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      03-20-2013, 05:07 PM   #1
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10 Years Later...Still no WMDs

10 years ago yesterday the United States invaded the country of Iraq. We have yet to find the Weapons of Mass Destruction that were our reason for invading. We have yet to find any link between the regime of Saddam Hussein and Al Qaeda or Osama Bin Laden. In fact it looks like al we have to show for our latest war in Iraq is a $3 Trillion bill, 4347 dead US military personnel since "Mission Accomplished", and an Iraq that is now aligned with Iran. So what exactly was the end game supposed to be oh great Bush and Cheney?

At the time we invaded, I distinctly remember that if you were against the war, you were against the US. If anyone dared to question the policies of the Bush administration at that time, they were met with stiff public outcry. Anyone recall how fast the Dixie Chicks dropped from the face of the earth?

10 years later, thousands of people dead, and trillions wasted on a lie.

I am still against the war we waged in Iraq, and will always be ashamed that we invaded another country with information that was knowingly false.
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      03-20-2013, 06:15 PM   #2
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Just curious, so do you think the world overall would be in a better place today if Saddam were still in power today then?

Nobody can know for sure, but it seems reasonable to assume that, at best, news articles for the last 10 years would be filled with a chronicle of the continuation of the practices of his brutal dictatorship (genocide, etc). At worst, one can only imagine what sort of safe haven for Al Queda or whomever might have evolved during that decade, even though we now know it was not YET materially present at the time of invasion.

One of the reasons the "lie" was bought into, hook line and sinker, (by other countries as well who have their own independant intelligence) was because it was so plausible. Just because it had not yet come to full fruition by 2003 does not mean that, if left unchecked, there was not a damn good chance it would have manifested itself in some form or another by today.


If there's anything left of this rock 50 years from now, I'd bet people will be referencing these events as unheeded warnings when talking about Iran and what happened when it exercised it's nuclear capability. Or hopefully not, the world wont foolishly wait until they inevitably prove everyone's worst suspicions true.
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      03-20-2013, 06:36 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by MiddleAgedAl View Post
Just curious, so do you think the world overall would be in a better place today if Saddam were still in power today then?

Nobody can know for sure, but it seems reasonable to assume that, at best, news articles for the last 10 years would be filled with a chronicle of the continuation of the practices of his brutal dictatorship (genocide, etc). At worst, one can only imagine what sort of safe haven for Al Queda or whomever might have evolved during that decade, even though we now know it was not YET materially present at the time of invasion.

One of the reasons the "lie" was bought into, hook line and sinker, (by other countries as well who have their own independant intelligence) was because it was so plausible. Just because it had not yet come to full fruition by 2003 does not mean that, if left unchecked, there was not a damn good chance it would have manifested itself in some form or another by today.


If there's anything left of this rock 50 years from now, I'd bet people will be referencing these events as unheeded warnings when talking about Iran and what happened when it exercised it's nuclear capability. Or hopefully not, the world wont foolishly wait until they inevitably prove everyone's worst suspicions true.
And IF a frog had wings it wouldn't bump its ass when it hopped. Hypotheticals are no way to lead a country to war.

edit: and to add, a good majority of the right leaning folks in this forum loathe any kind of gov't spending. Many many threads have accused the current president of spending too much $$. Isn't $3 trillion a large amount of spending? Yet you guys aren't bemoaning that outlay of cash or human life.
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      03-20-2013, 07:04 PM   #4
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Years of intelligence gathering that is apparently compelling enough for Multiple independant countries to take action (ie: not just the twisted speculation of the evil Bush and Cheney) is not the same as indiscriminate hypotheticals.

Yes the cost in $$ and lives was high. The total bill as of today if nothing had been done could have been much higher.

As of 1938, Hitler hadnt invaded any countries yet either, yet there was ample intelligence on him and his regime, suggesting the only realistic end to that was very bad. We all saw the cost of initial appeasement. I wonder how much lower the total WW2 casualty count would have been if steps were taken to pre-emptively contain that fire, instead of waiting until it exploded into the horrific inferno we all know about now. I still stand by my above statements on Iran, too.


