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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > My Open Source N54 DME Flashing Project



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      04-15-2013, 09:34 PM   #45
shiv@vishnu
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Originally Posted by Ænema View Post
Based on the limited number of people who are using ATR right now I feel like there won't be many people that would jump into this blindly and get in over their heads. It will probably be a very small community at first but hopefully will grow.

I don't know the first thing about ECU hacking but I've got a lot of ATR experience and will help out with that side of it whenever possible.
The advantage of open source tuning isn't only the ability to get access to more maps/tables but also to have a much lower cost of entry for those who just want to by a tool for flashing to use off-the-shelf map. For example, when open source was introduced to the Mitsu/Suby world, the cost to flash your car dropped to $150. Before that, you had to pay $750 for a Ecutek or Cobb flash. Needless to say, in the Mitsu/Suby world, just about everyone replaced their Ecutek/Cobb devices with open source hardware. This is what is appealing about open source tuning for the vast majority of people. For the small minority of tune-saavy tuners, the ability to identify new tables, define new functions, etc,. is what is exciting.

Shiv
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      04-15-2013, 09:38 PM   #46
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Incredible, can't wait to see what you come up with. I was a big contributor to the OpenECU community over on the Evo forums back in 06 when the tactrix cable first hit the market. The openECU movement along with Tephra absolutely transformed the community. I look forward to seeing that realized here as well.
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      04-15-2013, 10:34 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by RombinHood2 View Post
Right now i'm using a hacked $15 OBD2 diagnostic cable (from Amazon) with my Macbook. Although this is temporary. My short-term plan is do be able to do it all through a handheld device like a iphone or ipod. The screen resolution and touch sensitivity on those devices are so good (maybe I'm a little biased ) that they can truly be substitute for a laptop when doing something as simple as map editing/flashing.
If you need dumps let me know. I've got a cable that works with INPA, and am willing to dump my ECU to help your project.
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      04-15-2013, 10:53 PM   #48
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good job guys , which u the best of luck ..
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      04-15-2013, 11:04 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by RombinHood2 View Post
Hello all. I'm new here so please go easy on me For some time, I've been working on an open source DME flashing system for the MSD80/81. I've even managed to tune my car to some degree (more on that later) using software that I've developed with a small group of colleagues who also just happen to be BMW owners. First, I'd like to say that I'm not tuner by any means. And neither are my colleagues. We are just hardware/software nerds with a penchant for hotrodding. This means that none of us want to get involved in any tuning wars or participate in any dramatic debates. We are here only to learn and to spread what little knowledge we have.

By tuning "To some degree" I mean that while I can read, edit and write to the DME, I do not completely understand the interdependencies of some of the tables. I'll be honest, I have [cough] hacked [cough] a few flash tunes and found what has been changed. For instance I know that what appears to be the fuel maps are located at 703A4 and 706B4 addresses on my particular software version (IJE0S) And what appears to be boost/load target maps are at 6318E and 6318E. And so on...

But what I'd really like to learn is what some of these other tables are and how they work. It would be fantastic if we could start an open source tuning community where we can share info. Is there anyone out there that would like to help me define these tables. I'm pretty good at finding tables in raw hex files. But the more eyes we have working on this, the better! If you are interesting in this little project, PM me and we can discuss offline.

Thank you for reading!
Hi again,
I just got home and fired up my files. Just FYI I have the table at 6318E listed as the 'Main Timing Map'. Tables at 703A4 and 706B4 are Fuel Bank 1 and Fuel Bank 2.
This is exciting, I'm sure there will be big things to come.
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      04-15-2013, 11:06 PM   #50
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I'm looking forward to helping as well. This is really cool.
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      04-15-2013, 11:35 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
The advantage of open source tuning isn't only the ability to get access to more maps/tables but also to have a much lower cost of entry for those who just want to by a tool for flashing to use off-the-shelf map. For example, when open source was introduced to the Mitsu/Suby world, the cost to flash your car dropped to $150. Before that, you had to pay $750 for a Ecutek or Cobb flash. Needless to say, in the Mitsu/Suby world, just about everyone replaced their Ecutek/Cobb devices with open source hardware. This is what is appealing about open source tuning for the vast majority of people. For the small minority of tune-saavy tuners, the ability to identify new tables, define new functions, etc,. is what is exciting.

