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      04-18-2013, 04:47 AM   #45
MEGA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doughboy View Post
You're all forgetting the modern wonders of ESP/DSC.

If he had had it turned OFF, he would have spun easily with the speed and amount of braking applied (front or rear wheel drive would have done that).

He is basically standing on the brakes by the time he gets level with the camera. And ESP/DSC etc are programmed to make cars go STRAIGHT when that happens, steering will be almost non existent, combined with the slippy track, no chance.

That's why ESP gives cars the extra NCAP points - keep the car going forwards and hit objects going forwards, not sideways or backwards.
This was my exact point. Car decided not to let him try and turn.
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      04-18-2013, 05:02 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by MEGA View Post
This was my exact point. Car decided not to let him try and turn.

I am pretty sure that is wrong. ESP is designed to make sure the car goes where the driver wants it. It is not a replacement for a good driver however.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electro...bility_control
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      04-18-2013, 05:43 AM   #47
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I know very specifically of someone first hand who took too much speed into a corner, tried to give it a bootful to induce oversteer (rightly or wrongly) and had the car brake the inside wheels and cut all power. Net result is he went straight on and hit the armco being totally unable to alter the direction of the car.

I don't really want to get into arguing about which of the varying stability systems caused this to hapen because I wouldn't understand them anyway frankly - it just did. I prefer facts to wikipedia
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      04-18-2013, 05:49 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MEGA View Post
I know very specifically of someone first hand who took too much speed into a corner, tried to give it a bootful to induce oversteer (rightly or wrongly) and had the car brake the inside wheels and cut all power. Net result is he went straight on and hit the armco being totally unable to alter the direction of the car.

I don't really want to get into arguing about which of the varying stability systems caused this to hapen because I wouldn't understand them anyway frankly - it just did. I prefer facts to wikipedia
BMW manual says the same thing. Not that I have read it I am a man of course
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      04-18-2013, 07:03 AM   #49
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The only kind of manual I'm aware of is a manual gearbox.
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      04-18-2013, 01:07 PM   #50
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      04-18-2013, 01:40 PM   #51
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Half expected to see a blond in a grey 335d at that exact corner in the compilation video
Hello big boy

Body rash caused by playing in the gravel doesn't count towards a 'fail' Ed,despite the pain caused to your wallet.

I think you and the better half escaped fairly lightly compared to someone who did suffer a mahoosive 'fail' a little way back on the same track,it was such a 'shiny' car too!

Armco Grey is not the best of colours, especially just on one side of a car.
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      04-19-2013, 04:11 PM   #52
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I am pretty sure that is wrong. ESP is designed to make sure the car goes where the driver wants it. It is not a replacement for a good driver however.
Are we always arguing djgandy?

Yes it works great at reasonable road speeds for which it is designed, not hooning on the ring on ice, it can't beat the laws of physics.

With ABS preventing wheel lock to allow fast swerving manouvres around objects etc, the ESP will work to prevent spins AT ALL COSTS.

But if grip won't allow and the car doesn't react, then the overiding function is to maintain forward motion to ensure frontal impacts, so thats what will happen, outside wheels will be braked to oppose over zealous steering application, i.e promoting understeer and cancelling out steering input if required.

So in a win or lose situation the software will ultimately cause a 'safer' frontal crash, rather than induce a spin trying to comply with inappropriate driver steering input.
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      04-20-2013, 01:44 AM   #53
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A word from Bosch

Here you go!



The system is designed to prevent loss of control caused by 2 wheels skids....i.e understeer, when the front wheels are skidding or oversteer when its the back wheels that are skidding. ESP needs a degree of tyre grip to work. In zero grip situations like ice or diesel oil spills, ESP won't help as applying the brakes has little effect.

Clearly ESP will prevent exuberant driving by preventing the intentional oversteer

I can see exactly what you're getting at, regarding keeping the car straight. ESP will always try to match the car's direction to driver input, but as you say cannot overcome physics. By definition a system designed to prevent oversteer cannot induce oversteer. The software will apply the brakes to the point of oversteer, but not beyond. In other words it will always attempt to follow the driver's input, but not to the point that will itself cause the car to spin. If the driver decides to purposely spin the car, ESP will follow that command up to but not beyond the point that the car spins.

So in essence you're both correct. ESP ALWAYS follows the driver's commands but only as far as it can without inducing a spin.

There is a similar situation with motorcycles and ABS. An experienced rider may elect to lock up the rear wheel in order to induce a skid and lay the bike down (low side) in order to avoid an accident. ABS will prevent the rear from locking up and may make the accident worse. Always a downside

Last edited by SteveC; 04-20-2013 at 02:46 AM.
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      04-20-2013, 03:53 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doughboy View Post
Are we always arguing djgandy?

Yes it works great at reasonable road speeds for which it is designed, not hooning on the ring on ice, it can't beat the laws of physics.

With ABS preventing wheel lock to allow fast swerving manouvres around objects etc, the ESP will work to prevent spins AT ALL COSTS.

But if grip won't allow and the car doesn't react, then the overiding function is to maintain forward motion to ensure frontal impacts, so thats what will happen, outside wheels will be braked to oppose over zealous steering application, i.e promoting understeer and cancelling out steering input if required.

So in a win or lose situation the software will ultimately cause a 'safer' frontal crash, rather than induce a spin trying to comply with inappropriate driver steering input.
Turning ESP off doesn't beat the laws of physics either. Have we forgotten the context of this thread? I thought we'd concluded that the reason he crashed is because he was going way fast for the corner.
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