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      04-15-2013, 04:12 PM   #23
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watched the video a few times now, although it looks like under steer, but the front wheels are hardly turned?!...

at that speed, I would have though that the rear would snap...and he would have hit the armco with the rear end...

well, I think it's going to be very hard to comment without knowing what the guy was doing in the car i.e pressing the brakes/ throttle and position of the steering etc...


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      04-15-2013, 05:13 PM   #24
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Maybe wrong but the driver was driving like a twat and now has a fecked-up car over his foolishness. Sad.
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      04-16-2013, 01:24 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MEGA View Post
I know of a certain someone whom the same thing happened to.
Was it red and shiney car ??
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      04-16-2013, 05:09 AM   #26
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Not sure why people think the car should have oversteered? Just because a BMW is rwd, doesn't mean it will oversteer at the slightest loss of grip. Unless you've fiddled with the suspension, even a rwd BMW is more likely to understeer then oversteer in most situations as that's how it's setup to behave from the factory as understeer is inherently safer.

If the corner was sharper, his turn angle or his speed was higher than perhaps the back end would have let go first but in this case it's a relatively mild corner. He's gone into an icy corner using the wrong line and going too fast to turn in for the conditions, hit the brakes and lost grip on the front wheels first, the result was only going to end in one way and that was for him to plough straight on. He MIGHT have been able to save it by just trying to turn rather than braking as that would have given his tyres some grip to turn in but unfortunately he has wasted what little grip the tyres had on that surface by panicking and slamming on the anchors. Tyres can either turn or brake but can't really effectively do both, especially on ice.

At the end of the day that place is dangerous at the best of times but on a snowy day unless I was Walter Rohrl, I'd have stayed at home.
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      04-16-2013, 05:49 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guvernator View Post
Not sure why people think the car should have oversteered? Just because a BMW is rwd, doesn't mean it will oversteer at the slightest loss of grip. Unless you've fiddled with the suspension, even a rwd BMW is more likely to understeer then oversteer in most situations as that's how it's setup to behave from the factory as understeer is inherently safer.

If the corner was sharper, his turn angle or his speed was higher than perhaps the back end would have let go first but in this case it's a relatively mild corner. He's gone into an icy corner using the wrong line and going too fast to turn in for the conditions, hit the brakes and lost grip on the front wheels first, the result was only going to end in one way and that was for him to plough straight on. He MIGHT have been able to save it by just trying to turn rather than braking as that would have given his tyres some grip to turn in but unfortunately he has wasted what little grip the tyres had on that surface by panicking and slamming on the anchors. Tyres can either turn or brake but can't really effectively do both, especially on ice.

At the end of the day that place is dangerous at the best of times but on a snowy day unless I was Walter Rohrl, I'd have stayed at home.
I agree, the entry speed was way too high and the track is low on grip anyway. There is no reason to oversteer because the front is not gripping either. In the video of near misses you see a few RWD cars oversteer the corner before, clearly putting their foot down too early, and maybe touching the dirty stuff on the edge of the track.

Too many people hitting the brakes too throwing all the weight forward and spinning the car. Still I don't even think staying off the brakes would have saved the guy in the 335i even without the snow. The gravel trap will help but I think he had too much speed for that to even dig in and stop the car going into the barrier.

Hard to tell from the video but the corner looks banked inwards on entry to first apex and then adverse as you are meant to hit the second and also for some of the straight. If so it's no wonder so many people make mistakes here the weight of the car is being thrown all over the place.
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      04-16-2013, 09:02 AM   #28
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Quote:
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To me it looked like he had some level of TCS enabled because the car started to turn in and then decided it would rather go straight.
You're all forgetting the modern wonders of ESP/DSC.

If he had had it turned OFF, he would have spun easily with the speed and amount of braking applied (front or rear wheel drive would have done that).

He is basically standing on the brakes by the time he gets level with the camera. And ESP/DSC etc are programmed to make cars go STRAIGHT when that happens, steering will be almost non existent, combined with the slippy track, no chance.

That's why ESP gives cars the extra NCAP points - keep the car going forwards and hit objects going forwards, not sideways or backwards.
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      04-16-2013, 09:57 AM   #29
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Interesting, I always thought modern ESP\ABS systems were designed to give you better ability to steer round objects not worse, at least that's what all the adverts seem to suggest. Not that it would have helped in this instance as he was locked up on ice so wasn't going to be steering anywhere.
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      04-16-2013, 10:18 AM   #30
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I had a quick guess that the 335i looked about 0.5 seconds faster from the graffiti on entry to the straightening of the corner which takes the M3 just under 4 seconds approximately.