Shiv
Hey Shiv,

Stupid question, and I hope I don't come off wrong, because seeing your support here really speaks to the kind of person you are, but being someone with a "for profit" tuning setup, isn't your support here a possible detriment to some of your possible future revenue? You mention the ability to identify new tables/functions/etc... as what is exciting for you, but I guess I've always viewed open source as a bit of competition to for profits.

I guess my question is why are you so open to supporting and contributing where others aren't. Will you be able to sell maps for use with open source hardware or, honestly I'm having a hard time really framing my question the way I want. Do you understand what I'm trying to say?

I'm very open to financially supporting efforts here since I cannot add to the development side. Do you guys need help setting up donations or have you already done so?
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      04-16-2013, 12:09 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by C ///M View Post
Hey Shiv,

Stupid question, and I hope I don't come off wrong, because seeing your support here really speaks to the kind of person you are, but being someone with a "for profit" tuning setup, isn't your support here a possible detriment to some of your possible future revenue? You mention the ability to identify new tables/functions/etc... as what is exciting for you, but I guess I've always viewed open source as a bit of competition to for profits.

I guess my question is why are you so open to supporting and contributing where others aren't. Will you be able to sell maps for use with open source hardware or, honestly I'm having a hard time really framing my question the way I want. Do you understand what I'm trying to say?

I'm very open to financially supporting efforts here since I cannot add to the development side. Do you guys need help setting up donations or have you already done so?
Lol... it's okay. Fair question. We currently flash DME's, using our own in-house open source tuning system. We charge $100 and each flash we do takes 1.5 hours to read/write. This makes it a very unscalable business model. Which is fine since we do it more as a courtesy than anything else for our Procede customers.

Helping in the development of an open-source at-home flashing system will certainly improve the quality of tunes and provide our customers with more flexibility. The mail-your-dme-to-us solution was always considered to be an inexpensive stop-gap solution until something better came along. And something better, by the looks of it, is coming along. For us, we spent the last year defining all the necessary tables in an open source environment while everyone else was using the closed system that Cobb defined for them. To sit on all this open source data for our own use really doesn't help anyone (not even ourself). And releasing it to the public along with whatever Rombinhood is cooking up just sounds so much more interesting. And having already seen this open source transition in the Evo and Suby markets, I know it's inevitable. We might as well be riding the wave instead of being drowned by it

I'm meeting up with Rombinhood tomorrow night to discuss ideas on how to launch his product so that it is useable for everyone and not just for the few lunatic fringe hackers looking to get access to new tables that haven't been edited before.

Shiv

Last edited by shiv@vishnu; 04-16-2013 at 12:16 AM.
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      04-16-2013, 12:10 AM   #53
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Well said. Consider me a supporter!
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      04-16-2013, 12:54 AM   #54
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Hey Shiv and Rombinhood2,

If y'all need a 6at to play with you can have mine. I'm outta town for a few weeks and can arrange a car pickup/drop off with the wife.

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      04-16-2013, 03:10 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
Lol... it's okay. Fair question. We currently flash DME's, using our own in-house open source tuning system. We charge $100 and each flash we do takes 1.5 hours to read/write. This makes it a very unscalable business model. Which is fine since we do it more as a courtesy than anything else for our Procede customers.

Helping in the development of an open-source at-home flashing system will certainly improve the quality of tunes and provide our customers with more flexibility. The mail-your-dme-to-us solution was always considered to be an inexpensive stop-gap solution until something better came along. And something better, by the looks of it, is coming along. For us, we spent the last year defining all the necessary tables in an open source environment while everyone else was using the closed system that Cobb defined for them. To sit on all this open source data for our own use really doesn't help anyone (not even ourself). And releasing it to the public along with whatever Rombinhood is cooking up just sounds so much more interesting. And having already seen this open source transition in the Evo and Suby markets, I know it's inevitable. We might as well be riding the wave instead of being drowned by it

I'm meeting up with Rombinhood tomorrow night to discuss ideas on how to launch his product so that it is useable for everyone and not just for the few lunatic fringe hackers looking to get access to new tables that haven't been edited before.

