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      04-03-2013, 11:54 PM   #1
Lifted07Duramax
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Saw aftermarket intake manifold

Saw that HPF had an aftermarket intake manifold thread a few years ago but I dont see anything more on it?
What happened to it? And if they bailed on making one is there one and is it worth the price?
Seems like an install can be done in 2hrs no problem
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      04-04-2013, 12:34 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by Lifted07Duramax View Post
Saw that HPF had an aftermarket intake manifold thread a few years ago but I dont see anything more on it?
What happened to it? And if they bailed on making one is there one and is it worth the price?
Seems like an install can be done in 2hrs no problem
i just saw it up again not too long ago
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      04-04-2013, 12:35 AM   #3
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Haven't heard much out of HPF for a long time... I think VAC also has an intake manifold available. PROefi is also developing an intake manifold for use with their standalone.
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      04-04-2013, 10:29 AM   #4
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hmm you would think that after 6 years of the 335i that there would be one out. Unless they arent restrictive at all then theres got to be a lot of room for gains with a better intake manifold
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      04-04-2013, 10:43 AM   #5
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R&D of a intake manifold is beyond complicated. Flow testing and vibration are extremely complicated. You can't just slap a plenum with runners together and expect gains. The runners have to flow equally and be able to adjust to vibration in the air pattern. BMW has engineered the intake manifold VERY well and more than likely will not be out performed - until you start to port intake valves +1mm than we would likely see development on larger runner intake manifolds + TB's.

Until than, the R&D to out perform the OEM manifold is going to be put on the back burner as more than likely no one will be able to make something better.
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      04-04-2013, 11:28 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cripple View Post
R&D of a intake manifold is beyond complicated. Flow testing and vibration are extremely complicated. You can't just slap a plenum with runners together and expect gains. The runners have to flow equally and be able to adjust to vibration in the air pattern. BMW has engineered the intake manifold VERY well and more than likely will not be out performed - until you start to port intake valves +1mm than we would likely see development on larger runner intake manifolds + TB's.

Until than, the R&D to out perform the OEM manifold is going to be put on the back burner as more than likely no one will be able to make something better.
+1 Good points.

The intake manifold is not a restriction at the stock turbo power levels anyway.

In the scheme of adding the most power I'm sure an intake manifold would eventually be a power adder, but not for the average joe. There are a lot more modifications to do that will net a larger gain for the money.
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      04-04-2013, 11:29 AM   #7
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There will be an intake manifold option coming out very soon.
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      04-04-2013, 11:33 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff@TopGearSolutions View Post
+1 Good points.

The intake manifold is not a restriction at the stock turbo power levels anyway.

In the scheme of adding the most power I'm sure an intake manifold would eventually be a power adder, but not for the average joe. There are a lot more modifications to do that will net a larger gain for the money.
Agreed, I had been under the impression that the intake manifold was pretty far down the list of issues when it comes to making big power on this platform. Fueling and turbo inlet size I’d imagine would both need to be addressed before a better flowing manifold would be of much use, and even then I believe people are beginning to see valve float at monster power numbers. So there are bigger fish to fry
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      04-04-2013, 11:42 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by 135Pats View Post
Agreed, I had been under the impression that the intake manifold was pretty far down the list of issues when it comes to making big power on this platform. Fueling and turbo inlet size I’d imagine would both need to be addressed before a better flowing manifold would be of much use, and even then I believe people are beginning to see valve float at monster power numbers. So there are bigger fish to fry
I agree on the bigger fish to fry.
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      04-04-2013, 12:10 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgiaTech335coupe View Post
There will be an intake manifold option coming out very soon.
I'm sure you don't want to give up details, but I would like to know which market this will be for?

I truthfully looked deep into producing a manifold for my old platform (Audi) but even with people running GTX3076's and Precision 6767's would not out flow the OEM manifold - they really only needed a throttle body upgrade for marginal gains.

