi susp. does not do as well as the affordable aftermarket ones I mentioned above. Under any conditions.

Funny how much effort going into telling people not to upgrade their suspensions. I just find that odd esp given how poor the XI's is compared to other BMW OEM efforts. Maybe some of you ought to drive a car with just Konis/Eibachs or similar on it before you make these pronouncements. I agree you can wreck a cars handling if you don't know what you're doing but in this case the Xi's handling was wrecked by BMW first.
Appreciate 0
      02-25-2013, 06:43 PM   #112
shiv@vishnu
Tuner
United_States
700
Rep
17,616
Posts

 
Drives: X1, 335i
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: SF Bay, CA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajsalida View Post
The ski area that I live next to gets 465" of snow per year average. I get about 20 ft at my house. I live on a gravel road. Trust me, OEM Xi susp. does not do as well as the affordable aftermarket ones I mentioned above. Under any conditions.

Funny how much effort going into telling people not to upgrade their suspensions. I just find that odd esp given how poor the XI's is compared to other BMW OEM efforts. Maybe some of you ought to drive a car with just Konis/Eibachs or similar on it before you make these pronouncements. I agree you can wreck a cars handling if you don't know what you're doing but in this case the Xi's handling was wrecked by BMW first.
No one is saying not to upgrade the suspension. We are just saying that having 600+HP does not make it anymore necessary (or necessary at all) than having stock power.
Appreciate 0
      02-25-2013, 06:44 PM   #113
ajsalida
Lieutenant Colonel
ajsalida's Avatar
19
Rep
1,713
Posts

 
Drives: 95 M3, 02 R1150GSA, 09 335xi
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: SW USA

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by idspeedskater View Post
And if I take it back to Idaho and drive around in the snow and randomly sanded springtime roads the learning curve coming from stock to upgraded suspension will be key
This discussion is getting a little surreal. No one (at least not me) is suggesting you change your suspension before you get used to the extra power. Just that once you do you might find a better suspension more appropriate to using it.

As far as learning curves go, if you do not already know how to drive fast you have no business strapping an ST kit on your car in the first place. Low traction softly sprung LOW POWER is the way to learn.

I learned to drive (on a race track at least) in a dead stock 91 Miata. Drove the wheels off that car for several years and many thousands of track miles before I touched anything on it (except brake pads and tires). Then moved to an SCCA ITB car (a BMW 2002) which is not known for great power either.

Anyway I know where you guys are coming from as far as a rookie advice goes but you are already way beyond rookie if you are pushing power to where the ST kit takes it. At some point soon you will want a better susp than the OEM Xi. Not slammed or $5k worth of coilovers, or too stiff to ride in for more than 5 miles, just better. At everything.
Appreciate 0
      02-25-2013, 06:45 PM   #114
ajsalida
Lieutenant Colonel
ajsalida's Avatar
19
Rep
1,713
Posts

 
Drives: 95 M3, 02 R1150GSA, 09 335xi
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: SW USA

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
No one is saying not to upgrade the suspension. We are just saying that having 600+HP does not make it anymore necessary (or necessary at all) than having stock power.
OK fair enough. Maybe "desirable" is a better word, when you get used to the extra power.

edit: and this is just because the OEM Xi susp is particularly unsuited to performance driving, IMHO.

Last edited by ajsalida; 02-25-2013 at 06:53 PM.
Appreciate 0
      02-25-2013, 07:26 PM   #115
Fully_Bolted
Banned
6
Rep
443
Posts

 
Drives: E92 335i
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: USA

iTrader: (0)

I would just like to point out that Shiv also said that a 6AT upgrade wasn't necessary either

*awaits ban hammer*
Appreciate 0
      02-25-2013, 07:34 PM   #116
ragingpanda
Lieutenant
7
Rep
513
Posts

 
Drives: 135i
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Florida

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fully_Bolted View Post
I would just like to point out that Shiv also said that a 6AT upgrade wasn't necessary either

*awaits ban hammer*
I would like to point out that Shiv also said that his lpfp upgrade would be available for a reasonable cost.
Appreciate 0
      02-25-2013, 07:34 PM   #117
CaptainInsano
First Lieutenant
3
Rep
328
Posts

 
Drives: 2007 E92 335i 6MT
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Peninsula, SF Bay Area

iTrader: (0)

Everyone is responsible for their own mod choices. If he wants to run around on the stock suspension let him. It's his car.
__________________
FFTEC 6466 6mt 335i | FFTEC GTX3076R Evo IX
Appreciate 0
      02-25-2013, 07:35 PM   #118
idspeedskater
Idaho Transplant
United_States
1
Rep
156
Posts

 
Drives: 2007 335xi
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Redwood City, CA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajsalida
Quote:
Originally Posted by idspeedskater View Post
And if I take it back to Idaho and drive around in the snow and randomly sanded springtime roads the learning curve coming from stock to upgraded suspension will be key
This discussion is getting a little surreal. No one (at least not me) is suggesting you change your suspension before you get used to the extra power. Just that once you do you might find a better suspension more appropriate to using it.

