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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Technical: Supplemental Port Injection



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      06-14-2013, 05:25 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave W. View Post
What size fuel injectors do you plan to run?
The only information he's given mis a Siemens Deka Short.


Quote:
IMHO I would not want to run this type of system on regular pump gas. As power levels go up it's even more important to increase octane and cool the intake charge to prevent knock. I think we've already seen the limits of power on low octane fuels. I mean, if you want to prevent knock on low octane gas there is a limit to how much timing you can pull out and how rich you can make the AF ratio.
I agree. This would be useful for e85 and racegas. Above 600-650 I think a special fuel should be used of some kind.

Quote:
'Uneven fueling', I think that means each cylinder does not receive the same amount of fuel when it's injected at the throttle body. Modern intake manifolds are not designed to distribute fuel evenly, they don't have to since port or direct injection handles the fuel very evenly. Fuel is heavier than air, and it's more difficult for fuel to go around curves in the plenum without wetting the far wall. Uneven fueling is the reason some of the better meth injection kits are locating the injectors farther away from the TB, it helps dispersion and atomization. Also, one of the better meth kits on the market already uses pulse width modulation to control meth flow, just like a fuel injector. Tell me again how your idea is better?
In short Dave, its better for many reasons. With anything, there is give and take. Can you give me one advantage that this has? Or are you one of those who can't give any credit to something that you don't entirely agree with? Who is stopping you from using methanol on top of supplemental fueling? I'm not. The delivery of fuel through a fuel injector, made for injecting fuel is far superior than a methanol sprinkler nozzle which sprays water/fuel all around in the charge pipe, drips and certainly pools up whether you guys want to believe it or not. Would you rather have a fuel rail or plastic push locks? The fact is, many people don't run PWM and it works for what it does. Now that PWM exists, anything thats not PWM will grenade your car and should never be used. I'm not asking you to believe its better. But for someone who is willing to take some measurements, I can bring proof to your eyes that the solution works because thats the only thing that will convince some of you. As it seems many are interested in stifling this platform instead of helping explore alternative options. If you think that methanol is the god of fuels and will take you to 1000hp on the stock fueling system, then go right ahead. Once you're there, tell me how that worked out and how much better meth was.

Any tuner tasked with taking this car from 450hp to 1000hp wouldn't advise methanol shot down the charge pipe to handle the remaining 550hp of fuel. On the other hand, it can be done with supplemental fueling, using an external fuel cell or fuel right out of the tank. You will see. Also keep in mind, this shop is already in the process of making a 6 port injector plate. This will cater to different people with different needs and power goals. A Throttle Body Injector works. It may not be the ultimate fuel solution, but certainly providing fueling on a more reliable basis than push lock meth nozzles. Anyone disagree with that, then keep running your windshield washer tanks and running meth lines through your interior. Good luck.
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      06-14-2013, 08:19 PM   #24
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Klipseracer...you are one angry dude. I can almost promise you that no one will do anything you ask, and simply because you have yet to figure out that you attract more flies with honey. Good luck with trying to bully people into being the guinea pigs for you.
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      06-14-2013, 08:41 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by klipseracer View Post
In short Dave, its better for many reasons. With anything, there is give and take. Can you give me one advantage that this has?
Well, if I had to answer this question, I'd say that it has the potential to add roughly 100hp worth of extra fuel, but I can't be certain since I don't know the injector size. If I knew the injector size and type of fuel I could figure out how much extra HP you could potentially get from the extra fuel.

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Originally Posted by klipseracer View Post
Or are you one of those who can't give any credit to something that you don't entirely agree with? Who is stopping you from using methanol on top of supplemental fueling? I'm not.
whoops, what's this? That's probably not the best reply since the questions I just asked are probably the two most common question any potential customer would ask you. How much power can this fuel system support, or if you don't have a HP estimate, how big are the injectors, and how is it better than the other current offerings?

