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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Detailed test results of Juicebox Stg 1 this morning.



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      08-26-2007, 12:24 PM   #1
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Detailed test results of Juicebox Stg 1 this morning.

I have been reading about the test results of the Juicebox, and quite frankly I was pretty skeptical about putting something like this on my car. But then I realized that the Turbo Tuner and Juicebox performed pretty similarily in that they don't affect stock drivability any, and have rarely been reported to trigger CELs. I met Terry once at the drag strip, and he was very approachable and eager to discuss technical details with me. Other than that, I really didn't know to much about him, other than what I have been reading on the forums. I decided to give him the benefit of a doubt, and asked him if he wanted to provide me with a Juice Box unit to test. I told him that since my 335i was consistantly one of the quickest stock examples, and I ran very consistantly at the track, GTech, etc...my car would be a good platform to run an actual evaluation of his product. On the plus side, I am very methodical, and technical when it comes to testing. I had enough college electronics to understand the technicalities of how his product works. With the small amount of boost increase that is induced by tricking the MAP, and Temp sensors, the factory knock retard function is fully intact. The range of the knock retard envelope is well within reach of the ECU in dealing with the increased boost characteristics. Sure, I would never run anything but 91+, and hopefully don't ever get any watered down gas. While we are discussing the safety of this product, I'm still wondering if the DME won't pull boost as a second line of defense if it is bombarded with excessive knock signals, and at worst go into limp mode. Has anyone discussed this? I told Terry that if the results were bad, I would simply return his Juicebox to him, and shake his hand. But Terry said, even if the results were bad, I was free to post them. He told me "It is what it is." That is something that definitely impressed me about his character. The first time I contacted him was yesterday (Saturday a.m.) Can you believe he took time out from his Saturday, and on a moments notice, drove all the way down to my house and personally installed the unit, while explaining the installation process? I really couldn't imagine gaining 3mph, .30 in the qtr with the claimed ~30hp gains. But I will tell you, on average I got a 1-1.5mph, and .15 second improvement. I also got some of my best 0-60mph times with the JB1. There are so many modifications that get you no measurable gain. They make you think that the car is faster, but overall don't offer much improvement. This mod doesn't affect your stock drivability at all, because it only alters your maximum boost by 1.5psi or so.

THE RESULTS:

First GTech Pro graph shows the runs made stock. You can see how the runs are right on top of each other, because of the consistancy. Temp was 57F, basically sea level. All runs are made from the exact same starting point of test strip. They were made at sunrise basically, around 6:45am.

2nd Gtech graph shows the four runs with the Juice Box stage 1, however it was 10 degrees warmer outside (67F), and it was about 1am in the morning.

Most of the runs were just under 107mph. With one at 107.11. Almost exactly one mph faster than stock. So on average, the runs with the JB1 were about 1-1.5mph faster and .10-.15 seconds quicker. So I figure about 10-15 horsepower more. It does feel noticeably quicker. On my launches there really wasn't any problem with wheel spin. So that wasn't a factor. The temp was 67F instead of 57F. I tested at 1am rather than 6:30am, because I figured the road would be less damp from the morning dew. But I think with 10F cooler temp, the thing would be consistanly running 107MPH. That is not bad. My M3 has trapped at 107.5mph in similar temps, but is generally 106-107. So the JB1 gives the 335i the same top end rush as my M3. And as I said before, my M3 ran some of the quickest stock M3 times at Famosa. The quickest time I recorded on the M3 was almost 13 flat (In cold 49F temps), but on average, 13.2-13.45 seconds. The M3 is much harder to launch, and I usually have to be careful balancing the wheel spin in 1st gear. The 335i steptronic is a walk in the park. So easy, so consistant. As usual, you can see I ran the runs one after another, with no serious deterioration between 1st-2nd runs. In fact, the fastest run was the 4th run.

