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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Vishnu ST and Vargas TT BBQ Shootout



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      03-31-2013, 01:45 PM   #89
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The reasons are typically that they are 1) not noticed or 2) its just not worth the time. It becomes more and more easy to just avoid forum drama unless you see obvious competitive deception, attacks, or the like that needs to be addressed. Even that is getting harder and harder to address because it seems most have their mind made up before even reading or understanding anything. They automatically discard everything as fear mongering sales tactics. The fact is that much of us have so much to learn, and those willing to enlighten us are chastised and counter attacked for sharing anything.

It is also unbelievable how such a tidbit of data by one or a few people can cause such creativity in widespread incorrect understandings, whereas indepth technical and/or factual bodies of valuable information can be discarded as tactics or sales pitches; typically by those who live and die by the tidbits of others.

I've read through this thread, and quite frankly I agree with all technical posts that Shiv has made. And I think most any seasoned tuner knows this as well. You simply can not just retard timing through the floor and expect no negative impacts all for the sake of a great final pump gas figure. Not going to go deeper as there have been several posts above clearing much of that up.

BUT at this point I do not think it is known how the timing was really dialed in for the runs right? Perhaps actually having that data could actually determine how far off the path the tune was if even at all? Where are the logs, there should be no exceptions to them being provided if all is kosher anyway...

In the next couple weeks hopefully a couple of these cars can go head to head in a fair-as-possible situation to make some true comparisons.

All in all, both the ST and TT look to be great options and both certainly will have pros and cons. Time will have to tell which Pros and which Cons are the most valuable to the consumer.

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Originally Posted by shaginwagon13 View Post
Here is my rant:

Do you notice how Vargas or RB haven't poked their heads in this thread?
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      03-31-2013, 01:50 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by The Ghost View Post
Exactly thats my point. Who cares. Vargas finally came out with the stage 3 and was the first one to do it. Instead of giving him a little bit of time to pride himself on his work and for people to read about it and see the initial numbers, Shiv came storming in there and turned it into a back and forth argument. And then he wants proof and screenshots? Gimme a break.
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      03-31-2013, 01:53 PM   #91
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It has to be easy to settle this topic with no real effort. Just post the actual EGT logged during the test. No muss, no fuss, no drama, everybody wins.
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      03-31-2013, 01:56 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shaginwagon13 View Post
Exactly thats my point. Who cares. Vargas finally came out with the stage 3 and was the first one to do it. Instead of giving him a little bit of time to pride himself on his work and for people to read about it and see the initial numbers, Shiv came storming in there and turned it into a back and forth argument. And then he wants proof and screenshots? Gimme a break.
Here is the thread I believe you are referring to. It got closed, not deleted. Please let me know where I am attacking Vargas. Pretty please?

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=816426

I started that thread because Vargas posted incorrect information. And there is undeniable proof of it in that thread if you took the time to read it. Post #88 sums it up nicely.
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      03-31-2013, 01:57 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by VR46 View Post
Actually the car was on the dyno from 9:00am till 1:20pm, We did over 20 pulls.
Ive been driving the car all over the bay area since getting it back and it has been running flawlessly. (Took it to Napa Friday, Saturday to Walnut Creek and ran it hard a bunch of times going up and down hwy 24, Today i'm going over to Half Moon Bay)
And still driving with no meth and on our Cali 91 gas.

I just want to say that when Tony asked me about doing this project I wanted to use Shiv as our tuner and Tony even reached out to him and got his cell phone number.
Me and Tony have used Shiv back in the day when I had a turbo Integra and Tony a turbo Passat.
I meet Shiv again recently at his house when he helped me with a missing issue. (Remember Shiv it was the day you brought back your Ferret and we went by your moms house in my car)

I mean I just bought and updated my Procede to a Rev 3 with two step and NLS just before handing my car to Tony.

When Tony told me he was tuning my car with a Cobb I was like "Oh" "OK"
I would have been happy with anyone tuning the car (I just liked Shiv cause he was local to me and I've had a past with him)

But the nice thing about this kit is it can be tuned by whoever you want.
Its just getting that tuner to help you tune it.

My point of this message is daily driving this car has been fine, Is it perfect probably not, But I am turning the car over to Tony Tuesday and the rest should be dialed in soon when the Cobb boys fly in.

I'm hoping to come spectate at the airport event next week (But I think I read all spectator pass were sold)

Happy Easter everyone.
A fellow high HP customer! Thanks for chiming in!