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Originally Posted by klipseracer View Post
The delivery of fuel through a fuel injector, made for injecting fuel is far superior than a methanol sprinkler nozzle which sprays water/fuel all around in the charge pipe, drips and certainly pools up whether you guys want to believe it or not. Would you rather have a fuel rail or plastic push locks? The fact is, many people don't run PWM and it works for what it does. Now that PWM exists, anything thats not PWM will grenade your car and should never be used. I'm not asking you to believe its better. But for someone who is willing to take some measurements, I can bring proof to your eyes that the solution works because thats the only thing that will convince some of you. As it seems many are interested in stifling this platform instead of helping explore alternative options. If you think that methanol is the god of fuels and will take you to 1000hp on the stock fueling system, then go right ahead. Once you're there, tell me how that worked out and how much better meth was.

Any tuner tasked with taking this car from 450hp to 1000hp wouldn't advise methanol shot down the charge pipe to handle the remaining 550hp of fuel. On the other hand, it can be done with supplemental fueling, using an external fuel cell or fuel right out of the tank. You will see. Also keep in mind, this shop is already in the process of making a 6 port injector plate. This will cater to different people with different needs and power goals. A Throttle Body Injector works. It may not be the ultimate fuel solution, but certainly providing fueling on a more reliable basis than push lock meth nozzles. Anyone disagree with that, then keep running your windshield washer tanks and running meth lines through your interior. Good luck.
Don't look now but one of the better tuners has already squeezed 600whp out of the stock injectors, stock hpfp, just an upgraded in-tank pump using 100%
E85. No meth. The limits of the fuel system are pretty high. The people who are pushing high HP out of these engines would be well advised to avoid cheap meth systems, no doubt. If you're going to offer an alternative fuel solution it should have some advantage over the better meth kits out there. Probably not a good idea to compare your prototype to the cheapest, least reliable meth kits. I'll be right alongside of you ranting about the cheap meth kits, they're garbage barely suitable for a 400hp car.
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      06-14-2013, 09:17 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by klipseracer
The status is: Someone needs to bring their car for an hour or so to Van Nuys for simple measurements for clearance. I've included a few photos of their work on the Vantage. The fueling works, and they can tune it. If someone wants fuel, PM me and I'll setup the meet.
Where is van nuys? I am away on business for 2 weeks sooo technically my car would be available. I'm sure if they could produce a good product that was priced competitively with Vargas hpfp it would very welcomed by the community
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      06-14-2013, 09:17 PM   #27
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I have semi-followed this discussion and may not remember the specifics.

If you are proposing TB injection you have to consider distribution. There is some merit to same fuel being injected as distribution of octane doesn't matter.... only fuel and with supplement to DI you'll have capacity. BUT you could have diversion between specific bank injectors which DME adjustment is based on each bank (3 cyl), not individual cyl. This would widen the lean/rich difference between cyl extremes.

If you are looking for a better alternative then meth upstream, I would think 6 port injection is the only option... but this adds a crap ton more complexity. And should be monitored... similarly to progressive tuning. DME is great at running lean without raising a flag and flash tuning so far keeps or reduces stock like sensitivity.

Progressive tuning meth injection is very good and is supporting upwards of 700HP and potentially more. When injected upstream this is second to DI capacity IMO.
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      06-16-2013, 04:12 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tjnitsche View Post
Where is van nuys? I am away on business for 2 weeks sooo technically my car would be available. I'm sure if they could produce a good product that was priced competitively with Vargas hpfp it would very welcomed by the community
Only need the car for an hour or two. Ill send you a pm.

This will be competetive and potentially complimentary to the vargas upgrade.
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      06-16-2013, 04:19 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave W. View Post
Well, if I had to answer this question, I'd say that it has the potential to add roughly 100hp worth of extra fuel, but I can't be certain since I don't know the injector size. If I knew the injector size and type of fuel I could figure out how much extra HP you could potentially get from the extra fuel.


whoops, what's this? That's probably not the best reply since the questions I just asked are probably the two most common question any potential customer would ask you. How much power can this fuel system support, or if you don't have a HP estimate, how big are the injectors, and how is it better than the other current offerings?



