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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > 1st Track Day = N54 Engine Failure :(



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      05-09-2013, 07:14 PM   #133
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Happy to hear you will be up an running again soon.
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      05-09-2013, 07:24 PM   #134
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This reminds me of my meth tragedy at Laguna Seca. I loved meth and thought well of it for track use until a fire broke out. Yes WW kit. Doesn't matter though. IMO, meth for the street or 1/4 mile is fine. However, it's a bit dangerous when used during 20-30 minutes of hard road course driving.

Be smart.... Invest 2k into a beater miata. More fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow. Plus, maintenance is dirt cheap and if you smack a wall, you didn't lose much.
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      05-10-2013, 12:33 AM   #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SneakyDeeky View Post
It's all yours if you want it. I have it boxed up in my garage. PM me to setup a date and time.
I probably spent about 10 hours trying to identify root cause, but gave up after I couldn't find anything obvious with the meth kit. It seemed to be functioning fine, but I wasn't about to drive around with it installed. I limited my testing to my garage only, although I did control it through the JB4 to prime the line and it worked. :shrug:

Done - send you a PM when my schedule's firmed - might be 2 weeks now, but certainly soon for a visit I have to make. Thx! I'll measure flow against atmospheric first - post some figures vs another BMS unit.
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      05-10-2013, 12:37 AM   #136
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This reminds me of my meth tragedy at Laguna Seca. I loved meth and thought well of it for track use until a fire broke out. Yes WW kit. Doesn't matter though. IMO, meth for the street or 1/4 mile is fine. However, it's a bit dangerous when used during 20-30 minutes of hard road course driving.

What failed? Tank connection? Guessing much vibrational torque at that point.
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      05-10-2013, 02:21 AM   #137
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Spill or vapor caught fire on downpipes. Fire hit sound deadening foam under engine cover. Smolder damaged wire harness, cover, fuel rails, etc etc.... $6500 in damage but hey.... I had lower temps... Well at least before the fire
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      05-10-2013, 03:55 AM   #138
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I am not 100% sure that methanol injection caused the problem. I have seen JB4 logs and they don't look pretty at all as far as AFRs go. I have seen logs with AFRs of 16-17 post-shift, which last like 1000-2000RPMs, which means it is a matter of time until a motor is damaged. And I have seen this on two different cars with JB4 (both manual transmission). Especially on the "G5 ISO" variety is very dangerous. Luckily I had never ran a piggyback on my own car and I would never do this. The melted piston really is a sign of lean run, even if the methanol pump was ran as full capacity I don't think you could cause any real damage especially if using Boost Juice.

I would advise anyone who looks to track his car to stay away from any piggyback and use a flash tune for this purpose, with proper AFRs and stuff.

Also I would never use methanol injection at the track, except in small quantities for intake cooling (maybe only water injection), never relying on methanol for supplying octane, because feeding 6 cylinders with adequate methanol flow from one-two jets placed in the intake tract is not feasible except for very short periods of time, like at the drag strip.

If you want more power at the track, run race gas.
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      05-10-2013, 04:32 AM   #139
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I am not 100% sure that methanol injection caused the problem. I have seen JB4 logs and they don't look pretty at all as far as AFRs go. I have seen logs with AFRs of 16-17 post-shift, which last like 1000-2000RPMs, which means it is a matter of time until a motor is damaged. And I have seen this on two different cars with JB4 (both manual transmission). Especially on the "G5 ISO" variety is very dangerous.
Do you have any proof to back up that claim about lean AFRs?
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      05-10-2013, 04:50 AM   #140
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Proof is on logs from piggies. Post shift lean afr are very dangerous
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      05-10-2013, 09:06 AM   #141
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This thread just reinforces why I am gald I have the regular N52, no meth, and don't track my car. :-)

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      05-10-2013, 10:00 AM   #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 135Hoser View Post
Do you have any proof to back up that claim about lean AFRs?
Quote:
Originally Posted by enrita View Post
Proof is on logs from piggies. Post shift lean afr are very dangerous
they are right buddy.