If you want to get in on Sunday I'm allowed a crew of 3 (as is everyone else). Just an offer.

We don't have to hate on each other like the people who won't actually buy any upgrades.

See you around town. I'd love to check out the car.
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      03-31-2013, 02:00 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainInsano View Post
A fellow high HP customer! Thanks for chiming in!

If you want to get in on Sunday I'm allowed a crew of 3 (as is everyone else). Just an offer.

We don't have to hate on each other like the people who won't actually buy any upgrades.

See you around town. I'd love to check out the car.
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      03-31-2013, 02:08 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainInsano View Post
A fellow high HP customer! Thanks for chiming in!

If you want to get in on Sunday I'm allowed a crew of 3 (as is everyone else). Just an offer.

We don't have to hate on each other like the people who won't actually buy any upgrades.

See you around town. I'd love to check out the car.
That is very generous of you.
If I can find someone to watch my kids (wife out of town same weekend) I will definitely take you up on that offer.
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      03-31-2013, 02:12 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
During in-house testing, we have made well over 500whp on a mustang dyno with our single turbo cars on 91oct (no methanol). That's nearly 600whp on a Dynojet. The problem with running that much boost (24+psi) with such little ignition advance (2-6deg) is that exhaust gas temps get too hot for sustained racing conditions. Dyno glory runs are fine but we don't live on a dyno. These are some of the things you learn during the long term testing process because customers will put their car through things which are much more stressful than anything you can replicate on the dyno when trying to make glory numbers (hot lapping for instance). But if you are just after numbers to claim some sort of pump gas record, that's fine. But any experience tuner knows that you are just tuning poorly to impressed the uninformed masses. There is a reason why some beginner tuners go through turbos like rolls of toiler paper while others, with more experience (esp in motorsport) don't.

That said, we are always down for some friendly competition. But let's give the other team so more time to go through the testing/tuning phase. Because a lot will be learned in the process. And it will benefit everyone.



Really? Why? Not trying to be argumentative because everyone is entitled to his opinion. But would like to hear your reasoning.
As I stated in the past I am willing to do a head to head anytime one we get our tuning dialed in. And I am posting this one time and not again in this post. I love that shiv, the king of glory pulls and posting threads with "NEW N54 WORLD RECORD" as the title, is going to sit here and say they made almost 600 WHP on 91 and didn't tell anyone. If you guys want to believe this nonsense that is up to you. But we all know if Shiv did anything of the sort it would have been posted 48 seconds later on the site. Also Shiv, we all know the mustang coversion to a DJ is between 12 and 15% so at your 500 (theoretical) WHP on a mustang would = between 560-575 WHP on a DJ, but you want to say its basically 600 WHP. Stop trying to smoke and mirror people. Again Its simple, we are down to go head to head with you, ANY time for WHP, on ANY fuel once our tuning is done. The end
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      03-31-2013, 02:16 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VR46 View Post
That is very generous of you.
If I can find someone to watch my kids (wife out of town same weekend) I will definitely take you up on that offer.
Bring the kids. Some of us around here are used to baby sitting
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      03-31-2013, 02:20 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vargasturbotech View Post
As I stated in the past I am willing to do a head to head anytime one we get our tuning dialed in. And I am posting this one time and not again in this post. I love that shiv, the king of glory pulls and posting threads with "NEW N54 WORLD RECORD" as the title, is going to sit here and say they made almost 600 WHP on 91 and didn't tell anyone. If you guys want to believe this nonsense that is up to you. But we all know if Shiv did anything of the sort it would have been posted 48 seconds later on the site. Also Shiv, we all know the mustang coversion to a DJ is between 12 and 15% so at your 500 (theoretical) WHP on a mustang would = between 560-575 WHP on a DJ, but you want to say its basically 600 WHP. Stop trying to smoke and mirror people. Again Its simple, we are down to go head to head with you, ANY time for WHP, on ANY fuel once our tuning is done. The end
Mustang/Dynojet equivalence depends on the Mustang's parasitic loss file as well as if it is run in 'simulated inertia' mode or not. Depending on these variables, the difference between the two dynos can range from as low as 8% to as much as 20%. We do plenty of same day comparisons between the in-house MD and the Dynojet at DNR. We encourage you to do the same
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      03-31-2013, 02:22 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
Bring the kids. Some of us around here are used to baby sitting
This must have gotten lost in the soap opera, so here it is again. Just provide some data as a point of reference

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ænema View Post
There's a lot of (semi-sound)theory and assumptions being tossed around.