Given the M3 is the faster car in corners and it still struggles in the sunny and dry you'd expect those numbers to be the other way around considering the weather conditions.

So here are a few frames of key parts of the corner. Granted the M3's line is not as close to the apex, but this is a double apex corner so it's about nailing the second apex and getting speed out of the corner. If you look at it, the M3 takes 1.3 seconds to get to corner entry vs 0.85 for the 335i. The M3 is taking a slightly longer route which explains some of that time, but the 335i is in cold icy conditions!

Frame 3 shows the 335i on the edge in the no grip zone, bet it is just sludge around there. The M3 is 0.6 seconds behind at this point. The guy had no chance. No systems or driver skill can save that, except the skill of not going so fast into that corner.



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      04-16-2013, 10:49 AM   #31
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Quote:
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a lot of examples actually of how staying off the brakes will get you safely (relatively) through that corner

@ 2:40, that is pretty impressive.

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The guy had no chance. No systems or driver skill can save that, except the skill of not going so fast into that corner.
Thanks for looking into this. I thought I was off my rocker in reading some of the comments here that appeared to be over-thinking this. I admit I'm a novice, but it just appeared to me like he carried way too much speed into that line with that car. No wonder he was pulling away from everybody else!
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      04-16-2013, 10:55 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guvernator View Post
Interesting, I always thought modern ESP\ABS systems were designed to give you better ability to steer round objects not worse, at least that's what all the adverts seem to suggest. Not that it would have helped in this instance as he was locked up on ice so wasn't going to be steering anywhere.
Yes, at regular speeds and conditions it will allow small quick turns or manouvres under moderate to hard breaking, i.e. swerve round an object or emergency lane change, but it can't work outside the boundaries of physics!!

If there is insufficient grip - end of story. No ESP can magic that up, all it can do it is go into 'passenger injury limitation mode' and avoid the car spinning at all costs.


ESP is ultimately tasked with stopping the car spinning to keep it going forward at all costs - this is the PRIMARY function.

In the worst case, i.e. high speed, low traction and hard braking, the ESP will essentially kill steering to maintain forward pointing motion - the result being a forward impact - that the car / airbags etc are all designed for.


In his case, he is turning right, but the ESP will be over braking the left wheels to reduce his steering effect, the harder he brakes and the more he steers the harder the ESP will try to oppose this to avoid a spin.
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Last edited by doughboy; 04-16-2013 at 11:02 AM.
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      04-16-2013, 11:07 AM   #33
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It's actually very simple.

That guy was just stupid.

You don't drive on that circuit if you don't know it well. You certainly don't drive there at all as a novice in freezing temperatures when grip is substantially reduced. And you certainly don't gun it under such conditions in a corner that frequently sees accidents - that's the reason why so many people are standing there watching usually.

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      04-16-2013, 11:08 AM   #34
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Hmm again interesting, so in this instance is it a case that he might have been better off without ESP? I can understand ESP wanting to keep you heading straight for the better crash protection but surely there are a few scenarios where you actually WANT the car to be a bit more unstable\mobile. In this scenario I suspect a spin would have been more desirable then ploughing straight on into the armco.
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      04-16-2013, 11:50 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bplewis24 View Post
@ 2:40, that is pretty impressive.



Thanks for looking into this. I thought I was off my rocker in reading some of the comments here that appeared to be over-thinking this. I admit I'm a novice, but it just appeared to me like he carried way too much speed into that line with that car. No wonder he was pulling away from everybody else!
I agree. When I first watched it it looked super fast for that corner. When you take the conditions into account it is just a bonkers speed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpina_B3_Lux View Post
It's actually very simple.

That guy was just stupid.

You don't drive on that circuit if you don't know it well. You certainly don't drive there at all as a novice in freezing temperatures when grip is substantially reduced. And you certainly don't gun it under such conditions in a corner that frequently sees accidents - that's the reason why so many people are standing there watching usually.

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Yep, it even gets a mention on Wikipedia!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guvernator View Post
Hmm again interesting, so in this instance is it a case that he might have been better off without ESP? I can understand ESP wanting to keep you heading straight for the better crash protection but surely there are a few scenarios where you actually WANT the car to be a bit more unstable\mobile. In this scenario I suspect a spin would have been more desirable then ploughing straight on into the armco.
I don't think it would make a difference. The run off was covered in snow! Sideways, forwards, backwards it makes no difference when the couple of meters of run off you have is covered in snow.