I just think that to say, theres "still no WMDs" is very misleading. Of course there isn't, because of the invasion. If there had never been invasion, and an inspection today proved there was still nothing, then (and only then), would you have a point.

Your characterization is like saying, "here we are, coming up on 5 years after Christina Applegate had a double mastectomy, and there's still no sign of breast cancer. My what a fool she was to electively have that second breast pre-emptively removed when there's still no sign of breast cancer in her today."
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      03-20-2013, 07:08 PM   #5
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You still didnt answer my question:

Do you think this planet would be better off today if Saddam were still in power, continuing to do his thing?
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      03-20-2013, 08:10 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xbook View Post
10 years ago yesterday the United States invaded the country of Iraq. We have yet to find the Weapons of Mass Destruction that were our reason for invading. We have yet to find any link between the regime of Saddam Hussein and Al Qaeda or Osama Bin Laden. In fact it looks like al we have to show for our latest war in Iraq is a $3 Trillion bill, 4347 dead US military personnel since "Mission Accomplished", and an Iraq that is now aligned with Iran. So what exactly was the end game supposed to be oh great Bush and Cheney?

At the time we invaded, I distinctly remember that if you were against the war, you were against the US. If anyone dared to question the policies of the Bush administration at that time, they were met with stiff public outcry. Anyone recall how fast the Dixie Chicks dropped from the face of the earth?

10 years later, thousands of people dead, and trillions wasted on a lie.

I am still against the war we waged in Iraq, and will always be ashamed that we invaded another country with information that was knowingly false.
Your shame is duly noted.....and discounted.
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      03-20-2013, 08:26 PM   #7
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Hindsight is 20/20. From what I remember, vast majority of people were in favor of invading Iraq at the time based on information presented and the state of things in the Middle East. Many were in favor of acting preemptively having recently suffered through 9/11 and facing a credible threat from a known trouble maker.

Obviously the whole operation did not go as planned and its easy to criticize the move years later. Who knows how different things would be if we never went into Iraq. Maybe nothing would have happened and all the lives lost and money spent could have been avoided. Or maybe saddam would have acquired wmds and used them on the US or one of our allies.
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      03-20-2013, 08:44 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by OldArmy View Post
Your shame is duly noted.....and discounted.
Not just my shame, it's the shame of a nation.

As an ex-soldier yourself, how about you read this letter from a fellow soldier:

Dying Veteran's Letter to Bush and Cheney

Feel free to discount him as well if you feel the need.
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      03-20-2013, 08:48 PM   #9
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No nation in its right mind would attack the United States, what does it have to gain when all it takes is one carrier strike group to level their infrastructure? The war was waged on a lie and served to enrich Halliburton and other war profiteers. No matter how you slice it, OIF was wrong and turned Afghanistan into a forgotten conflict. People were suckered by hinting that Iraq was involved in 9/11 by simply stating that Iraq was in the same geographic region. Only revisionists like the fools at Fox News would call it the greatest military action of the last decade. "But he's killing his own people!" Yeah, well so is North Korea and they actually have the kind of weapons Iraq didn't have.
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      03-20-2013, 08:52 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MiddleAgedAl View Post

As of 1938, Hitler hadnt invaded any countries yet either, yet there was ample intelligence on him and his regime, suggesting the only realistic end to that was very bad. We all saw the cost of initial appeasement. I wonder how much lower the total WW2 casualty count would have been if steps were taken to pre-emptively contain that fire, instead of waiting until it exploded into the horrific inferno we all know about now. I still stand by my above statements on Iran, too.
World War II was the deadliest military conflict in history. Over 60 million people were killed, which was over 2.5% of the world population.

The Holocaust lead to the genocide of approximately six million European Jews during World War II. 5.7 million (78%) of the 7.3 million Jews in German occupied Europe were Holocaust victims. Other estimates for Holocaust deaths range between 4.9 to 6.0 million Jews.

Total Soviet losses in the postwar 1946–91 boundaries were 26.6 million (13.5% of the total population of 196.7 million).

And the list goes on.

