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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Vishnu ST and Vargas TT BBQ Shootout



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      03-30-2013, 10:25 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
According to the tuner, they ran 24-25psi on 91oct for that disclosed dyno run. From my experience, EGTs get uncomfortably hot when tuning for more than 20-21psi (on suitably sized turbos) on 91oct. On 93, maybe 21-22psi. Running sufficient ignition advance at 24-25psi requires something along the lines of race gas (98 MON and up). Again, you can run higher boost on lower octane but things get ugly in the real world in such scenarios.
Shouldn't the higher combustion temps also create a knock limited best torque scenario?
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      03-30-2013, 10:27 PM   #46
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Again, I'm a potential customer to both kits, and having the owner(s) come on here to argue bullshit unproven points really turns me off. Am I the only adult here? Sometimes, children, saying less is saying more. You want my $10k? Don't come on forums belittling your competition (without proof of EGt your argument is garbage). I care about your product not about what you think about the competitors product. You want to have a BBQ and dyno competition that's fine, but speculation regarding your competitions kit is just ignorant.

Be professional people... You're asking for thousands of dollars here. *sigh*
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      03-30-2013, 10:32 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Wescuddles View Post
Again, I'm a potential customer to both kits, and having the owner(s) come on here to argue bullshit unproven points really turns me off. Am I the only adult here? Sometimes, children, saying less is saying more. You want my $10k? Don't come on forums belittling your competition (without proof of EGt your argument is garbage). I care about your product not about what you think about the competitors product. You want to have a BBQ and dyno competition that's fine, but speculation regarding your competitions kit is just ignorant.

Be professional people... You're asking for thousands of dollars here. *sigh*
Part of being a profession is sometimes speaking up when there is a lack of understanding. Similarly, someone's a lack of understand makes it difficult for some folks to recognize this. This whole moral play is old and usually stems from people unable or unwilling up to follow the technical aspects of a thread. If this applies to anyone in particular, perhaps the best approach would be for them to ignore this thread rather than trying to contribute to it. Just a thought.
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      03-30-2013, 10:38 PM   #48
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Do you have EGT sensors in your car and can you post any actual data to back up what you are claiming?

I realize Vargas will now be your main competition. They sold 10 kits in 5 days. There aren't even ten active members on this forum running your ST kit.

Former Boosted IS has been MIA for months

Sikh is banned....again

Cupertinosteve posts here and there- congrats to him for finally getting some great 60-130 times by the way. Thank god for the alpina flash

Captin Insano apparently hit his head and is finally back around to be posting

Tmo or whatever his name is has been MIA after he fixed the issue with his flywheel that you should have found out about first had you done the proper R&D before releasing the kit to the general public. I say this because people went out and had new clutch's installed in preparation for the ST only to find out later they now need an new flywheel for their car to run correctly and now have to pay for labor twice to drop the tranny.

Creamz is pretty much MIA and was going to sell his car after only a few months with the kit

Skinrock sold his car and still can't sell his kit after 4+ months. Why you didn't just give him a refund and charge him a restocking fee is beyond me

Georgiatech has been MIA for the last few months after some dismal runs at the track

I guess the rest of your ST owners are out to busy enjoying their cars though.
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      03-30-2013, 10:49 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wescuddles View Post
Again, I'm a potential customer to both kits, and having the owner(s) come on here to argue bullshit unproven points really turns me off. Am I the only adult here? Sometimes, children, saying less is saying more. You want my $10k? Don't come on forums belittling your competition (without proof of EGt your argument is garbage). I care about your product not about what you think about the competitors product. You want to have a BBQ and dyno competition that's fine, but speculation regarding your competitions kit is just ignorant.

Be professional people... You're asking for thousands of dollars here. *sigh*
Part of being a profession is sometimes speaking up when there is a lack of understanding. Similarly, someone's a lack of understand makes it difficult for some folks to recognize this. This whole moral play is old and usually stems from people unable or unwilling up to follow the technical aspects of a thread. If this applies to anyone in particular, perhaps the best approach would be for them to ignore this thread rather than trying to contribute to it. Just a thought.
It's not sometimes shiv, it's every thread that has "vargas" in the header. It gets pretty annoying, and from a business standpoint is unprofessional. You make speculation on some moot point in every one of the threads mentioning Tony's product. You're product is called out here for a run against VTT's stage 3, not for a personal opinion on his exhaust temps or what octane gas he was running or what tony had for breakfast.
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      03-30-2013, 10:58 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by 805beemer View Post
Do you have EGT sensors in your car and can you post any actual data to back up what you are claiming?

I realize Vargas will now be your main competition. They sold 10 kits in 5 days. There aren't even ten active members on this forum running your ST kit.