As far as learning curves go, if you do not already know how to drive fast you have no business strapping an ST kit on your car in the first place. Low traction softly sprung LOW POWER is the way to learn.

I learned to drive (on a race track at least) in a dead stock 91 Miata. Drove the wheels off that car for several years and many thousands of track miles before I touched anything on it (except brake pads and tires). Then moved to an SCCA ITB car (a BMW 2002) which is not known for great power either.

Anyway I know where you guys are coming from as far as a rookie advice goes but you are already way beyond rookie if you are pushing power to where the ST kit takes it. At some point soon you will want a better susp than the OEM Xi. Not slammed or $5k worth of coilovers, or too stiff to ride in for more than 5 miles, just better. At everything.
The learning curve I'm talking about for myself is more the car itself as i transform it. Yes, if you don't have decent experience you shouldn't bolt on an ST and go hog wild. The 91 miata sounds better than my 92 Tercel, but it got around a track.

Flying home soon and should have some preliminary results to add to the discussion in a few days.
__________________
07 335xi Monaco Blue | FFTEC/Vishnu Single Turbo | Procede Rev 3 | Spec Stage 2+ Clutch | Spec Aluminum Flywheel | ETS FMIC | HKS Legamax Exhaust | Vishnu PWM Meth
Appreciate 0
      02-25-2013, 07:37 PM   #119
shiv@vishnu
Tuner
United_States
700
Rep
17,616
Posts

 
Drives: X1, 335i
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: SF Bay, CA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fully_Bolted View Post
I would just like to point out that Shiv also said that a 6AT upgrade wasn't necessary either

*awaits ban hammer*
It's not. As our 6at single turbo customers will tell you. But if you want to do back to back 1/2 mile runs and get the trans hot, you will likely see rough shifting and a 4-5-4 mis-shift. Luckily that only happens at 125+mph and during heavy racing conditions. Under these conditions, a transmission oil cooler would be a good investment.
Appreciate 0
      02-25-2013, 07:51 PM   #120
pits200
Lieutenant Colonel
United_States
33
Rep
1,916
Posts

 
Drives: 09 335i X-Drive Black Sapphire
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Pittsburgh

iTrader: (0)

I simply said, "Be careful". Not sure when my words got twisted into some people thinking I said a coilover kit is "REQUIRED" for high horsepower.

Not sure it can be argued that an aftermarket coil kit would help with the bucking that we saw in the test video with higher spring rates and stiffer dampening.
Appreciate 0
      02-25-2013, 07:57 PM   #121
Rob@RBTurbo
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor
Rob@RBTurbo's Avatar
21
Rep
1,104
Posts


 
Drives: 335I
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: St. Louis, MO

iTrader: (4)

How about everyone just let the guy get to the dragstrip and see how it does? Sounds like a novel idea to me.

On another note I do not think I've ever seen another platform be so demanding from a person who gives them what they want, more power. People: put down your newfound power however you choose, mod the car however you like, do whatever floats your boat. If it breaks: fix it, improve it, whatever you wish. This is what modding is all about, it is everywhere across the modding universe, this is nothing new.
Appreciate 0
      02-25-2013, 08:09 PM   #122
tahoerdr
Private
tahoerdr's Avatar
United_States
0
Rep
94
Posts

 
Drives: E92 335xi
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Bay Area, CA

iTrader: (3)

Not an argument: Any XI drivers that have read the suspension related threads are well aware of the (claimed) benefits of upgraded suspension and often mention it as their favorite upgrade. Is the stock suspension adequate? I'm not qualified to chime in, but I like to think people take a more balanced approach to upgrades. To each his own though. If Harold at HP can just get 4 more people to jump on board, my AST 4150 kit may actually arrive this year. Any XI guys looking for a suspension upgrade, talk to Harold at HP Autowerks.