Don't look now but one of the better tuners has already squeezed 600whp out of the stock injectors, stock hpfp, just an upgraded in-tank pump using 100%
E85. No meth. The limits of the fuel system are pretty high. The people who are pushing high HP out of these engines would be well advised to avoid cheap meth systems, no doubt. If you're going to offer an alternative fuel solution it should have some advantage over the better meth kits out there. Probably not a good idea to compare your prototype to the cheapest, least reliable meth kits. I'll be right alongside of you ranting about the cheap meth kits, they're garbage barely suitable for a 400hp car.
The higher end meth kits can definitely do a good job at what they do. I wont take this away. But supplemental fueling by way of e85/racefuel is going to be better and if anything, it will raise the ceiling on where you can go with a meth kit of any grade.
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      06-16-2013, 04:27 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pwr hungry View Post
Klipseracer...you are one angry dude. I can almost promise you that no one will do anything you ask, and simply because you have yet to figure out that you attract more flies with honey. Good luck with trying to bully people into being the guinea pigs for you.
Im sick of people like you with nothing to contribute with an apparent goal of dragging this platform down instead. This isnt my product. And your definitely not the fly im trying to attract if I had one. Im looking for someone willing to lend a car for measurements to a shop that has a desire to produce this piece for us and has experience with this same type of piece on other platforms. If thats not you, go start a thread about why this doesnt appeal to you. This throttle body spacef will lead to a six port injector plate among other things. One step at a time. If you like to take a different path, do it im not stopping you.

Bully people into doing this for me? I dont even have an N54 any more, what have I to gain, this is for you more than it is for me. Instead of trying to portray my defense of an idea coming to fruition, perhaps you should keep your mouth closed.
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      06-16-2013, 04:45 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshboody View Post
I have semi-followed this discussion and may not remember the specifics.

If you are proposing TB injection you have to consider distribution. There is some merit to same fuel being injected as distribution of octane doesn't matter.... only fuel and with supplement to DI you'll have capacity. BUT you could have diversion between specific bank injectors which DME adjustment is based on each bank (3 cyl), not individual cyl. This would widen the lean/rich difference between cyl extremes.

If you are looking for a better alternative then meth upstream, I would think 6 port injection is the only option... but this adds a crap ton more complexity. And should be monitored... similarly to progressive tuning. DME is great at running lean without raising a flag and flash tuning so far keeps or reduces stock like sensitivity.

Progressive tuning meth injection is very good and is supporting upwards of 700HP and potentially more. When injected upstream this is second to DI capacity IMO.
You have stated possible scenarios. These are real possibilities. So is your fail safe failing. So is your meth pump failing, which is not made for 100% meth. There are several things that can go wrong, ive been around long enough to see meth kits not flow countless times. Ive seen all kinds of errors related to quality methanol kits. Lets give this a chance and see what really happens before we make premature conclusions.

Here is a question, do you guys hope it could work well? If not, then your hoping it wont. Lets see what it can do first. Not beat it down.
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      06-16-2013, 10:07 AM   #32
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First off, using a tb kit as a prelude to a pi adapter makes no sense. Just do the pi in the first place. Obviously, more fuel is better if you can control the amount going into EACH cylinder. If someone could bring a kit to market that consisted of 1 injector for each cylinder and a PROPER way to control it, I would buy it.

Now, back to you being an ass hole and yelling at those who disagree with your idea on a public forum. This is a forum, where anyone can post their ideas, and their opinions on others ideas. If you don't like my opinion of your idea, good for you. I don't like your idea. See how that works? Also, without a dog in the race, why are you so up for a very temporary fueling band aid, and a poor one at that?

Yes, I saw that amazing Aston making sooooo much power...but let me tell ya something. You can make a car run off carb cleaner, but that doesn't make it a good idea.