And the 3rd Gtech graph: I decided to check the ambient temps and do some more testing at sunrise this a.m. Although it wasn't quite down to the 57F of yesterday's stock test, it was 62F. So coupled with the 5 degrees cooler temps (than the 1am 67F temp) , and slightly less gas, (1/8, compared to 1/4). The variables worked in favor of slightly better times this morning. Also, although I was trying to keep things very consistant, this was a different tank of 91 octane fuel, but from the same Union 76 gas station. If anything, this shows that even small changes in temp/weight can have measurable effects on your runs. This also shows how sensitive the Gtech is at measuring slight changes. You can see by the runs how incredibly consistant the runs are. I would say there is probably more comparable consistancy that is useful to an individual user with the Gtech, than there are comparing HP numbers from different dynos, in different parts of the world, etc, etc. Even though my GTech has produced almost identical results compared to my track time slips, the main purpose is to see the difference in results that your mods brings. This is where the GTech shines. I have all those runs the almost look like the same line, but yet if I superimpose the Juice Box run, you will see the distinctly different acceleration graph,. However you can see that the times are consistantly below 13.2 seconds now. This test also involved me putting at least 40 miles of hard driving on the car after the install, so there were no issues of adaptation. This is another factor that makes quick product switches on the Dyno hard to compare. Before everyone starts claiming that my car can't run a 13.26-13.45 stock, remember, my car ran a 13.46 in 90F, 2700Ft LACR, stock, and on runflats. (About a second quicker than the GTOs) I currently am running the 275/30/19s, 245/35/19s from my 06 M3 right now. But as I already posted the other week, there was absolutely no improvement in my 60' time with them, as my best launches were actually with the stock RFTs. However, my 275/30/19 Exclaims are pretty much worn out. But other than that...and the JB1, no other modifications. I am thinking that maybe my car stock has a little higher boost than normal, and therefore the amount gained with the JB1 wasn't as much as it might be on someone elses car.

Conclusion: For the measured improvement, and seat of the pants feel, what else can you get that offers this kind of improvement for $179 ! I was skeptical how many modified cars weren't much quicker than my car. Well even with the stage 1, there is a real, measurable improvement.

I was going to try the JB stg 2, but apparently there is a waiting list. If I get a hold of one, I will post the complete results also. Hopefully this information is useful to some of you. If anything, it tells you how much variables can affect results. And i think this illustrates more real world improvements rather than static dyno runs.
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Last edited by hotrod182; 08-26-2007 at 07:24 PM.
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      08-26-2007, 12:51 PM   #2
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And here is the JB1 vs Stock acceration graph.
You can see that there is almost a .50 second advantage 0-100mph for the JB1 run. Thats pretty good for a simple, inexpensive mod. A 1.5mph difference can be a slow walking speed advantage when you are racing someone.
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Last edited by hotrod182; 08-26-2007 at 07:22 PM.
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      08-26-2007, 12:53 PM   #3
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I thought he charged $180 or so for JB Stage1.
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      08-26-2007, 01:05 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lawdude View Post
I thought he charged $180 or so for JB Stage1.
He had a $99 special for August only.
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      08-26-2007, 02:19 PM   #5
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Maybe the other tuners can have a 50% off sale too.
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      08-26-2007, 04:13 PM   #6
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hotrod, excellent documentation and clear presentation; hope you get the stage 2 sometimes. Love the consistency of the step, it makes seeing a trend very easy. Have you tried doing statistical analysis on these runs? Anyhow nice work.
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      08-26-2007, 06:32 PM   #7
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very nice results! thanks for taking the time to write all of this up.
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      08-26-2007, 06:38 PM   #8
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Another thread that will be closed soon.
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      08-26-2007, 07:22 PM   #9
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How does someone with an 06 M3 settle for an JB?
all kidding aside, why did you go with the JB and not a piggyback....
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      08-26-2007, 07:34 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmramos44 View Post
How does someone with an 06 M3 settle for an JB?
all kidding aside, why did you go with the JB and not a piggyback....
I haven't decided what I will ultimately stick with. I have been listening for any news/feedback on the Procede V2. I think for refinement, sometimes these simple solutions may be the best at maintaining stock drivability qualities. With the highest boost modifications, there may be complications, only time will tell. It seems like many of the more expensive solutions sometimes haven't been achieving the higher trap speeds that you would expect them to. With the Procede V2, if it really has 70 more horsepower or so, the 335i should trap at around 112mph, and will probably beat the new M3, which would be great. Only time will tell.

Last edited by hotrod182; 08-26-2007 at 10:32 PM.
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      08-26-2007, 09:46 PM   #11
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Great job Hotrod182. You always post some good info with evidence to back it up. Real world testing is always better to see than a bunch of dynos. You have validated your Gtech over time and time again, so I would say the results are pretty accurate. Really not a bad gain at all for a 91 octane JB1. With 93 octane, you'd probably be another mph better.