Most of mankind tries to learn from their mistakes of their fathers. This is just a parlial result of WWII that had we acted early would most likely not have happened.

Iran, N Korea do we wait? Or do we act? Your choice or your fathers. Remember "Peace in our time"
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      03-20-2013, 09:18 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xbook View Post
Not just my shame, it's the shame of a nation.

As an ex-soldier yourself, how about you read this letter from a fellow soldier:

Dying Veteran's Letter to Bush and Cheney

Feel free to discount him as well if you feel the need.
I'm writing this letter on behalf of xbook, and for all the liberals who have been transformed by by there awaking to an age of self discipline, responsibility and accountability; the age of conservatism.

It's interesting how a single person with the right words and story can effectively lead you to believe that all solders and citizens alike have this persons same view on the issue.

I'm sure some how you'll turn what i said above into me hating wounded veterans or something like that which is far from the truth.
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      03-20-2013, 10:23 PM   #12
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Hussein was an asshole along wtih many other assholes who are now dead - good
Leaving Iraq - questionable as we gained very little overall and paid a big toll
WMD - none
Resources of Mass Wealth - Lots but we didnt really get any so - bad

what other good stuff happened there?
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      03-20-2013, 10:44 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Mss396 View Post
World War II was the deadliest military conflict in history. Over 60 million people were killed, which was over 2.5% of the world population.

The Holocaust lead to the genocide of approximately six million European Jews during World War II. 5.7 million (78%) of the 7.3 million Jews in German occupied Europe were Holocaust victims. Other estimates for Holocaust deaths range between 4.9 to 6.0 million Jews.

Total Soviet losses in the postwar 1946–91 boundaries were 26.6 million (13.5% of the total population of 196.7 million).

And the list goes on.

Most of mankind tries to learn from their mistakes of their fathers. This is just a parlial result of WWII that had we acted early would most likely not have happened.

Iran, N Korea do we wait? Or do we act? Your choice or your fathers. Remember "Peace in our time"

Acting early based on factual, reliable evidence and information is one thing. Acting early based on deception and lies is something else entirely.












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      03-21-2013, 12:19 AM   #14
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Acting early based on factual, reliable evidence and information is one thing. Acting early based on deception and lies is something else entirely.













Don't do it! Their favorite warlords were under a godless, liberal Jedi Mind Meld that made those words come out!!
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      03-21-2013, 04:20 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xbook View Post
Not just my shame, it's the shame of a nation.

As an ex-soldier yourself, how about you read this letter from a fellow soldier:

Dying Veteran's Letter to Bush and Cheney

Feel free to discount him as well if you feel the need.
Way ahead of you.I don't begrudge anyone their opinion. This young man has had a very heavy lift and is dealing with it the way that seems best to him. Being a soldier and wounded in service to your country is near to being the ultimate sacrifice. But it doesn't make him automatically right or wise. I do thank him for his service.
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      03-21-2013, 07:56 AM   #16
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Way ahead of you.I don't begrudge anyone their opinion. This young man has had a very heavy lift and is dealing with it the way that seems best to him. Being a soldier and wounded in service to your country is near to being the ultimate sacrifice. But it doesn't make him automatically right or wise. I do thank him for his service.
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Working with many wounded vets (disclaimer: most not combat wounded), I can attest to this. I truly appreciate what they have done and given up, but that doesn't mean they are always correct, although they are fully entitled to their opinions.

Remember, they are human as well...
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      03-21-2013, 10:16 AM   #17
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Working with many wounded vets (disclaimer: most not combat wounded), I can attest to this. I truly appreciate what they have done and given up, but that doesn't mean they are always correct, although they are fully entitled to their opinions.

Remember, they are human as well...
+1.

Paid political announcement--while there are many good charities out there, I can personally vouch for both the Wounded Warrior Project and Fisher House. Those who want to do something should consider contributing/joining.