I have the JB4 G5 ISO as well, even though I run COBB alone usually, I decided to try it out by itself and it does run lean most of th eitme

you need COBB underneath for proper fueling. I'm not sure how that would affect postfhit, but it fixes the AFRs throughout a run completely
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      05-10-2013, 09:33 PM   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cstavaru View Post
I am not 100% sure that methanol injection caused the problem. I have seen JB4 logs and they don't look pretty at all as far as AFRs go. I have seen logs with AFRs of 16-17 post-shift, which last like 1000-2000RPMs, which means it is a matter of time until a motor is damaged. And I have seen this on two different cars with JB4 (both manual transmission). Especially on the "G5 ISO" variety is very dangerous. Luckily I had never ran a piggyback on my own car and I would never do this. The melted piston really is a sign of lean run, even if the methanol pump was ran as full capacity I don't think you could cause any real damage especially if using Boost Juice.

I would advise anyone who looks to track his car to stay away from any piggyback and use a flash tune for this purpose, with proper AFRs and stuff.

Also I would never use methanol injection at the track, except in small quantities for intake cooling (maybe only water injection), never relying on methanol for supplying octane, because feeding 6 cylinders with adequate methanol flow from one-two jets placed in the intake tract is not feasible except for very short periods of time, like at the drag strip.

If you want more power at the track, run race gas.
This makes sense to me and I agree with the skepticism in meth.
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they are right buddy.

I have the JB4 G5 ISO as well, even though I run COBB alone usually, I decided to try it out by itself and it does run lean most of th eitme

you need COBB underneath for proper fueling. I'm not sure how that would affect postfhit, but it fixes the AFRs throughout a run completely
Well, at least I have a COBB tune now.
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      05-11-2013, 08:32 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by SneakyDeeky View Post
This makes sense to me and I agree with the skepticism in meth.

Well, at least I have a COBB tune now.

Hi Sneeky - tentatively be in SoCal by the 25th. Coolingmist pump capable of 1.3 gpm, or 0.022 gal per second [2.77 oz or shade over 1/3 cup].

Might not be much at, say, 3000+ rpm, and that's against atmospheric pressure. Insert an atomizing nozzle - back pressure reduces flow. Have no pump curves yet - sending for same. Will verify on my bench vs. unused Coolingmist pump I have - we'll track this down starting there.

Quick/dirty: 1.3 gpm @4000 rpm = 6 cyl's fed 2000 times per min = each cyl dosed 0.01387 oz at max poss flow and should totally vaporize on combustion - nozzle must fail catastrophically to achieve this rate.

Substantial amp draw on that pump.

Again, thanks! Looking forward....

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Edit: Coolingmist CM10 nozzle I have, you should too, flows 0.213 gpm [12.8 gph] but at what pressure Coolingmist doesn't say. Pump spec's 200 psi - maybe there. If so & nozzle intact, divide above dosage by 6.1 to obtain max poss Boost Juice flow @ 4000 rpm = 0.00227 oz per dose. I may be nuts, but shoulda vaporized.

.

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      05-31-2013, 11:30 PM   #145
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This makes sense to me and I agree with the skepticism in meth.

Well, at least I have a COBB tune now.
Many thanks for giving me your meth ki todayt - now the fun begins....ba back in a few days with some info....

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      06-01-2013, 01:46 AM   #146
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That sucks that you had that happen and one reason that I now tune with E85 instead of meth injection. I just took my car to the road race course and ran it very hard with no issues. You get great knock protection with E30-E40 and my data logs show very good knock supression.

You take a bit of a chance with meth injection and I did run it for a solid year and its just a pain to set up and check and top off all the time and I had a nozzle clog up and another friend had a leak and the pump just kept running and running with the Aquamist system and there are other issues and the main safety problem is that if you lose pump pressure or run out of the fluid or get a clogged nozzle or basically lose the meth injection while running, then you can blow the car up if you have the timing advanced to take advantage of the extra knock suppression provided by meth injection.