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=658034

Last edited by tahoerdr; 02-25-2013 at 08:16 PM.
Appreciate 0
      02-25-2013, 08:21 PM   #123
pits200
Lieutenant Colonel
United_States
33
Rep
1,916
Posts

 
Drives: 09 335i X-Drive Black Sapphire
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Pittsburgh

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tahoerdr View Post
Not an argument: Any XI drivers that have read the suspension related threads are well aware of the (claimed) benefits of upgraded suspension and often mention it as their favorite upgrade. Is the stock suspension adequate? I'm not qualified to chime in, but I like to think people take a more balanced approach to upgrades. To each his own though. If Harold at HP can just get 4 more people to jump on board, my AST 4150 kit may actually arrive this year. Any XI guys looking for a suspension upgrade, talk to Harold at HP Autowerks.

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=658034
Tahoe, a couple of us xi guys got into a group buy for the xi 4100s about 1.5 years ago. We had all 5 xi guys pay right around Thanksgiving and we didn't get our coils till almost April even thought it was suppose to be 6-8 weeks. The asts are awesome at the price point they hit, they're in between ohlins/jrzs on hte high end and the kws and other sub $2k coils.

Hope you can find a few other guys to go in with you but expect to count the production time in months and not weeks.
Appreciate 0
      02-25-2013, 09:24 PM   #124
Former_Boosted_IS
Major General
141
Rep
5,179
Posts

 
Drives: 4 Wheels
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Planet Earth!

iTrader: (15)

It is funny how everyone tries to "up" the price of the turbo upgrade by adding suspension and other items. Honestly, I have driven stock twins, FBO twins plus meth, FBO twinds plus meth and nitrous, and single. I upgraded to coils before I did much of my other mods as that was my goal. Many people never upgrade. You should choose what best meets your goals. Vishnu is simply offering another upgrade for our car. More options on the table is good.
__________________
654 RWHP ... ! Vishnu/FFTEC Single Turbo 335
Appreciate 0
      02-25-2013, 09:30 PM   #125
turb0mike
turb0mike's Avatar
71
Rep
2,709
Posts

 
Drives: E90 335i Racecar
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: San Diego, CA

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2010 BMW 335i  [4.45]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Former_Boosted_IS View Post
It is funny how everyone tries to "up" the price of the turbo upgrade by adding suspension and other items. Honestly, I have driven stock twins, FBO twins plus meth, FBO twinds plus meth and nitrous, and single. I upgraded to coils before I did much of my other mods as that was my goal. Many people never upgrade. You should choose what best meets your goals. Vishnu is simply offering another upgrade for our car. More options on the table is good.
6k suspension upgrade > 6k performance upgrades
Appreciate 0
      02-25-2013, 09:36 PM   #126
Former_Boosted_IS
Major General
141
Rep
5,179
Posts

 
Drives: 4 Wheels
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Planet Earth!

iTrader: (15)

Quote:
Originally Posted by turb0mike View Post
6k suspension upgrade > 6k performance upgrades
The funny thing is a lot of guys run stock runflats with a tune. The stock tires on this car are a complete joke. That means we need to increase the cost of a tune by 1k to account for tire upgrades.
__________________
654 RWHP ... ! Vishnu/FFTEC Single Turbo 335
Appreciate 0
      02-25-2013, 09:43 PM   #127
CaptainInsano
First Lieutenant
3
Rep
328
Posts

 
Drives: 2007 E92 335i 6MT
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Peninsula, SF Bay Area

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Former_Boosted_IS View Post
The funny thing is a lot of guys run stock runflats with a tune. The stock tires on this car are a complete joke. That means we need to increase the cost of a tune by 1k to account for tire upgrades.
Better include the the extra gas.
__________________
FFTEC 6466 6mt 335i | FFTEC GTX3076R Evo IX
Appreciate 0
      02-26-2013, 06:57 AM   #128
ajsalida
Lieutenant Colonel
ajsalida's Avatar
19
Rep
1,713
Posts

 
Drives: 95 M3, 02 R1150GSA, 09 335xi
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: SW USA

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Former_Boosted_IS View Post
The funny thing is a lot of guys run stock runflats with a tune. The stock tires on this car are a complete joke. That means we need to increase the cost of a tune by 1k to account for tire upgrades.
Remember we're (me at least) talking about the XI here, not the I, and in that situation the XI susp is as bad for handling and general enjoyment as RFTs. And I am not saying you add this to the cost, just that you'd want to do a modest spring/shock upgrade eventually. And me personally would do that first before engine mods the Xi susp is so bad.

This is not as apparent if you live where all the roads are perfectly smooth. The XI will bottom out hard on the smallest imperfection, pitch and roll all over the place, making me wonder about all those half shafts and CV joints under 100% more power. With me owning/driving it that is.