Former Boosted IS has been MIA for months

Sikh is banned....again

Cupertinosteve posts here and there- congrats to him for finally getting some great 60-130 times by the way. Thank god for the alpina flash

Captin Insano apparently hit his head and is finally back around to be posting

Tmo or whatever his name is has been MIA after he fixed the issue with his flywheel that you should have found out about first had you done the proper R&D before releasing the kit to the general public. I say this because people went out and had new clutch's installed in preparation for the ST only to find out later they now need an new flywheel for their car to run correctly and now have to pay for labor twice to drop the tranny.

Creamz is pretty much MIA and was going to sell his car after only a few months with the kit

Skinrock sold his car and still can't sell his kit after 4+ months. Why you didn't just give him a refund and charge him a restocking fee is beyond me

Georgiatech has been MIA for the last few months after some dismal runs at the track

I guess the rest of your ST owners are out to busy enjoying their cars though.
You missed idspeedskater and Melissa who probably won't post here.

I got hit by a car. And I don't post because of threads like this.

I'll be at Shift Sector again next week.

Quoting myself:

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainInsano View Post
8) People who post a lot are more likely trying to piss you off than learn about cars
9) There are lots of reasonable people who watch the forums, and all the posts you see are from the vocal majority..
Please try not to attack specific customers to troll a tuner/product.
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      03-30-2013, 11:04 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Wescuddles View Post
It's not sometimes shiv, it's every thread that has "vargas" in the header. It gets pretty annoying, and from a business standpoint is unprofessional. You make speculation on some moot point in every one of the threads mentioning Tony's product. You're product is called out here for a run against VTT's stage 3, not for a personal opinion on his exhaust temps or what octane gas he was running or what tony had for breakfast.
Please don't pretend for a moment to be unbiased. Your post history shoots that notion out of the water. You may feel that my comments are "unprofessional" for whatever reason you believe to be valid. That's fine. Some will agree with you while others won't. You certainly make a habit of holding me to standards you hold no one else to. And our company name was also mentioned in the subject of this thread. So I assumed I was invited/expected to participate thank you very much.

That said, I don't believe I have said anything incorrect or untrue in this thread. If you believe otherwise, please point it out. Until then, you calling me "unprofessional" is disingenuous. But like you, I'm entitled to my own opinions.

We can waste our time talking feelings. Or we can discuss tech. It is my experience that those who are unable or unwilling to discuss tech would rather talk about their feelings and encourage others to feel the same way as them. I'm here to discuss tech. If you don't like it, please ignore.

Shiv

Last edited by shiv@vishnu; 03-30-2013 at 11:13 PM.
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      03-30-2013, 11:06 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainInsano View Post
You missed idspeedskater and Melissa who probably won't post here.

I got hit by a car. And I don't post because of threads like this.

I'll be at Shift Sector again next week.

Quoting myself:



Please try not to attack specific customers to troll a tuner/product.
Glad your okay Have fun at shift sector! But my point still stands.
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      03-30-2013, 11:07 PM   #53
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What Shiv is saying in theory makes sense but then again we don't have all the facts/details so at this point, it's hearsay. Once Vargas posts the data, which I'm sure they will eventually, we'll have the data necessary to make educated comparisons.
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      03-30-2013, 11:26 PM   #54
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besides, when/if stage 3's become more powerful or faster than fftec singles, there will be a 6466 getting ready to change things again (inspired by the fftec kit and rocking Vargas head flanges. weird)
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      03-30-2013, 11:29 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wescuddles View Post
It's not sometimes shiv, it's every thread that has "vargas" in the header. It gets pretty annoying, and from a business standpoint is unprofessional. You make speculation on some moot point in every one of the threads mentioning Tony's product. You're product is called out here for a run against VTT's stage 3, not for a personal opinion on his exhaust temps or what octane gas he was running or what tony had for breakfast.
Please don't pretend for a moment to be unbiased. Your post history shoots that notion out of the water. You may feel that my comments are "unprofessional" for whatever reason you believe to be valid. That's fine. Some will agree with you while others won't. You certainly make a habit of holding me to standards you hold no one else to.

That said, I don't believe I have said anything incorrect or untrue in this thread. If you believe otherwise, please point it out. Until then, you calling me "unprofessional" is disingenuous. But like you, I'm entitled to my own opinions.

We can waste our time talking feelings. Or we can discuss tech. It is my experience that those who are unable or unwilling to discuss tech would rather talk about their feelings and encourage others to feel the same way as them. I'm here to discuss tech. If you don't like it, please ignore.

Shiv
So you've went as far back as last year when I congratulated you and your product as I did tony? And I've never said I prefer VTT over your product once. I don't see how my opinion is biased at all. My opinion that Tony acts more professional than you is obvious. In fact it was his idea to have the bbq and you started the bullshit spool versus thread correct? I think in these threads he's factual and respectful, and judging by your response to me that further solidifies my point. You're willing to lose $10k because of pride. Look at guys like tiago, who got my business because of a professional/respectful attitude (especially on a public forum). You could take a lesson from him on how to publicly handle yourself professionally.