Any who. Go ahead and post your next nasty reply. I bet people will jump all over the idea presented by a guy who acts like an ass hole and can't take criticism/constructive criticism.
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      06-16-2013, 10:45 AM   #33
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Actually TB injection would be a good and simple alternative after further though. You would not need to piggyback, but could inject based on tapping throttle and boost signals. To get more complicated, if you can vary DC, run it off boost, throttle, and rpm. The hardware would be very easy (i think) teeing off LP side.
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      06-19-2013, 03:12 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pwr hungry View Post
First off, using a tb kit as a prelude to a pi adapter makes no sense. Just do the pi in the first place. Obviously, more fuel is better if you can control the amount going into EACH cylinder. If someone could bring a kit to market that consisted of 1 injector for each cylinder and a PROPER way to control it, I would buy it.

Now, back to you being an ass hole and yelling at those who disagree with your idea on a public forum. This is a forum, where anyone can post their ideas, and their opinions on others ideas. If you don't like my opinion of your idea, good for you. I don't like your idea. See how that works? Also, without a dog in the race, why are you so up for a very temporary fueling band aid, and a poor one at that?

Yes, I saw that amazing Aston making sooooo much power...but let me tell ya something. You can make a car run off carb cleaner, but that doesn't make it a good idea.

Any who. Go ahead and post your next nasty reply. I bet people will jump all over the idea presented by a guy who acts like an ass hole and can't take criticism/constructive criticism.
Great informative post, really keep them coming.

PI will only cost 5x as much if not more and be more complicated with more room for issues/failures.
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      06-19-2013, 08:42 PM   #35
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"Here is a question, do you guys hope it could work well? If not, then your hoping it wont. Lets see what it can do first. Not beat it down."

I'm hoping it will work well, but with most new products on this platform it will need some refinement before it's a good upgrade. This has the potential to be a great upgrade. I hope you're not discouraged by my posts, if anything I'm trying to point out the shortcomings of your system and the strengths of the competition so you can address them. If this platform is going to reach even higher HP levels it's going to need more reliable, consistent fueling and it needs to be a system that keeps the DME happy. I think we've all seen how much of a fickle bitch the DME can be when mods don't work right.
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      06-20-2013, 02:01 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pwr hungry View Post
First off, using a tb kit as a prelude to a pi adapter makes no sense. Just do the pi in the first place. Obviously, more fuel is better if you can control the amount going into EACH cylinder. If someone could bring a kit to market that consisted of 1 injector for each cylinder and a PROPER way to control it, I would buy it.

Now, back to you being an ass hole and yelling at those who disagree with your idea on a public forum. This is a forum, where anyone can post their ideas, and their opinions on others ideas. If you don't like my opinion of your idea, good for you. I don't like your idea. See how that works? Also, without a dog in the race, why are you so up for a very temporary fueling band aid, and a poor one at that?

Yes, I saw that amazing Aston making sooooo much power...but let me tell ya something. You can make a car run off carb cleaner, but that doesn't make it a good idea.

Any who. Go ahead and post your next nasty reply. I bet people will jump all over the idea presented by a guy who acts like an ass hole and can't take criticism/constructive criticism.
I read this... And after reading it I don't think you really said shit worth replying to. I will however give you points for participating in my 'community' thread. You are the sore thumb that nobody wants around but you can awkwardly demand to stay in this thread if you really think you need to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshboody View Post
Actually TB injection would be a good and simple alternative after further though. You would not need to piggyback, but could inject based on tapping throttle and boost signals. To get more complicated, if you can vary DC, run it off boost, throttle, and rpm. The hardware would be very easy (i think) teeing off LP side.
Thanks. This is all 'potential' as with anything but I believe in it. Its all in the pudding as they say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Torgus View Post
Great informative post, really keep them coming.