I did make a file just for the road race course and turned the timing down a little bit just to be safe and ran on 40% ethonal all day. The only thing that I had trouble with was my brakes fading. I did not hit limp on oil temps, but they did run hot and I think I will need a larger oil cooler to run longer in hot conditions, it was 90F last weekend.

I want to try some new racing pads, racing brake fluid with higher wet boiling point and even some new rubber on the front tires.

Good luck this time !

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      06-02-2013, 08:08 PM   #147
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I have not been on this forum for quite some time. However, when I was active here I was hell bent on making my car track worthy in the summer FL heat. I did not have an engine blow but I certainly had my share of troubles with the car overheating as most have. I modded with every cooler and preventative mod known to man for our cars and even came up with some cooling mods of my own,...some of you know I designed a AT cooler, and a wired in a 335is larger radiator fan. I never ran meth for these types of reasons. Even though I finally got my car to take the abuse of the track it seems to do so unwillingly. There are always hesitations, some surging as described by the OP and nearly every time I went to the track I had some issue. I realize others run their car at the track alot but it has become abundantly clear to me that these cars are not meant to abuse on the track.

So the reason I left the forum for so long is I bought a dedicated track car. I would encourage anyone seriously looking to do more than 1-2 days a year to look into something like an older Miata, older E36 M3, Corvette C5 Z06, Honda S2000. Enjoy your beast of a BMW 335i as a GREAT DD to enjoy on spirited drives and buy a dedicated track car.

Just my 0.02.

Good luck with whatever you decide.
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      06-02-2013, 10:21 PM   #148
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...

So the reason I left the forum for so long is I bought a dedicated track car. I would encourage anyone seriously looking to do more than 1-2 days a year to look into something like an older Miata, older E36 M3, Corvette C5 Z06, Honda S2000. Enjoy your beast of a BMW 335i as a GREAT DD to enjoy on spirited drives and buy a dedicated track car.

Just my 0.02.

Good luck with whatever you decide.
I knew everything you said to be true before I took my car to the track and was deciding between a few options, but had to use my track car savings to get my DD driving again.

What kind of track car did you go with? I've been debating between an S2000, Lotus Caterham, Elise/Exige, or sell my 335i and upgrade to an E90 M3.
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      06-02-2013, 10:39 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by N54_Fan View Post
I have not been on this forum for quite some time. However, when I was active here I was hell bent on making my car track worthy in the summer FL heat. I did not have an engine blow but I certainly had my share of troubles with the car overheating as most have. I modded with every cooler and preventative mod known to man for our cars and even came up with some cooling mods of my own,...some of you know I designed a AT cooler, and a wired in a 335is larger radiator fan. I never ran meth for these types of reasons. Even though I finally got my car to take the abuse of the track it seems to do so unwillingly. There are always hesitations, some surging as described by the OP and nearly every time I went to the track I had some issue. I realize others run their car at the track alot but it has become abundantly clear to me that these cars are not meant to abuse on the track.

So the reason I left the forum for so long is I bought a dedicated track car. I would encourage anyone seriously looking to do more than 1-2 days a year to look into something like an older Miata, older E36 M3, Corvette C5 Z06, Honda S2000. Enjoy your beast of a BMW 335i as a GREAT DD to enjoy on spirited drives and buy a dedicated track car.

Just my 0.02.

Good luck with whatever you decide.
Completely agree.
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      06-02-2013, 11:01 PM   #150
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I knew everything you said to be true before I took my car to the track and was deciding between a few options, but had to use my track car savings to get my DD driving again.

What kind of track car did you go with? I've been debating between an S2000, Lotus Caterham, Elise/Exige, or sell my 335i and upgrade to an E90 M3.
I decided on a 2004 C5 Z06. It has PLENTY of people that can work on them. One thing about BMW for the track is that I needed specialty Perfromance shops to do much of the bigger mods and work. There are only a couple good ones around and one is 90 miles away. Wife gets pissed driving me back and forth after a while... A Vette has parts easily available, even at Autozone or Napa. No need to worry about worn rotors are broken parts and having to wait to get them online like a BMW. There is a LARGE amount of support and mods available for tracking. Almost bullet proof engine for the track and 355 RWHP out of the box and only weighs 3050 lbs. Cheaper to maintain than a BMW.