End of public announcement--back to poking each other.
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      03-21-2013, 10:16 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Eagle1oh7 View Post
No nation in its right mind would attack the United States, what does it have to gain when all it takes is one carrier strike group to level their infrastructure? The war was waged on a lie and served to enrich Halliburton and other war profiteers. No matter how you slice it, OIF was wrong and turned Afghanistan into a forgotten conflict. People were suckered by hinting that Iraq was involved in 9/11 by simply stating that Iraq was in the same geographic region. Only revisionists like the fools at Fox News would call it the greatest military action of the last decade. "But he's killing his own people!" Yeah, well so is North Korea and they actually have the kind of weapons Iraq didn't have.
Perfect post!
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      03-21-2013, 10:48 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Eagle1oh7 View Post
No nation in its right mind would attack the United States, what does it have to gain when all it takes is one carrier strike group to level their infrastructure? The war was waged on a lie and served to enrich Halliburton and other war profiteers. No matter how you slice it, OIF was wrong and turned Afghanistan into a forgotten conflict. People were suckered by hinting that Iraq was involved in 9/11 by simply stating that Iraq was in the same geographic region. Only revisionists like the fools at Fox News would call it the greatest military action of the last decade. "But he's killing his own people!" Yeah, well so is North Korea and they actually have the kind of weapons Iraq didn't have.
Quote:
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Perfect post!
This just in.......





Maybe not a nation, but don't be so naive to think that certain nations didn't and won't again assist motivated groups in their planned attacks on the US.
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      03-21-2013, 11:19 AM   #20
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This just in.......





Maybe not a nation, but don't be so naive to think that certain nations didn't and won't again assist motivated groups in their planned attacks on the US.
So what about Saudi Arabia? That's where all of those hijackers came from with funding by one of the princes there. So, I guess you can say they did tell the "truth" about where the attacks "came" from. Sadam would not back an Islamic terror cell since his government was secular, it's all a bunch of useless conjecture to say/think he would. But, hey, nothing's wrong with a little 3 trillion dollar, 100k+ death toll white lie.
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      03-21-2013, 11:26 AM   #21
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For the GOP Rule 0 is bring up facts of the past.
Nothing pissess off GOPers more than facts.
And pointing out basic facts of...well lack of facts and costo f $1Billion per day...causes them great mental pain.

Baby Bush was their Jesus. His father was tehir god...he was the boy they thought woudl change the world....what they forgot as that he was a trust fund baby dry drunk who was more interested in proving to that he had a bigger cock than the old man.

And well, yeah it's very tru, at the time before the war if you even questioned why we were arming up to do something very stupid you were called all kinds of names by GOPers...because in effect you were questioning their baby jesus.

But GOPers...stop...put down your drink stop watching faux news.
Here are the facts.
1) NO WMD's!
2) SADDAM was no better or worse than any other dictator.
3) We lost 4k good men and women.
4) Well over 40k came home hurt for life.
5) The war cost the US $1billion per day.

With these basic facts that we knew then as well as we know now...get over it..your boy your lord and savior jesus h bush was a fucktard. And now that he is at his ranch playign with his dogs...you and I have to pay for this war.
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      03-21-2013, 11:48 AM   #22
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For the GOP Rule 0 is bring up facts of the past.
Nothing pissess off GOPers more than facts.
And pointing out basic facts of...well lack of facts and costo f $1Billion per day...causes them great mental pain.

Baby Bush was their Jesus. His father was tehir god...he was the boy they thought woudl change the world....what they forgot as that he was a trust fund baby dry drunk who was more interested in proving to that he had a bigger cock than the old man.

And well, yeah it's very tru, at the time before the war if you even questioned why we were arming up to do something very stupid you were called all kinds of names by GOPers...because in effect you were questioning their baby jesus.

But GOPers...stop...put down your drink stop watching faux news.
Here are the facts.
1) NO WMD's!
2) SADDAM was no better or worse than any other dictator.
3) We lost 4k good men and women.
4) Well over 40k came home hurt for life.
5) The war cost the US $1billion per day.

With these basic facts that we knew then as well as we know now...get over it..your boy your lord and savior jesus h bush was a fucktard. And now that he is at his ranch playign with his dogs...you and I have to pay for this war.
This just in! Another perfect post!
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