As far as I know, the DME should still pull timing if you induce knock retard for example if someone put 87oct in your car with the JB1 installed. The JB1 doesn't eliminate this fail safe. As Shiv mentioned before, it probably cuts into the factory placed saftey margin, but if its not inducing knock retard, there shouldn't be a problem. TErry mentioned doing lots of data logging at different ambient temps, different elevations, etc, and found a boost level for JB1 that wouldn't induce in knock retard in all conditions.
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      08-26-2007, 10:11 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catm3 View Post
Great job Hotrod182. You always post some good info with evidence to back it up. Real world testing is always better to see than a bunch of dynos. You have validated your Gtech over time and time again, so I would say the results are pretty accurate. Really not a bad gain at all for a 91 octane JB1. With 93 octane, you'd probably be another mph better.

As far as I know, the DME should still pull timing if you induce knock retard for example if someone put 87oct in your car with the JB1 installed. The JB1 doesn't eliminate this fail safe. As Shiv mentioned before, it probably cuts into the factory placed saftey margin, but if its not inducing knock retard, there shouldn't be a problem. TErry mentioned doing lots of data logging at different ambient temps, different elevations, etc, and found a boost level for JB1 that wouldn't induce in knock retard in all conditions.
Dear Hotrod, in an attempt to match the high level of data you presented to us today, i sneaked out tonight (my wife is onto me, i mean how often does "i am just going to fill up at the gas station" work before she thinks there is another woman??? or something) and did three runs with temp 74 F, 1/4 tank full of Mobil 93. Examining the 3 runs, the faster one from yesterday showed that i held it in 3rd gear for longer closer to the red line whereas i shifted earlier in the 3 runs from today. All runs from today are in the 12.8-12.9 range so that run does not seem to have been a fluke, the car is fast (enough for now). Thoughts? Advice?
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      08-26-2007, 10:27 PM   #13
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I superimposed hotrod's runs in his auto jbs1 with my manual jbs2 xi

jpg is fuzzy because each set of graphs given roughly same weight. You can see the smoothness of step vs. effect of gearshift...
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      08-26-2007, 10:36 PM   #14
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Considering your XI weighs a few hundred pounds more, your terminal speeds are stunning. If I can duplicate109 mph runs in my car, version 2 will be a pretty impressive product. And through all this testing, how is drivability? No check engine lights whatsoever? And I assume you are running 93 octane?
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      08-26-2007, 10:42 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hotrod182 View Post
Considering your XI weighs a few hundred pounds more, your terminal speeds are stunning. If I can duplicate109mph runs in my car, version 2 will be a pretty fantastic product. And through all this testing, how is drivability? No check engine lights whatsoever? And I assume you are running 93 octane?
thanks, car is not significantly different except it just pulls and pulls when you floor it. I love it as is and am running 93, shell for yesterday and mobil today. no check engine lights or anything different. as mentioned before only other thing is the left exhaust baffle solenoid disconnect and car has now 1975 miles on odometer.
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      08-26-2007, 10:50 PM   #16
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Im still trying to figure out how in the world you were running as low as 104.xx mph the other day, and then gained like 50 HP!, I know you said you had a bad start, etc. However, terminal speed indicates your horsepower. You can spend the first second spinning for 20 feet, but at the end of the 1/4 mile, that 20ft passes by so fast, that the lost distance doesn't even give you that much time to accelerate as far as MPH is concerned. So thats why I wanted you to run a test again. But since you verified it again, I guess it wasn't a fluke. I wish you had a GTECH graph of what your car was doing stock. I mean if you were getting 107mph stock, then I would say something is wrong. The strip in which you run is pretty flat? No up/down undulations? Well, all you need to do is validate it at the drag strip, and those mph are phenomenal. The extra few hundred lbs should be a couple MPH, and the parasitic loss of the AWD adds to that. So theoretically, if your engine were in a lighter RWD 335i, you could be running 111-112mph. Pretty impressive.

Last edited by hotrod182; 08-28-2007 at 01:54 AM.
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      08-27-2007, 03:41 AM   #17
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$99 is pretty cheap... tempting, but scared.
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      08-27-2007, 06:01 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hotrod182 View Post
Im still trying to figure out how in the world you were running as low as 104.xx mph the other day, and then gained like 50 HP!, I know you said you had a bad start, etc. However, terminal speed indicates your horsepower. You can spend the first second spinning for 20 feet, but at the end of the 1/4 mile, that 20ft passes by so fast, that the lost distance doesn't even give you that much time to accelerate as far as MPH is concerned. So thats why I wanted you to run a test again. But since you verified it again, I guess it wasn't a fluke. I wish you have a GTECH run of what your car was doing stock. I mean if you were getting 107mph stock, then I would say something is wrong. The strip in which you run is pretty flat? No up/down undulations? Well, all you need to do is validate it at the drag strip, and those mph are phenomenal. The extra few hundred lbs should be a couple MPH, and the parasitic loss of the AWD adds to that. So theoretically, if your engine were in a lighter RWD 335i, you could be running 111-112mph. Pretty impressive.
Well, i will probably do a stock set of runs before installing the v2 procede
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      08-27-2007, 01:25 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by E90ice View Post
Another thread that will be closed soon.
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      08-27-2007, 01:59 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dinkoh View Post
$99 is pretty cheap... tempting, but scared.
If you look at the dynos and A/F ratios Mr.5 did you shouldn't be scared of the JB1.
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      08-27-2007, 11:38 PM   #21
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Been driving around for two days with the JB stg 1. Feels stock under normal throttle. But when you are on boost, from mid, higher rpms, you definitely feel the "fatter" torque curve. Punch it at 40mph, and when the steptronic down shifts, it definitely throws you back in the seat pretty hard. I drove around a friend who has a 6M 335i, and let him drive my car too. He was definitely impressed. The JB1 equipped 335i is exactly how you would think a factory set up should behave. I would say that 4.65-4.75 secs 0-60, and 13.15-13.30 second 1/4 miles @107mph are achievable on stock tires, sea level, 60F approx. And with 93 Octane, it should be even easier to achieve these numbers. I would say that with drag radials, going into the 12's from a 13.15 should be totally achievable. Ran against a Supercharged Lightning yesterday. His blower was so damn loud. His license plate frame said "Today's Menu" "Smoked Rice". Couldn't resist his invitation to run. Should beat a stock lightning easily, but at the track I saw a built GTO beat by a built lightning. (Both ran around a 12 flat!) With this particular Lightning, I got a bad start but I pulled him, slowly but surely. I can't tell you how that extra 1.5mph really helps in a close race. Any ways, for those of you on the fence, and waiting for the perfect high dollar mod solution, this is a nice interim solution. You could get headers and intake on a normal car, and still not get the gains of this mod for under $200. And with the minimal boost increase, within the factory knock retard envelope, I don't thing there is anything to worry about as far as reliability.

Last edited by hotrod182; 08-28-2007 at 01:57 AM.
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      08-28-2007, 09:05 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hotrod182 View Post
Been driving around for two days with the JB stg 1. Feels stock under normal throttle. But when you are on boost, from mid, higher rpms, you definitely feel the "fatter" torque curve. Punch it at 40mph, and when the steptronic down shifts, it definitely throws you back in the seat pretty hard. I drove around a friend who has a 6M 335i, and let him drive my car too. He was definitely impressed. The JB1 equipped 335i is exactly how you would think a factory set up should behave. I would say that 4.65-4.75 secs 0-60, and 13.15-13.30 second 1/4 miles @107mph are achievable on stock tires, sea level, 60F approx. And with 93 Octane, it should be even easier to achieve these numbers. I would say that with drag radials, going into the 12's from a 13.15 should be totally achievable. Ran against a Supercharged Lightning yesterday. His blower was so damn loud. His license plate frame said "Today's Menu" "Smoked Rice". Couldn't resist his invitation to run. Should beat a stock lightning easily, but at the track I saw a built GTO beat by a built lightning. (Both ran around a 12 flat!) With this particular Lightning, I got a bad start but I pulled him, slowly but surely. I can't tell you how that extra 1.5mph really helps in a close race. Any ways, for those of you on the fence, and waiting for the perfect high dollar mod solution, this is a nice interim solution. You could get headers and intake on a normal car, and still not get the gains of this mod for under $200. And with the minimal boost increase, within the factory knock retard envelope, I don't thing there is anything to worry about as far as reliability.
Just wanted to provide follow-up. Been using JB S2 now for the past 5 days (i know that's very short) but am really enjoying it, along the same lines as Hotrod, you get a nice steady shove in the back, and driveability is excellent. No CEL/Engine Lights etc. car running great otherwise.
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