Granted this is comparing apples to oranges I can not see the market. Possibly a few single turbo people would run a upgraded manifold it would have to have proven flow testing results to even consider. It would also more than likely have to be made to order as these people would want to have oversize intake valve ports; now tell me how many people have oversized ports here?

These people would also probably consider a 3" or 4" outlet on the turbo with 3-4" intercooler piping. I am not to sure (as I am new to this market) who is producing a piping (other than custom) with the appropriate end tanks. This would probably be the next step before producing a intake manifold; at least if it was my business portfolio. Better bang for your buck increase; 1/10th of the R&D time as well.

Regardless I am entertained I would love to see the results of a intake manifold produced by anyone reputable.

Mmmmm... fish..... Lunch time!
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      04-04-2013, 12:44 PM   #11
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The main reasoning behind an aftermarket mani, at this time at least, is for the big turbo guys that are running out of fuel. There is no HPFP upgrade available yet(VTT is working on either running a beefed up single pump or, if that doesn't work, a twin pump solution.) So the aftermarket intake manifolds all feature port fuel injection on top of the DI system.

Honestly, until a real upgrade is available, it's more practical/cheaper to just drill and tap the stock mani for direct port methanol if fueling is the main concern.
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      04-04-2013, 12:47 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ænema View Post
The main reasoning behind an aftermarket mani, at this time at least, is for the big turbo guys that are running out of fuel. There is no HPFP upgrade available yet(VTT is working on either running a beefed up single pump or, if that doesn't work, a twin pump solution.) So the aftermarket intake manifolds all feature port fuel injection on top of the DI system.

Honestly, until a real upgrade is available, it's more practical/cheaper to just drill and tap the stock mani for direct port methanol if fueling is the main concern.
Oy. That's too risky. Methanol injection systems are somewhat unreliable in the realm of being a primary source of fueling. I wouldn't take that gamble but I understand if there are no options that can be a last resort for some.
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      04-04-2013, 12:58 PM   #13
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Running a cheapo kit run off of a Hobbs switch and no fail safe is risky. Running a quality kit(IE HIGH quality from the tank to the nozzles) with a fool proof failsafe isn't that risky. I've also seen a very cool piece of kit Cobb is working on as an additional failsafe... but that's a discussion for another time.
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      04-04-2013, 12:58 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Cripple View Post
R&D of a intake manifold is beyond complicated. Flow testing and vibration are extremely complicated. You can't just slap a plenum with runners together and expect gains. The runners have to flow equally and be able to adjust to vibration in the air pattern. BMW has engineered the intake manifold VERY well and more than likely will not be out performed - until you start to port intake valves +1mm than we would likely see development on larger runner intake manifolds + TB's.

Until than, the R&D to out perform the OEM manifold is going to be put on the back burner as more than likely no one will be able to make something better.
I disagree. It's not very well designed. cylinder one is dented to allow room for the oil filter assembly, the plenum can be better engineered...smaller and tapered, and the TB should be as close to cylinder one and as close to 90 degrees from all cylinders. I modeled the stock manifold and we simulated it a few months ago, and compared it to how it should be designed we found that the stock Mahle manifold is good for stock turbo applications. However, it could be made better, gains could be made...theoretically.
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      04-04-2013, 01:12 PM   #15
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I disagree. It's not very well designed. cylinder one is dented to allow room for the oil filter assembly, the plenum can be better engineered...smaller and tapered, and the TB should be as close to cylinder one and as close to 90 degrees from all cylinders. I modeled the stock manifold and we simulated it a few months ago, and compared it to how it should be designed we found that the stock Mahle manifold is good for stock turbo applications. However, it could be made better, gains could be made...theoretically.
That is quite interesting! Once again, I haven't gone into depth with this platform but typically a intake manifold is rarely restricting any gains. TB placement is huge though.

Regardless we should start at the basics fuel + air, from the start. Pump to injectors
Turbo Compressor Outlet - to intake manifold.

I don't foresee large gains in a intake manifold before any of that.
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      04-04-2013, 02:01 PM   #16
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That is quite interesting! Once again, I haven't gone into depth with this platform but typically a intake manifold is rarely restricting any gains. TB placement is huge though.