Shiv, do you you have any EGT sensor data you provide on what the ST kits see? I am not asking for engine theory, i'm talking actual sensor data.

My understanding of the VTT kit is that the next step in the process is EGT data gathering and reporting(hopefully full disclosure... but we'll see.)
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      03-31-2013, 02:23 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by litz4244 View Post
I wish these single turbo cars were on the east coast I would love to run them. It would have been fun in my 335 but I have since sold it and built a z06
IIRC there's a couple kits out in Georgia and Florida?
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      03-31-2013, 02:27 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ænema View Post
This must have gotten lost in the soap opera, so here it is again. Just provide some data as a point of reference
You think he might be ignoring the requests for supporting data?
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      03-31-2013, 02:29 PM   #102
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Pretty sure shiv had external widebands on his pre-ST car. Was any tangible data gathered? Obviously there must have been some sort of revelation to suddenly have concerns regarding EGT.

Did you happen to gather any data on the old rev2 units running a 13.5 AFR floor? That was publicly stated to be adequate and the latest rage at the time. Since your unit could only pull 4degrees and all of your customers cars knocked due to cylinder temperatures, those cars ran some high EGTs for many years, but was fine back then. Any more data shiv?
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      03-31-2013, 02:31 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BEAR-AvHistory View Post
You think he might be ignoring the requests for supporting data?
I lost track, are you asking Tony for EGT data or Shiv?
Last time I checked Shiv includes datalogs to back up every dyno run he's posted. There is no data on the Vargas kits.
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      03-31-2013, 02:31 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
Mustang/Dynojet equivalence depends on the Mustang's parasitic loss file as well as if it is run in 'simulated inertia' mode or not. Depending on these variables, the difference between the two dynos can range from as low as 8% to as much as 20%. We do plenty of same day comparisons between the in-house MD and the Dynojet at DNR. We encourage you to do the same
Keep up the smoke and mirrors Shiv, keep it up. I wrote an entire post and you grabbed the ONE thing could might be able to spin, the dyno difference. Not the fact that you are claiming you broke pump gas records with no meth and never posted them. I already broke my rule of one post. But you have my number, my email, just let me know when you want to get the BBQ and head to head done, and as long as the tuning is finished. We can take it to ANY dyno you wish. With all that said, this is not personal at all, just keep things factual and we are good. Happy Easter man. Thank you for helping Jonah with the stage 2 tune, I appreciate it.

Too everyone else, Happy Easter guys, I hope you don't mind if I stay out of the forum BS for a while. I just don't have the energy to do it over and over. Small update, the car hasn't reported a single issue, not a CEL, not a limp, nothing in 2-3 weeks of DD driving around the bay area, and some very hard driving as well. I will be installing an EGT probe pre turbo before we tune for big power, this in my mind 100% needed. Our in house gauge is a dual boost and EGT and we believe they are both equally important, EGT can tell you so much about what a certain set up is doing. We use EGT probes and gauges from an aircraft gauge company that has an EGT response the blows away anything I have ever seen in an automotive application. When we tested them, our gauge was already coming back down after lifting and the other gauges were still going up. The EGT in my truck can actually swing faster then the boost gauge sometimes, thats how sensitive it is. As far as I am concerned an EGT in a DP is a waste of time, you want the prob as close to the exhaust valve as physically possible. So Shiv please make sure to let us know your EGT probe location when providing EGT numbers.
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Last edited by Tony@vargasturbotech; 03-31-2013 at 02:49 PM.
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      03-31-2013, 02:34 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ænema View Post
This must have gotten lost in the soap opera, so here it is again. Just provide some data as a point of reference
We have seen close to 1700F temps at 25psi/670whp. And that is with methanol and 7-13 deg of advance. With half that advance (no meth, same boost, 570whp), we would probably see close to 2000F by the end of a 4th gear pull. Never had the guts to test it though. Only time we ran that much boost without methanol was on accident (I was overseas and gave the dyno operator wrong user adjustable set-up info). The car made over 500whp (on Mustang Dyno). The lumpier torque curve and flat top end power made it immediately clear that something was wrong. I believe this was on CaptainInsano's car... sorry
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      03-31-2013, 02:34 PM   #106
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      03-31-2013, 02:35 PM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vargasturbotech View Post
Keep up the smoke and mirrors Shiv, keep it up. I wrote an entire post and you grabbed the ONE thing could might be able to spin, the dyno difference. Not the fact that you are claiming you broke pump gas records with no meth and never posted them. I already broke my rule of one post. But you have my number, my email, just let me know when you want to get the BBQ and head to head done, and as long as the tuning is finished. We can take it to ANY dyno you wish. With all that said, this is not personal at all, just keep things factual and we are good. Happy Easter man. Thank you for helping Jonah with the stage 2 tune, I appreciate it.
See my previous post.