Momentum is still in the direction the car was moving, ESP on or off that will still be the case. With the speed he was carrying there was no changing the course the car was moving especially once you hit the adverse camber. If there was everyone would just fling their car in at stupid speed and it would magically drift round the corner faster than the correctly driven line at the right speed.
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      04-16-2013, 12:04 PM   #36
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lol know that corner well amazing how many people stack it there, saying that I've managed to get a suzuki swift sideways on that corner and the previous corner a few times last time I was there. Its slippery with all the paint on the ground as well
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      04-16-2013, 12:09 PM   #37
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ESP

Quote:
Originally Posted by doughboy View Post
Yes, at regular speeds and conditions it will allow small quick turns or manouvres under moderate to hard breaking, i.e. swerve round an object or emergency lane change, but it can't work outside the boundaries of physics!!

If there is insufficient grip - end of story. No ESP can magic that up, all it can do it is go into 'passenger injury limitation mode' and avoid the car spinning at all costs.


ESP is ultimately tasked with stopping the car spinning to keep it going forward at all costs - this is the PRIMARY function.

In the worst case, i.e. high speed, low traction and hard braking, the ESP will essentially kill steering to maintain forward pointing motion - the result being a forward impact - that the car / airbags etc are all designed for.


In his case, he is turning right, but the ESP will be over braking the left wheels to reduce his steering effect, the harder he brakes and the more he steers the harder the ESP will try to oppose this to avoid a spin.

ESP doesn't work quite like that. Essentially it has a steering wheel angle sensor, so it knows where the driver wants to go and it has a yaw sensor, so it knows where the car is going (obviously its a lot more sophisticated than just 2 sensors)

When ESP detects that steering angle and yaw no longer match, ESP will intervene and apply the brakes to bring the car back in line with the driver's commanded direction. For example, when the car starts oversteering, ESP will apply the outside front wheel brake asymmetrically. In understeer, it will apply the inside rear brake. The goal is always to return the car to the driver's intended direction.
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      04-16-2013, 01:30 PM   #38
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Lots of people have also commented on his line...

Can someone tell me what was the "correct" line to take? To me, the line looks ok, I think it was definitely the high entry speed. ( I'm no professional racer btw, not even on ps3! so pls don't flame me!!!)
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      04-16-2013, 03:53 PM   #39
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Quote:
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ESP doesn't work quite like that. Essentially it has a steering wheel angle sensor, so it knows where the driver wants to go and it has a yaw sensor, so it knows where the car is going (obviously its a lot more sophisticated than just 2 sensors)

When ESP detects that steering angle and yaw no longer match, ESP will intervene and apply the brakes to bring the car back in line with the driver's commanded direction. For example, when the car starts oversteering, ESP will apply the outside front wheel brake asymmetrically. In understeer, it will apply the inside rear brake. The goal is always to return the car to the driver's intended direction.
That was my understanding of ESP too, this is why you don't turn it off and hoof it around a corner as instead of keeping you going in the direction you want you create some tyre smoke and end up facing traffic.
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      04-16-2013, 03:59 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zltm089 View Post
Lots of people have also commented on his line...

Can someone tell me what was the "correct" line to take? To me, the line looks ok, I think it was definitely the high entry speed. ( I'm no professional racer btw, not even on ps3! so pls don't flame me!!!)
The entry is actually not too bad at the right speed, he misses the apex but I don't think a race driver would be trying to hit that apex anyway (at correct speeds). I can't remember the corner by heart though. From the video I imagine that you actually want the slightly wider entry so you can hit the second apex on the exit of the corner. A tighter angle on entry so you have less turning on the exit and on the power earlier again.

But with such a high entry speed god knows what he was trying to do. You have to hit the first apex at that speed as you aren't going to have any track to be pushed out onto as your turn.
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      04-17-2013, 03:28 PM   #41
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Probably hadn't got his winter tyres on.
Just what I was thinking!
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      04-17-2013, 03:57 PM   #42
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to me it just looks like he entered too hot and on a slightly off line and then panicked...you don't seem him making any attempts to correct...except jamming on the brakes!
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      04-17-2013, 04:11 PM   #43
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Completely missed the apex for a start. And with all that white stuff on the edge of the track waaaaaaaay too much speed! Even in normal conditions that was ambitious!
+1

I havent even seen guys take that corner at speeds like that in perfectly DRY conditions.

Way too ambitious on that entry.
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      04-17-2013, 06:31 PM   #44
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Looking at data logs from previous visits it's a 50-60mph corner measured at the apex in the dry. From the video it looks like he hardly braked for the corner, and normally you would carry around 85mph on the small straight before braking sharpish and turning in. There was only one outcome from pushing that hard in those conditions.
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