Shiv
I think you plan to hurt Cobb's business, like I heard they did to your business on other platforms
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      04-16-2013, 09:05 AM   #56
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This is evolution of things to come.
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      04-16-2013, 09:28 AM   #57
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Despite open source options available in the Subaru world, people still love the Accessport for a reason (we just sold our 10,000th AP-SUB-001 and tens of thousands more for the other Subaru part numbers). You can't make a call to "open source" when things aren't working! I'll admit I'm disappointed to see our hard work copied, but imitation is the highest form of flattery I guess.

-Josh

Last edited by COBB Tuning; 04-16-2013 at 09:35 AM.
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      04-16-2013, 09:50 AM   #58
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I think you plan to hurt Cobb's business, like I heard they did to your business on other platforms
I'm pretty certain that Cobb has zero bearing on what Shiv and Rombinhood are planning on doing.
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      04-16-2013, 10:45 AM   #59
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Cobb did not really invent flash tuning. Actually, they are not in the forefront of flash tuning. They are known for providing easy to use stuff for those who can't do the flash tuning themselves.
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      04-16-2013, 10:47 AM   #60
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      04-16-2013, 10:48 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
Using open source software is no different, to the user, than using ATR. The only differences is that it isn't restricted in terms of map availability/access. You would be able to read/write tuning files from/for other open source users. Basically, nothing is hidden/restricted in the name of IP protection. The open source approach is also considerably lower priced since all you are paying for is basic hardware and because support is community-driven, not by a private for-profit company. Pretty exciting stuff
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      04-16-2013, 10:49 AM   #62
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Wow you tuned a car using a palm pilot! You sir deserve a beer. Today we salute you mr palm pilot car tuner guy!
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      04-16-2013, 10:51 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RombinHood2 View Post
Hello all. I'm new here so please go easy on me For some time, I've been working on an open source DME flashing system for the MSD80/81. I've even managed to tune my car to some degree (more on that later) using software that I've developed with a small group of colleagues who also just happen to be BMW owners. First, I'd like to say that I'm not tuner by any means. And neither are my colleagues. We are just hardware/software nerds with a penchant for hotrodding. This means that none of us want to get involved in any tuning wars or participate in any dramatic debates. We are here only to learn and to spread what little knowledge we have.

By tuning "To some degree" I mean that while I can read, edit and write to the DME, I do not completely understand the interdependencies of some of the tables. I'll be honest, I have [cough] hacked [cough] a few flash tunes and found what has been changed. For instance I know that what appears to be the fuel maps are located at 703A4 and 706B4 addresses on my particular software version (IJE0S) And what appears to be boost/load target maps are at 6318E and 6318E. And so on...

But what I'd really like to learn is what some of these other tables are and how they work. It would be fantastic if we could start an open source tuning community where we can share info. Is there anyone out there that would like to help me define these tables. I'm pretty good at finding tables in raw hex files. But the more eyes we have working on this, the better! If you are interesting in this little project, PM me and we can discuss offline.

Thank you for reading!
This is a very nice initiative and this is what the forums should be all about. Enthusiasts working together as a hobby to come up with solutions that help the community as a whole. I really appreciate your effort.

Last edited by jippii ensio; 04-16-2013 at 11:10 AM.
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      04-16-2013, 11:10 AM   #64
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I will put the app next to my Bimmerpost app on my iPad I could even make a BMW folder!

As far as Cobb vs Open Source, very similar to iOS vs Android
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      04-16-2013, 11:30 AM   #65
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This is really interesting, excited to see this unfold. Although I am no were near a tuner, I am technically savy or so to speak. I would love to get into this with some proper guidence of software/ideology to follow. I will be following this thread, this will definitely be a game changer.
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      04-16-2013, 11:32 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
I'm meeting up with Rombinhood tomorrow night to discuss ideas on how to launch his product so that it is useable for everyone and not just for the few lunatic fringe hackers looking to get access to new tables that haven't been edited before.

Shiv
I am really happy to see you supporting and inviting this kind of initiative. The first thing I thought reading this thread was how well this could possibly mesh with a Procede as a back end flashing solution. Very much looking forward to the future of this project!

Also, in for Paypal donation fund!
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