As for what you said being true or not, I stated in my precious post it was all speculation without hard evidence. That was pretty clear.

I honestly would much rather you spoke factual tech instead of speculating where you think his power should be or what octane he's running or what his EGT's are. It's all speculation. It's annoying.

If anything you've made me biased when comparing your product and Tony's by how you handle yourself here. And with $10,000 ready to throw at turbos this year you've helped me make my decision (surprise it's not with you). I've given you chances in threads and you haven't responded until now. Good job.

That soap box lost you at least 1 sale this thread *thumbs up* !!
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      03-30-2013, 11:29 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smi1gj View Post
besides, when/if stage 3's become more powerful or faster than fftec singles, there will be a 6466 getting ready to change things again (inspired by the fftec kit and rocking Vargas head flanges. weird)
I look forward to it! Glad your letting Terry get a crack at tuning it. Will be an awesome car I'm sure!
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      03-30-2013, 11:40 PM   #57
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Gone are the days where people beef about being a 'better/quicker driver.'

Who gives a fuck about numbers, let's just have a friendly BBQ and tech session so all the people who are "WTF"ing about tuning details can get a better understanding. Perhaps a track day?!?!?! hehe.
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      03-30-2013, 11:41 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
Part of being a profession is sometimes speaking up when there is a lack of understanding. Similarly, someone's a lack of understand makes it difficult for some folks to recognize this. This whole moral play is old and usually stems from people unable or unwilling up to follow the technical aspects of a thread. If this applies to anyone in particular, perhaps the best approach would be for them to ignore this thread rather than trying to contribute to it. Just a thought.
Well put.

Before Vargas every mention of RB Turbo's yielded the same result. Its embarrassing to say the least.
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      03-30-2013, 11:45 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 805beemer
Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
It's very convenient to suggest that my offending posts have been deleted. Or it could just be that I don't do what you are accusing me of. Or you could just stick to what is going on here and now and stay on topic. That said, this discussion has now become less of a tech discussion and more of something else. And since it's Saturday night, I bid you all goodnight

So you admit it, lol!

Okay lets get back on topic:

Quote:
Originally Posted by 805beemer View Post
Do you have EGT sensors in your car and can you post any actual data to back up what you are claiming?
If pushing high boost on low timing on 91 octane causes high EGT's on other platforms, can we not apply that knowledge to this one?
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      03-30-2013, 11:55 PM   #60
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If pushing high boost on low timing on 91 octane causes high EGT's on other platforms, can we not apply that knowledge to this one?
You could??? But it would be nice to see some hard evidence. If Shiv posted high egt's in his early tuning days of the ST kit running high boost low advance I'll be the first to admit PTF's tuning strategy was not a wise choice. Either way it doesn't matter to me, who honestly will be running stage 3's on 91 pump anyway? Anyone with that kind of money in their car will be running 93/meth/e85 or a combination of them.
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      03-30-2013, 11:57 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turb0mike
Gone are the days where people beef about being a 'better/quicker driver.'

Who gives a fuck about numbers, let's just have a friendly BBQ and tech session so all the people who are "WTF"ing about tuning details can get a better understanding. Perhaps a track day?!?!?! hehe.
You'd think shiv would like to do that instead of speculating about Tony's product. As a customer I'd hope he would. Time will tell I suppose. Maybe he will bring his soap box to the BBQ? Heh
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      03-30-2013, 11:57 PM   #62
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmacc View Post
If pushing high boost on low timing on 91 octane causes high EGT's on other platforms, can we not apply that knowledge to this one?
You could??? But it would be nice to see some hard evidence. If Shiv did I'll be the first to admit PTF's tuning strategy was not a wise choice. Either way it doesn't matter to me, who honestly will be running stage 3's on 91 pump anyway? Anyone with that kind of money in their car will be running 93/meth/e85 or a combination of them.
Exactly.
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      03-30-2013, 11:57 PM   #63
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I know it's raining all over the Bay Area so we can't go play with our cars, but let's look forward to whatever kind of BBQ can come of this whole thing. I wish you all the best at Shift Sector next weekend while I stand around at an outdoor wedding in FL in a tux with a rainbow paisley cummerbund.
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      03-31-2013, 12:10 AM   #64
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      03-31-2013, 12:45 AM   #65
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Shouldn't the higher combustion temps also create a knock limited best torque scenario?
Yes. Did you notice the torque curve has a weird dip in the midrange? It looks like they hit the limit.
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      03-31-2013, 01:06 AM   #66
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when did he knock Vargas? saying 24-25psi with low timing causes high egts and especially isn't favorable isn't a "knock" it's common knowledge. Vargas is showing good signs and coming along nicely but it's not going to be an instant ST killer. I'm as neutral as they come, but I gotta call it, you guys are on a mission to make shiv out to be a bad guy. why? what's the point.
Try not to knock Vargas.
Try not to knock, Vargas.
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