And I'll restate: Among tuners, there is no glory in glory/world record pump gas power numbers. They represent tunes that are inherently unstable. And they are almost always done intentionally on shop cars for obvious reasons. Why would we brag about an lumpy power curve when we have results (with meth) that are smoother, more stable and a lot stronger? From the start, we stated that methanol was key to keeping this engine happy/thermally managed at higher boost levels. It's the only way (other than race gas/e85) that you are going to get the engine to run close enough to MBT at the high boost we all want big singles/twins to run at.

From an engineering/tuning standpoint, this is 100% true. We don't play the game of pushing something until it blows just to get a big number. But for us, with this many single turbo customers on the road, it's not worth it to give this message. To this day, I tell everyone of our ST customers keep boost below 20psi on pump gas. Yes, they are leaving power on the table. And yes, they can run more boost if timing is retarded a bunch. But there is a very clear downside to doing so and it's been explained by myself and others. Tony, I've been doing this for 20 years now. I am well beyond the point of trying to stir the waters here. Just saying and doing things that I've been doing for a VERY long time.

Shiv

Last edited by shiv@vishnu; 03-31-2013 at 02:50 PM.
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      03-31-2013, 02:36 PM   #108
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So Shiv, where is the EGT data from your car's single kit? I'd like to see the proof, not theoretical numbers, or numbers simply said by you. During testing, did you have EGT probes in your manifolds? If you did/do I as well as many others would appreciate the data. Many work off hard data, not speculation as I know you and a few others do quite well.

Please don't try and dance around this question, because I am genuinely curious what kind of EGT's your kit produces. Surely is such a refined kit with a year of testing you should have this data.

In addition to this, I would appreciate it if you, or any single turbo customer, could post up their DYNOJET sheets running pure 91 octane with no meth injection. I'm curious to see the numbers such a refined turbo kit puts out under this condition. I don't want to hear a lecture about converting from Mustang etc, I just want to see the numbers if you could please provide. I'm actually tempted on purchasing that used Vishnu single kit that's been out there for months now. But I want to see data before I decide.
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      03-31-2013, 02:38 PM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
We have seen close to 1700F temps at 25psi/670whp. And that is with methanol and 7-13 deg of advance. With half that advance (no meth, same boost, 570whp), we would probably see close to 2000F by the end of a 4th gear pull. Never had the guts to test it though. Only time we ran that much boost without methanol was on accident (I was overseas and gave the dyno operator wrong user adjustable set-up info). The car made over 500whp (on Mustang Dyno). The lumpier torque curve and flat top end power made it immediately clear that something was wrong. I believe this was on CaptainInsano's car... sorry
Haha it still runs like a beast. I run 1700F all day at Laguna anyways
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      03-31-2013, 02:46 PM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E90Company View Post
So Shiv, where is the EGT data from your car's single kit? I'd like to see the proof, not theoretical numbers, or numbers simply said by you. During testing, did you have EGT probes in your manifolds? If you did/do I as well as many others would appreciate the data. Many work off hard data, not speculation as I know you and a few others do quite well.

Please don't try and dance around this question, because I am genuinely curious what kind of EGT's your kit produces. Surely is such a refined kit with a year of testing you should have this data.

In addition to this, I would appreciate it if you, or any single turbo customer, could post up their DYNOJET sheets running pure 91 octane with no meth injection. I'm curious to see the numbers such a refined turbo kit puts out under this condition. I don't want to hear a lecture about converting from Mustang etc, I just want to see the numbers if you could please provide. I'm actually tempted on purchasing that used Vishnu single kit that's been out there for months now. But I want to see data before I decide.
I know you are trying to poke Shiv for a response, but here's a 93oct no meth dyno of FBISs car from the first post in this thread:
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=741694



Have a good one.
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