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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Technical: Supplemental Port Injection



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      03-17-2013, 10:58 PM   #1
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Technical: Supplemental Port Injection

So with the VTTS3 on the horizon, we can once again see our fueling limits. With turbo options and boost capabilities beyond the capacity of our fuel system we can sit here and wait for the unicorn HPFP upgrade that never seems to appear or find our own solutions. From my chair, I see two options:

1) Wait for ProEFI, pony up for the Standalone + Custom Intake Manifold

2) Fabricate a TB Spacer and/or custom CP with a single Supplemental Batch Fire injector controlled by a piggy.

I'm personally leaning toward option #2 in terms of wide spread adoption. Our DME is smart enough to compensate for the lack of extreme precision batchfire through a piggyback would provide and reduces the overall cost of getting more REAL fuel into the combustion chamber.

I personally have brought this up and shiv@vishnu and co and he has mentioned that this is possible however I feel that there is another agenda there blocking this option. It is not the best option but its a solution to a huge problem holding this platform back. If he were to change his mind and provide a product then I would be surprised.

So at this point I think I'm going to challenge Terry@BMS and ask, are you capable of introducing this injector? It would show the true flexibility of a piggyback I think we just need to do it already. Comments?


UPDATE: A reputable shop in the Van Nuys area has offered to make a spacer for us to test if he can get a mule car!

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If I can get a car I can make the tb spacer with two additional injectors for someone to test. This is how we did it on the supercharged Aston vantages we tuned. It worked very well.

Also, if the piggy tuners won't step up and offer this, then here is a controller that will do the job and have made contact with an individual who has used this controller before and says it will work. We may need an external boost sensor as an addon:

http://www.034motorsport.com/supplem...-ecu-a-32.html

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Operating Temperature -40 to +85° C
Battery Voltage Range +6.0 to +20 VDC continuous
Current Consumption 0.05 - 16 Amperes [@ 100% duty cycle]
Injector impedance 1.0-1.4, 2.0-4.0 and 12+ ohms
Maximum RPM 16,000
Injection Timing Resolution 1 microsecond to 65.535 millisecond [16 bits]
Communications High Speed RS-232 with STD 9 pin D interface
Packaging Extruded aluminum casing [4.0 L, 2.0 W, 2.0H]
Programming/Tuning VIA WIN95/WIN98 and RS-232 port
Engine Support: Phased
Manifold Pressure: 2.5 Bar/ATM [Provided in enclosure] up to 265 Kpa or 2.65 Bar Absolute.
Trigger Modes: Hall Effect Sensor (5 window factory or cam gear equipped), or ignition trigger output. 0-5 volt signal or low current 12v signal, negative coil high current trigger will damage IC and is not covered under warranty.See SIC Virtual Dashboard

Supplementary ECU FEATURES:

32 Bit Graphical Programming Package:
To ensure that programming and tuning of the Supplementary ECU is as simple and pain free as possible, it has been developed as a software package that runs under 32-bit Windows programming that is both intuitive and packed full of features that power users want and need for flexibility. Each unit comes with programming software, which allows full monitoring of all sensory inputs, and allows full tuning capabilities.3 Dimensional 8 X 16 matrix Fuel Mapping:
16RPM (X axis) points by 8 Manifold pressure (Y axis) forming an 8 X 16 matrix (128 points) allows very detailed programming of the fuel curve. The engine specific behavior can be adjusted as required to accommodate poor volumetric efficiency due to cam overlap, engine resonance, or other engine specific issues that can be attributed to a specific manifold pressure/RPM range. Many engines require little or no adjustment of the mapping parameters, while modified, high compression, or heavily cammed engines may need some work in the mapping, particularly at lower RPMs where manifold vacuum is poor or unstable.
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      03-17-2013, 11:21 PM   #2
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leaving the direct injection is not the way to go. the engine was not designed for port injection. + wet walling will be an issue when we start dumping serious fuel into the pistons.
and you can just use the NOS relay on the jb4 it will activate the injector @ 3k rpms i think and supply the fuel needed. the used it for the air intake meth injection.
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      03-18-2013, 12:24 AM   #3
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My personal opinion on this is that the only way to have a reliable long lasting solution is to have a HPFP that can keep up with the fueling demand. We don't have that yet but now that there is a need a solution may soon follow. Having a secondary PI system isn't a bad idea, but it's just not the right idea.

I feel like if someone were to SERIOUSLY inquire about an upgraded pump(IE cash in hand, not "just wondering") then they just may be able to get the ball rolling with a company like Autotech or someone similar
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      03-18-2013, 03:00 AM   #4
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I'll make the same replies. Get back to me when your upgraded fuel pump is here. With that said, this company makes a controller pecifically for this purpose. Whose in van Nuys area with an hours time for measurements?
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      03-18-2013, 01:29 PM   #5
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Update, got a new message. There is already a controller they make which will be able to work with the new hardware. Just need someone to lend a car and then a few people willing to test out the prototypes.