A buddy of mine has an S2000 that is track ready and it is like a go kart and fun but top speed is about 115-120mph. It is more of an autocross car in my opinion.

A new E90 M3 is a great track car too but it too has its problems and requires some mods for extended track use. In fact the Z06 has similar issues. Its just MUCH cheaper to mod and maintain the Vette. Having said that NO TRACK CAR IS CHEAP!!

The cheapest is probably a 1991 Miata. Can buy for about $7-10K and mod for another $6-10K for the track and it will compete with a stock Z06.

I looked at a Lotus Elise but parts are VERY expensive. Exige even more so. The Exige is a GREAT track car but both require nearly 2x the initial investment over a C5 Z06. Elise is about $35K for a decent one and Exige is ~$43K or more for a good one. Compare to Z06 at $18K-24K depending on what year and miles.

E36 M3 is a good option as well. Can be had for ~$10K-$15K and modded nicely and handles really well. I just wanted to get away from the BMW tax and go for the "Vette tax". Besides something to be said about a V8 roaring. The Z06 is easily modded to ~500 HP.

Next time you go to the track take note of what cars are in the fastest groups,...~40% are Porsche 911 GT3 RS, ~40% are C5 Z06 or C6 Z06, and the rest are made up of BMW, Ferrari, Viper, Lotus, Nissan GTR.

So for $20K car with about $10-20K in mods you can compete with $200K Porsches and have a RELIABLE car.

Good Luck.

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      06-02-2013, 11:22 PM   #151
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Here I found this one for you,...LOL. This would be a FANTASTIC car.... Too bad its $95K.

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/auto...-race-car.html
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      06-02-2013, 11:44 PM   #152
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Here I found this one for you,...LOL. This would be a FANTASTIC car.... Too bad its $95K.

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/auto...-race-car.html
That thing looks like a monster that would kill me (and my wallet).

I watched this on YouTube today (link to Chris Harris Review of Morgan Three Wheeler and Caterham Seven) and it's caused me to spend the afternoon reading up on Caterham's. I was just looking at this on another tab...
http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f94/...ight-r-122500/

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      06-03-2013, 10:17 AM   #153
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That thing looks like a monster that would kill me (and my wallet).

I watched this on YouTube today (link to Chris Harris Review of Morgan Three Wheeler and Caterham Seven) and it's caused me to spend the afternoon reading up on Caterham's. I was just looking at this on another tab...
http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f94/...ight-r-122500/

The last time I was at Sebring there was a guy running a red one of those. It was noteable for 2 things. 1) It was lightning fast as an open cockpit car. 2) Blowing the engine 2/3 way through the day.

At >$40K I dont understand why you are looking at that as a track car. If you have the means to spend $40K on a track car then do so. but get a dedicated track car. But you are talking about upgrading to an M3 and selling your 335i. If you want a DD that DOUBLES as a track car that is a good option. However, as I have said before I think its a bad idea. Things WILL break. What are you going to go to work with when that happens? Will your wife get pissed off driving you to work all week while car gets fixed?...mine did. Are you going to push the car and really learn to drive well or are you going to only go 7/10 because its your DD and you dont want to wreck it or break it? That was a big problem I had. I always held back for fear it would break. Now if my Z06 breaks no biggie. I have another car to go to work in. Parts can be picked up at Napa after work and all is well working on it in my garage.

Figure out your budget on a separate dedicated track car and work with that. Everyone told me I should do that from the beginning and until I was a year into it and many thousands of dollars later I realized it was the best option. Now I use my BMW 335i for autocross and fun on the street as a DD and my Z06 for HPDE and autocross.

Good Luck.

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      06-03-2013, 12:29 PM   #154
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The last time I was at Sebring there was a guy running a red one of those. It was noteable for 2 things. 1) It was lightning fast as an open cockpit car. 2) Blowing the engine 2/3 way through the day.

...

Good Luck.
N54_Fan
Good feedback - thanks.
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