PI will only cost 5x as much if not more and be more complicated with more room for issues/failures.
The injector plate will cost a lot more, which is why the TB spacer is first. Its also a lot more complicated so lets see what the spacer can do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave W. View Post
"Here is a question, do you guys hope it could work well? If not, then your hoping it wont. Lets see what it can do first. Not beat it down."

I'm hoping it will work well, but with most new products on this platform it will need some refinement before it's a good upgrade. This has the potential to be a great upgrade. I hope you're not discouraged by my posts, if anything I'm trying to point out the shortcomings of your system and the strengths of the competition so you can address them. If this platform is going to reach even higher HP levels it's going to need more reliable, consistent fueling and it needs to be a system that keeps the DME happy. I think we've all seen how much of a fickle bitch the DME can be when mods don't work right.
No Dave, I can be a very steamy person which boils over from one person onto the next so don't be offended if I am a bit opinionated and my teeth flash between my words. You've kept a very logical stance on the thread and are in the positive criticism aisle by all means.
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      06-20-2013, 09:41 AM   #37
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      07-17-2013, 11:38 AM   #38
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So, did you get a guinea pig yet, or everyone else have no faith in this idea either?
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      07-17-2013, 02:12 PM   #39
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What you guys are discussing has been done on 2JZs for quite some time and is part of my SC300 turbo setup. We put two 550cc supplimental fuel injectors in the pipe between the front of the throttle body and the output of the intercooler. An inexpensive Haltech fuel controller adds fuel based on boost level. It is mapped to add x amount of fuel for x psi of boost. We tapped the main fuel line with a T. The system is simple and effective and adds enough fuel for the SC300 to go from around 350whp to 550whp. The system also keeps the throttle body and valvetrain clean, which would be a big bonus for the N54 and its carbon building tendancies. On the N54 with two wideband 02 sensors controlling banks of three, my only concern would be any imbalance in the induction system. Closed loop fueling should be able to keep A/F ratios intact, IMHO.

--Scott Hureau
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      07-17-2013, 07:30 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pwr hungry View Post
So, did you get a guinea pig yet, or everyone else have no faith in this idea either?
There is something wrong with your brain. Was bumping this post on your list of things to do? lol.
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      07-17-2013, 09:08 PM   #41
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There is something wrong with your brain. Was bumping this post on your list of things to do? lol.
I just like seeing you lose your shit. It's comical to say the least.
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      07-18-2013, 09:01 AM   #42
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Lot's of jimmies getting rustled in here...

Either way, I hope something good comes our way in terms of fueling soon. Personally, I agree that methanol is great for lowering IAT's, increasing octane, or pushing RB's/VTT2's that last little bit however, I don't really see it as being a viable 'supplementary fuel system'. Sure, maybe supplemental port injection shares a common theme with methanol kits, but I think they're best suited to achieve different goals.
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      07-18-2013, 09:05 AM   #43
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So, did you get a guinea pig yet, or everyone else have no faith in this idea either?
Just stfu already. Your comments are useless. Go troll in another thread.
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      07-18-2013, 11:33 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scotthureau View Post
What you guys are discussing has been done on 2JZs for quite some time and is part of my SC300 turbo setup. We put two 550cc supplimental fuel injectors in the pipe between the front of the throttle body and the output of the intercooler. An inexpensive Haltech fuel controller adds fuel based on boost level. It is mapped to add x amount of fuel for x psi of boost. We tapped the main fuel line with a T. The system is simple and effective and adds enough fuel for the SC300 to go from around 350whp to 550whp. The system also keeps the throttle body and valvetrain clean, which would be a big bonus for the N54 and its carbon building tendancies. On the N54 with two wideband 02 sensors controlling banks of three, my only concern would be any imbalance in the induction system. Closed loop fueling should be able to keep A/F ratios intact, IMHO.

--Scott Hureau
07 335xi 6MT JB4
92 Lexus SC300 turbo
I 100% agree with your post. Which is why I think it should be tried.
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