Quote:
I would only need the car for a few hours to take some dimensions. It takes me about 30 minutes to dimension a tb and I would need to dim the car for space restrictions. We could use 2 siemens dekka short style injectors. They work very well. We use the 60lb variant on our e39 m5 sc kits. We also have a fuel controller that we developed specifically for this purpose. We used it on the e46 m3 but it's the same idea. Or there are plenty of other fueling controllers out there that can get the job done.

I think this could be an interesting project. I could make a few prototypes and we can get them out to a few people who are willing to test it out. It can be user tunable too. That way small adjustments could be made on a dyno. If you or anyone else can get me a car for a couple hours I can crank out a cad file and have something to work with.
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      03-18-2013, 05:31 PM   #6
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Don't look now, but what you describe is already installed and working on many 335's.
They have suppemental injectors, external pump plumbed with a dedicated fuel line, controlled by piggyback, injects high octane fuel, and proven to make great power.
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      03-18-2013, 06:02 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave W. View Post
Don't look now, but what you describe is already installed and working on many 335's.
They have suppemental injectors, external pump plumbed with a dedicated fuel line, controlled by piggyback, injects high octane fuel, and proven to make great power.
And whose 335's are these?
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      03-18-2013, 06:04 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by klipseracer View Post
And whose 335's are these?
Everyone running meth injection lol
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      03-18-2013, 06:08 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ænema View Post
Everyone running meth injection lol
This is a good point, as the DME has shown to dynamically adjust trims well, and bodes well for this solution. E85 through a proper TBI > Meth through 4 bungs throughout the intake system. I don't see Meth taking us from 550hp to 900.
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      03-18-2013, 06:21 PM   #10
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haha sorry to be such a tease, but yeah I was talking about meth injection.

But seriously, why not meth injection? We already have enough fuel for stock turbos through the stock fuel system, any extra fuel needed above that power level will most likely need to be higher octane fuel. Perhaps we should be looking at ways to take the standard meth injection kit up to the next level?
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      03-18-2013, 06:45 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave W. View Post
haha sorry to be such a tease, but yeah I was talking about meth injection.

But seriously, why not meth injection? We already have enough fuel for stock turbos through the stock fuel system, any extra fuel needed above that power level will most likely need to be higher octane fuel. Perhaps we should be looking at ways to take the standard meth injection kit up to the next level?
I ran a snow kit before... I just don't like having to fill it, buy separate fuel, clean it, maintain it or know I've got pushlocks all over the place. This would be a very simple Y split off the LPFP line inside the engine bay, no need to run more fuel lines. Besides, as a fuel, E85 does a better job for the purpose IMO. Just fill the tank with E85 like many people do already, and it pumps it into the Intake Manifold. Simple. No need to babysit the meth system, clogs, etc. I'm not saying you can't run meth, however when considering the energy content of E85 vs Methanol, E85 wins. Not to mention, it would use a Siemens injector on some type of alluminum spacer(simple no moving parts), and the rest are factory components, which I would trust anyday over depending on multiple methanol nozzles, tank in the trunk or fender, plastic tubes running the length of the car inside the cabin or out, push lock fittings on most applications, and an independent pump.

Using Meth as an octane additive and or an IAT suppressor is fine. Thats what its best at. Using it as a crutch to replace fueling for 100's of horsepower just seems silly when its coming out of a plastic tank to me. Just my .02 cents. lets use a real fuel injector, real fuel pump and fuel from the tank we don't have to refill or clean.
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      06-13-2013, 03:52 PM   #12
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oh hai
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      06-13-2013, 08:11 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by klipseracer View Post
I ran a snow kit before... I just don't like having to fill it, buy separate fuel, clean it, maintain it or know I've got pushlocks all over the place. This would be a very simple Y split off the LPFP line inside the engine bay, no need to run more fuel lines. Besides, as a fuel, E85 does a better job for the purpose IMO. Just fill the tank with E85 like many people do already, and it pumps it into the Intake Manifold. Simple. No need to babysit the meth system, clogs, etc. I'm not saying you can't run meth, however when considering the energy content of E85 vs Methanol, E85 wins. Not to mention, it would use a Siemens injector on some type of alluminum spacer(simple no moving parts), and the rest are factory components, which I would trust anyday over depending on multiple methanol nozzles, tank in the trunk or fender, plastic tubes running the length of the car inside the cabin or out, push lock fittings on most applications, and an independent pump.

Using Meth as an octane additive and or an IAT suppressor is fine. Thats what its best at. Using it as a crutch to replace fueling for 100's of horsepower just seems silly when its coming out of a plastic tank to me. Just my .02 cents. lets use a real fuel injector, real fuel pump and fuel from the tank we don't have to refill or clean.
Let me get this straight...you're not ok with multiple sources(one fails the others keep working), but you're ok with just one? Also, when the stock injectors are providing 700hp(700/6 injectors = ~117hp per injector) how do you assume that 1 more is gonna give you hundreds more? Not to mention, trying to make lots of extra power off of uneven fueling does NOT sound like a good way to treat a high hp engine.
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      06-13-2013, 10:34 PM   #14
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Lamborghini Gallardo LP 550/560/570's use direct-injection. Since I work at Lamborghini Newport Beach, I can inquire about pricing. I'll try and remember to ask our parts guy the price.
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      06-14-2013, 09:06 AM   #15
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Quote:
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Lamborghini Gallardo LP 550/560/570's use direct-injection. Since I work at Lamborghini Newport Beach, I can inquire about pricing. I'll try and remember to ask our parts guy the price.
Price on what? If parts could cross over and give more fueling, that would be nice!
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      06-14-2013, 02:21 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pwr hungry View Post
Let me get this straight...you're not ok with multiple sources(one fails the others keep working), but you're ok with just one? Also, when the stock injectors are providing 700hp(700/6 injectors = ~117hp per injector) how do you assume that 1 more is gonna give you hundreds more? Not to mention, trying to make lots of extra power off of uneven fueling does NOT sound like a good way to treat a high hp engine.
No, you're not getting this straight. And you apparently have no idea whats going on.

Oh, so you must know all the details of this project? That means you also should know it uses two injectors.

You are making a pretty novice mistake by assuming that the injectors on this car are limited to as you say, "117hp" per injector. Firstly, the injectors on this car can flow a hell of a lot more than that. Who said the injectors were the problem? Apparently you are and that just shows how off base you are. They aren't the issue. The rest of the fueling system is the issue. You also assume we would use the same kind of injector. Why in the world would anyone put a direct injection injector into a Throttle Body spacer? You are clueless apparently. Go get some facts on how much power a single port injector can handle, double that and then get back to me. If thats not enough 'supplemental' fuel on top of what the existing fuel system can do, then maybe you should tell me what your expectations are.

The shop making this spacer has made the system fuel a supercharged Aston Martin Vantage V8 up to 550hp on just the two additional injectors, but apparently you have done more and know more.

Are you trying to tell me that Methanol is a better and more reliable fueling source than fuel coming out of the tank using a REAL injector with a fuel rail? Wow man. I've got nothing to say about that one. Uneven fueling? Do you even know what that means? Because I don't. You mean, supplemental fueling? Do you know what supplemental means? Not to mention, supplemental fueling can come from a dedicated tank in the trunk with its own pump if need be. Advocating supplmental fueling isn't synonomous with not using a secondary fuel cell if need be. You can have both and you are assuming that only methanol can do this. Not True. I ran meth on my car. I liked it. Anyone who knows anything about how injectors or fueling systems work would advocate a PROPERLY configured supplemental fueling system as an interim until we get a fully upgraded stock fuel system.


Next...

Last edited by klipseracer; 06-14-2013 at 02:32 PM.
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      06-14-2013, 02:36 PM   #17
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The status is: Someone needs to bring their car for an hour or so to Van Nuys for simple measurements for clearance. I've included a few photos of their work on the Vantage. The fueling works, and they can tune it. If someone wants fuel, PM me and I'll setup the meet.
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      06-14-2013, 02:44 PM   #18
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Doesn't Vargas offer a upgraded HPFP ????
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      06-14-2013, 02:50 PM   #19
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Quote:
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Doesn't Vargas offer a upgraded HPFP ????
I thought it was like a modification they did, not a whole new pump. They were pretty cryptic about it though, from what I remember. I was looking around for more information on this in general recently and didn't come up with much.

I could have sworn I remembered reading someone from Vargas saying something about fixing the fueling problem, and insinuating that the other tuners just hadn't figured it out yet.

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      06-14-2013, 02:54 PM   #20
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From what I've read there are still fueling issues around 5500rpm. This is a very interesting thread gentleman. My faith in the internet is restored, keep it up!
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      06-14-2013, 04:26 PM   #21
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What size fuel injectors do you plan to run?
IMHO I would not want to run this type of system on regular pump gas. As power levels go up it's even more important to increase octane and cool the intake charge to prevent knock. I think we've already seen the limits of power on low octane fuels. I mean, if you want to prevent knock on low octane gas there is a limit to how much timing you can pull out and how rich you can make the AF ratio.

'Uneven fueling', I think that means each cylinder does not receive the same amount of fuel when it's injected at the throttle body. Modern intake manifolds are not designed to distribute fuel evenly, they don't have to since port or direct injection handles the fuel very evenly. Fuel is heavier than air, and it's more difficult for fuel to go around curves in the plenum without wetting the far wall. Uneven fueling is the reason some of the better meth injection kits are locating the injectors farther away from the TB, it helps dispersion and atomization. Also, one of the better meth kits on the market already uses pulse width modulation to control meth flow, just like a fuel injector. Tell me again how your idea is better?
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      06-14-2013, 05:19 PM   #22
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The big HP supras and Evos -- did they have to run higher octane and/or meth? Is it just a limit of how much you can compress pump gas before it starts detonating? Is it really just a fueling problem at this point? Forgive my ignorance, and thanks in advance to anyone that takes the time to help explain this to me.
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