The general discussion here I hope is how to make a complete car on which all parts are up to the task of reliably putting down the power a ST makes. That is not a statement about flaws of the kit, nor is it even the the tuner's responsibility, just basic sound vehicle engineering. This is why the susp brakes chassis bushings etc. on the M3 are different from those on the 328. Or the 911 Turbo S different from the base non S 911. GT500 Shelby vs base Mustang, Etc. fill in your favorite base car then AMG version or whatever.

But the car owner who does not acknowledge that to use ALL that extra power effectively might take some more coin, well that is delusional. Unless he just wants a big motor and relatively weaker susp/brakes/drivetrain. Which I would not want personally but then I know to add in roughly same cost as motor mods to bring rest of the car up to snuff. For MY peace of mind and intended uses.

edit: And, for the XI, the weakest point by far in the base car is the SUSPENSION.

Last edited by ajsalida; 02-26-2013 at 07:06 AM.
Appreciate 0
      02-26-2013, 09:33 AM   #129
iloseguitarpicks
Lieutenant
6
Rep
571
Posts

 
Drives: 2007 E90 335Xi
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: NJ

iTrader: (11)

sigh, if only I lived in California...I'd gladly be the guinea pig! Looks like it's time to make the switch
__________________
-335xi---Innotech Exhaust---AR 3" Catless---Pro tuned---HPF FMIC---ER Chargepipe---KW V1---Injen DCI---BMW Performance Front Bumper, Rear Spoiler & Door Sills---Vorsteiner wheels---much more-
Appreciate 0
      02-26-2013, 12:19 PM   #130
joec500
Brigadier General
46
Rep
3,004
Posts

 
Drives: it has 4 wheels
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: San Francisco

iTrader: (10)

Quote:
Originally Posted by turb0mike View Post
6k suspension upgrade > 6k performance upgrades
Totally agree, in my situation I had the Flexfuel kit installed, and the power totally overwhelmed my drivetrain, caused wheelhop and destroyed my halfshaft.

Once I installed the diff lockdown and stiffer more track oriented TCkline suspension with proper alignment and camber plates, and an LSD, the car is soooo much easier to drive, because it's so much more responsive and predictable.

I finally feel the chassis can keep up with the power. So many guys here have tons of power, that out overwhelm their chassis, but to each their own I guess. I like turning
__________________
2007 E92 6MT SGM: MusicarNW Level 2, Procede Rev 2.5, FFTEC/Vishnu LPFP with Flexfuel Sensor and Flash, M3 Offset V701's, WaveTrac LSD, Michelin PSS, Downpipes, M3 Control Arms, TCKline D/A Suspension, LCI Tail lights, Lux AE's, ER Charge Pipe, DCI's, Mtech Front and Rear, M3 Sideskirts, HPF Stage 1 Clutch
Appreciate 0
      02-26-2013, 12:53 PM   #131
BEAR-AvHistory
2014 435M-Sport/MPPK
BEAR-AvHistory's Avatar
22
Rep
2,270
Posts

 
Drives: 2014 435M-Sport MPPK
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: NC - USA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by joec500 View Post
Totally agree, in my situation I had the Flexfuel kit installed, and the power totally overwhelmed my drivetrain, caused wheelhop and destroyed my halfshaft.

Once I installed the diff lockdown and stiffer more track oriented TCkline suspension with proper alignment and camber plates, and an LSD, the car is soooo much easier to drive, because it's so much more responsive and predictable.

I finally feel the chassis can keep up with the power. So many guys here have tons of power, that out overwhelm their chassis, but to each their own I guess. I like turning
Be careful about using logic in a place where emotion rules. Easy way to run a 600whp engine on a stock suspension is to place a bock under the throttle pedal at 1/3 – 1/2 throttle, no harm, no foul + 600whp bragging rights.

Two things come to mind with the whole suspension issue. Its in the Vendors financial self interest to minimize the overall cost for a truly functional 600whp car & some people are all about lifting their hoods at a local meet, or points on a fan site so anything past an turbo install might not be important to them.
__________________
Kevin

2014 435M-Sport MPPK - 2013 135is Cab 6MT - 2009 V-Star FFR Cobra MK-IV work in progress
Cobra Coyote First Start.
Appreciate 0
      02-26-2013, 01:23 PM   #132
jippii ensio
Major
13
Rep
1,224
Posts

 
Drives: 335i
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: On the road

iTrader: (0)

Looks like everyone agrees on xi stock suspension not being the best one. Upgrading the suspension makes sense for those who value better suspension. However, why don't you guys take it to the correct subforum from now on.
Appreciate 0
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:39 PM.




e90post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST