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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > M3 V8s - no torque!



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      03-11-2013, 08:09 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by BEAR-AvHistory View Post
No point in going any further according to BMW the M3 weighs 122lbs more then a 335 & 265lbs more then a 135 or about half the guess.
Alright, no argument here. Wasn't looking to even discuss it.

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The rest of the post is "what if" not what happened.
It's actually not a hypothetical, it's not dealing with "What if". The point, which you acknowledge later in your response is that the N54 and S65 cars can both be made fast.

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Next time its an all new game so "what if" Vishnu gets his ST's on track.
Then there will be a really fast single turbo N54 out there. Awesome. Fast cars are fun. And, there will be more proof that an N54 can be made fast, just as an S65 can be made fast.

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Thing is all these cars, 135/328/335/M3, are modifications on the same basic hull. What some people seem to be unhappy about in some specific competitive events the low priced spread is very effective.
Not quite sure what you are saying here but, I think you are trying to say that the difference between modified N54s and S65s are very small, in objective terms, when competing? If so, I agree

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For example RB turbos for $2699 a set vs $7995 for a VT1-550 while the VT2-650 runs 13,995 & the VT3 looks like it might be a complete engine rebuild with low compression pistons etc.
You are correct about the VT3. It is a rebuild with a forged, low compression rotating assembly.

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Bottom line is Longboarder had a very good day & on that specific day Terry had a better one. Next time out it could easily be reversed that’s competition.
There were very fast N54s and S65s at that event. Lots of BMW drivers fielded very fast cars and had much success. However, my point isn't commentary on the results of the competition. That is incidental. My point deals with the performance capabilities of modified versions of these cars. So, the bottom line has little to do with Longborder's and Terry's successes.

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What you are not dealing with is an N54 with FBO’s, RB’s & Meth is a very fast car & competitive with a lot of sacred cows. Its not only fast but according to the definition provided to me on the site a bolt on car is not heavily not heavily modified.

I'm not quite sure what your last sentence is saying but, I assume it's that an FBO N54 isn't technically a heavily modified vehicle?
Okay, that's fine. I'm not here to argue semantics. I'm here to say that both an N54 and an S65 can be made to be very fast. And so, I did "deal" with the N54, meth and RBs. In fact, I even mentioned custom turbos in my first post in this thread.


To reiterate my original point, I said that both vehicles can be fast and that there is no point in arguing one to be superior that the other in absolute terms. The choice to buy one over the other is entirely emotional. Either way, you can have a fast car for track driving or drag racing, the path is just different.


Give my post a read again, we really are on the same side of this "argument".
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      03-11-2013, 09:24 PM   #68
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^ to the point, I think many would argue a supercharged m3 is a steep investment and not worth it unless it spends it's life on the track. Both cars can be fast, but the n54 is a better performer in terms of streetable/low end power and cost to mod. It's more fun in my opinion, and I can honestly say I've driven a 2012 M3.

Ill enjoy my 135I with a jb4, dci's, otherwise stock, running 30% e85. Killing most cars on the road for less thank 25k.
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      03-11-2013, 09:38 PM   #69
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^ to the point, I think many would argue a supercharged m3 is a steep investment and not worth it unless it spends it's life on the track. Both cars can be fast, but the n54 is a better performer in terms of streetable/low end power and cost to mod. It's more fun in my opinion, and I can honestly say I've driven a 2012 M3.

Ill enjoy my 135I with a jb4, dci's, otherwise stock, running 30% e85. Killing most cars on the road for less thank 25k.
I couldn't disagree with you. An FI E92 M3 is a large investment. You'll get more bang for your buck if you build an N54 properly. But, personal choice isn't always about what's more cost effective. If it were, we would all be driving around in FI Subarus or, turbo Neons.
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      03-12-2013, 07:41 AM   #70
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Didn't we have this argument 25 years ago with the ///M3 and the 325is?

One is a daily driver grocery getter and one is a track toy. 99% of the cars sold are to people who only put gas in them and take them in for maint until the lease is up. You guys are the 1% who will argue over length vs girth. Nobody has both.

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      03-12-2013, 08:17 AM   #71
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I agree the N54 is better for daily driving and always having the available tq in a way allows you to be lazy with how you drive/shift but its in no way more fun on the street or anywhere. A high revving engine with monster top end will always be way more fun to drive than one that has power that flattens out or even drops off at high rpm.
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      03-12-2013, 08:24 AM   #72
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Didn't we have this argument 25 years ago with the ///M3 and the 325is?

One is a daily driver grocery getter and one is a track toy. 99% of the cars sold are to people who only put gas in them and take them in for maint until the lease is up. You guys are the 1% who will argue over length vs girth. Nobody has both.

T
Fantastic...... brilliant!
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      03-12-2013, 08:38 AM   #73
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      03-12-2013, 08:47 AM   #74
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So, blondes or brunettes? Discuss...
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      03-12-2013, 09:11 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by Mangler View Post
Didn't we have this argument 25 years ago with the ///M3 and the 325is?

One is a daily driver grocery getter and one is a track toy. 99% of the cars sold are to people who only put gas in them and take them in for maint until the lease is up. You guys are the 1% who will argue over length vs girth. Nobody has both.

T
History always repeats itself.
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      03-12-2013, 09:12 AM   #76
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I agree the N54 is better for daily driving and always having the available tq in a way allows you to be lazy with how you drive/shift but its in no way more fun on the street or anywhere. A high revving engine with monster top end will always be way more fun to drive than one that has power that flattens out or even drops off at high rpm.
Yeah man, I'm so lazy on the highway. I almost never downshift to pass, anymore.
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      03-12-2013, 10:11 AM   #77
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So, what I've learned here is pretty much what I knew, both are very nice cars, one more so on the track, the other on the street. It's just that no matter how you slice it...I do so love street confrontations with M3s, makes me giggle like a little school girl.


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Lol this thread has bad news written all over it. I'm not sure what modifications you've made to your car, but it is true stock for stock N54s have more torque on offer down low. Get up to higher speeds and youll be seeing his tail lights though…I don't mean to sound negative, but the N54 vs. S65 threads always end like crap.
You were so right!
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      03-12-2013, 10:18 AM   #78
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Low end torque and mid-range are not as desirable as top end around a road coarse, which is what the M3 was built for. If you compare stock to stock, the S65 is the better engine for racing (not even a question) and the N54 is a better all around engine for daily driving and having some fun. I am sure even the BMW engineers had no idea what potential lied within the N54, as a modified one can easily out-perform a stock and even slightly modified S65.
You're crazy if you think the engineers didn't know what the N54 was capable of. If anything that is why the motor was detuned to where it currently is, in addition to long-term reliability.


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IMO the S65 is a far overrated engine and doesn't respond as well to mods as most like to believe. I honestly do not car about road racing(if you do, good for you but it's just not my thing) how fun the car is to drive on the street is all i care about.

I will tell you this, i ran a FBO m3 vs my FBO+ meth setup and I was easily 3-4 cars ahead at 140mph and he was not magically closing the distance.
The M stands for Motorsports, not MMMMhhh is it fun to drive on the street. If you don't road race, that's fine but to make the statement the S65 is overrated is retarded. The M3 is a purpose built car, you just don't recognize its purpose.
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      03-12-2013, 10:20 AM   #79
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You're crazy if you think the engineers didn't know what the aftermarket had in store for the N54. If anything that is why the motor was detuned to where it currently is, in addition to long-term reliability.
I think they knew people would be turning them but, I'm not sure they knew that we'd reach these sort of levels so quickly and, so easily.
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      03-12-2013, 10:24 AM   #80
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The M3 is a purpose built car, you just don't recognize its purpose.
+1

The M3 is a more focused vehicle. If you are not into road racing, then they purpose is probably lost on you.

I don't see how someone can't though. The forces experienced in road racing are way higher than any street car can see in longitudinal acceleration.
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      03-12-2013, 10:26 AM   #81
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I think they knew people would be turning them but, I'm not sure they knew that we'd reach these sort of levels so quickly and, so easily.
You're wrong. Everyone knows the aftermarket world exists, and if you've been around turbo cars, you know how much bigger the market is. That's like saying Audi/VW engineers had no idea folks would tune the 1.8T and 2.0T to keep up / pass the 4.2l V8 (B6-B7 S4). Companies like Cobb, APR, ESS have been around forever tuning cars.
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      03-12-2013, 11:12 AM   #82
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You're wrong. Everyone knows the aftermarket world exists, and if you've been around turbo cars, you know how much bigger the market is. That's like saying Audi/VW engineers had no idea folks would tune the 1.8T and 2.0T to keep up / pass the 4.2l V8 (B6-B7 S4). Companies like Cobb, APR, ESS have been around forever tuning cars.
Eh. I'm not sure you are seeing the whole picture. Yeah, those companies have been around before but, remember that BMW has produced N/A cars for the vast majority of it's existance. It's much harder and more expensive for an owner to produce big numbers from an N/A straight 6 or a high revving V8. BMW could have taken a hint from Audi/VW but, I belive they missed the mark, for the following reasons:

I didn't say anything about the size of the market. I spoke specifically about speed. I say this because BMWNA has become much more aggressive about voiding warranties and about making people buy out leases, on modified cars. They were not so intolerant when the N54 was young. They have become this way because of the pervasiveness of modified N55/N55s. They are just so damn easy to modify, after all. I think BMW knew people would modify the cars but, I think they underestimated the demand, prevelance, ease and speed with which tuners and owners would create and adopt these modifications.

Furthermore, the new security features on the F10 M5 speak volumes to me about BMWs distaste for modifications on their FI motors, and about how much of a problem they percieve those modifications to be. (edit, take a look at the aftermarket for Subarus, for example. Those cars have used small FI motors for decades but, Subaru has done nothing to stop tuners from turning out cars with massive amounts of wheel power. I think that it's part of the appeal, so does Subaru, IMO)

If the aftermarket and the owners were much slower to adopt these mods, I doubt BMW would be so aggressive about voiding warranties. And, I doubt they would have put so much effort into hardening their DMEs in the latest FI models.

Take a look at the aftermarket for the N/A M models. It's been around for OVER 30 years and, it's extremely visable. Yet, BMW isn't watching M3 owners like they are N54/N55 owners. They underestimated the number of modified *35 cars that would be rolling into dealer service bays with non-OEM parts/code. BMW didn't think the aftermarket would be so hasty, IMO. And so, I'm willing to bet that those same tuners are going to have a REALLY hard time cracking the encryption on the DMEs in the M2/M3/M4, when they debut.

If BMW was so cognizant of the aftermarket for their FI models when the N54 was being designed, I'd bet they would have done long ago when they are doing now. But, they didn't. The E9x DME is cake to tune.

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      03-12-2013, 11:23 AM   #83
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I didn't say anything about the size of the market. I spoke specifically about speed. I say this because BMWNA has become much more aggressive about voiding warranties and about making people buy out leases on modified cars. They were not so intolerant when the N54 was young. They have become this way because of the pervasiveness of modified N55/N55s. They are just so damn easy to modify, after all. I think BMW knew people would modify the cars but, I think they underestimated the demand, prevelance, ease and speed with which tuners and owners would create and adopt these modifications.

Furthermore, the new security features on the F10 M5 speak volumes to me about BMWs distaste for modifications on their FI motors, and about how much of a problem they percieve those modifications to be.

If the aftermarket and the owners were much slower to adopt these mods, I doubt BMW would be so aggressive about voiding warranties. And, I doubt they would have put so much effort into hardening their DMEs in the latest FI models.

Take a look at the aftermarket for the N/A M models. It's been around for OVER 30 years and, it's extremely visable. Yet, BMW isn't watching M3 owners like they are N54/N55 owners. They underestimated the number of modified *35 cars that would be rolling into dealer service bays with non-OEM parts/code. BMW didn't think the aftermarket would be so hasty, IMO.
Right and what I'm saying is that VW/Audi cars are just as bad and their 4cyl turbo cars have been out for much longer than the n54/55 (people have been tuning the 1.8T since 1999). Every GTI/GLI/A3/A4 owned by someone younger than 30 is most likely tuned and dealers are just as quick to void your warranty. So you can be sure BMW knew it was just a matter of time.

Every car manufacturer knows how popular and cheap ecu tuning for a turbo car is. BMW being quick to void warranties is not a reaction to any unforeseen response by customers, it was a given in my opinion. But this is off-topic, the point is the S65 is not underrated =)
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      03-12-2013, 11:35 AM   #84
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Right and what I'm saying is that VW/Audi cars are just as bad and their 4cyl turbo cars have been out for much longer than the n54/55 (people have been tuning the 1.8T since 1999). Every GTI/GLI/A3/A4 owned by someone younger than 30 is most likely tuned and dealers are just as quick to void your warranty. So you can be sure BMW knew it was just a matter of time.

Every car manufacturer knows how popular and cheap ecu tuning for a turbo car is. BMW being quick to void warranties is not a reaction to any unforeseen response by customers, it was a given in my opinion. But this is off-topic, the point is the S65 is not underrated =)
Ah, I see. Well, I was surprised because BMW's original policies weren't so bullish. I would have thought that every N54 would have come with a stern warning against ECU tuning. But meh. My warranty is almost up and, I enjoy my tuned N54 every time I step on the gas.

And yeah, the S65 isn't underrated.
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      03-12-2013, 11:57 AM   #85
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Ah, I see. Well, I was surprised because BMW's original policies weren't so bullish. I would have thought that every N54 would have come with a stern warning against ECU tuning. But meh. My warranty is almost up and, I enjoy my tuned N54 every time I step on the gas.

And yeah, the S65 isn't underrated.
It's almost like the elephant in the room. Had they come out and mentioned it from day 1, then they're just acknowledging the product/service even exists and probably don't feel the need to provide free advertising. And let's be honest, how many times have we read about a dealer trying deny a warranty claim on some totally unrelated mod. "We can't replace the broken headlight because it resulted from the use of aftermarket springs that caused a non-factory like ride quality." It seems like they were always bullish on trying to deny you free work if possible.
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      03-12-2013, 02:27 PM   #86
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It's almost like the elephant in the room. Had they come out and mentioned it from day 1, then they're just acknowledging the product/service even exists and probably don't feel the need to provide free advertising. And let's be honest, how many times have we read about a dealer trying deny a warranty claim on some totally unrelated mod. "We can't replace the broken headlight because it resulted from the use of aftermarket springs that caused a non-factory like ride quality." It seems like they were always bullish on trying to deny you free work if possible.
Is that their standard positon? Deny the existance of aftermarket products, until the point when someone comes in with coilovers and downpipes? I would think that people interested in tuning are not going to find out about it by reading the warranty agreement. They will either already know or, will know where to find out.

But, I'm just some name and number on some papers somewhere. What do I know about warrantying millions of vehicles?


IMO, if you decide to mod, always have the funds to deal with the conseqences, if something goes boom. Always have a beater, because those commute miles can have a much more detrimental effect that most think.
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      03-12-2013, 03:04 PM   #87
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The M stands for Motorsports, not MMMMhhh is it fun to drive on the street. If you don't road race, that's fine but to make the statement the S65 is overrated is retarded. The M3 is a purpose built car, you just don't recognize its purpose.
What % of the E9X based M3's have ever been close to a road course?
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      03-12-2013, 03:51 PM   #88
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Why the N54 is a pain in my ass at track events.

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=412156


S65 will just make those weekends so much more fun.
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