Regardless we should start at the basics fuel + air, from the start. Pump to injectors
Turbo Compressor Outlet - to intake manifold.
The actual manifold cubic inches should be in ratio with the cubic inches of the motor, a well balanced plenum, for top end power, will be about 110%-130% above the cubic inches of the motor, not to say smaller is worse or larger is better, but that ratio will keep a good balance, and plenty of air for the engine to draw from. For example, the AMS Evo intake manifold is 5.4 liters of plenum for 2.0-2.3 liters of motor, and it is just about the gold standard for aftermarket intake manifolds. Some auto manufactures, like Ford, use small plemums for a better throttle response on their Ecoboost motors. However, it peek power, but their philosophy is to for a V6 to respond like a V8. This is just theory/common beliefs. It's really not an exact science, much of it depends of the philosophy of the car maker, type of driving, etc...

but after poring over the N54 intake manifold for about a year now I think it sucks...just my opinion.
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      04-04-2013, 02:42 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cripple View Post
I'm sure you don't want to give up details, but I would like to know which market this will be for?

I truthfully looked deep into producing a manifold for my old platform (Audi) but even with people running GTX3076's and Precision 6767's would not out flow the OEM manifold - they really only needed a throttle body upgrade for marginal gains.

Granted this is comparing apples to oranges I can not see the market. Possibly a few single turbo people would run a upgraded manifold it would have to have proven flow testing results to even consider. It would also more than likely have to be made to order as these people would want to have oversize intake valve ports; now tell me how many people have oversized ports here?

These people would also probably consider a 3" or 4" outlet on the turbo with 3-4" intercooler piping. I am not to sure (as I am new to this market) who is producing a piping (other than custom) with the appropriate end tanks. This would probably be the next step before producing a intake manifold; at least if it was my business portfolio. Better bang for your buck increase; 1/10th of the R&D time as well.

Regardless I am entertained I would love to see the results of a intake manifold produced by anyone reputable.

Mmmmm... fish..... Lunch time!
I have little information at this time, but there is one in the works. It's being built for a couple single turbo cars (mine included.....but more on that in a few weeks). I think the first one will be done in about 2 weeks. Can't really say much more than that at this time since it's still early on.
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      04-04-2013, 02:51 PM   #18
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I thought the HPF manifold was going to be an attributing factor eliminating the fueling problem by adding a secondary fueling source via port injection. Now I can imagine how complex that could end up being as far as fuel control, as well as having to plumb essentially a secondary fueling system.

I've read mentions of the valve float issues. Who has had the valve float issues? The big single cars and RB cars? Essentially it could be a simple as a valve spring upgrade could be the cure for that floating issue unless it goes beyond that?
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      04-04-2013, 04:16 PM   #19
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I thought they were waiting for someone to develop a fuel system which would combine with their single turbo and exhaust. However, not heard much since and this was earlier last year.
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      04-04-2013, 06:09 PM   #20
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I thought they were waiting for someone to develop a fuel system which would combine with their single turbo and exhaust. However, not heard much since and this was earlier last year.
If you're talking about HPF, then they were just waiting for pro efi to bring ems to the table so they could control the secondary fueling, iirc.
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      04-04-2013, 06:57 PM   #21
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I know of at least 3 people that are talking about delivering manifolds very soon. Honestly it is pretty far down on my list of things to upgrade, fuel is much higher on the list of things that need fixing. Good thing its just about figured out.
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      04-04-2013, 09:47 PM   #22
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Quote:
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I thought the HPF manifold was going to be an attributing factor eliminating the fueling problem by adding a secondary fueling source via port injection. Now I can imagine how complex that could end up being as far as fuel control, as well as having to plumb essentially a secondary fueling system.

I've read mentions of the valve float issues. Who has had the valve float issues? The big single cars and RB cars? Essentially it could be a simple as a valve spring upgrade could be the cure for that floating issue unless it goes beyond that?
I don't think anyone has had issues like that at RB type power levels.
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