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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > My Open Source N54 DME Flashing Project



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      04-16-2013, 11:33 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by 2Times View Post
I will put the app next to my Bimmerpost app on my iPad I could even make a BMW folder!

As far as Cobb vs Open Source, very similar to iOS vs Android
If you throw business ethics and customer support/service out of the equation, I guess this is a somewhat accurate analogy.

-Josh
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      04-16-2013, 12:01 PM   #68
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Thanks OP for this, I can't wait to see where this goes.
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      04-16-2013, 12:31 PM   #69
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Consider him supported
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      04-16-2013, 12:34 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
Consider him supported
Thats good shiv, even in light of things I know you are a wealth of good information and hopefully this can truly stay open for us all and not warped into a Vishnu only product. Heres for hoping!
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      04-16-2013, 12:34 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by COBB Tuning View Post
If you throw business ethics and customer support/service out of the equation, I guess this is a somewhat accurate analogy.

-Josh
Don't quite understand this comment. Put enough open source developers in a room and they will come up with some incredible stuff. Look at the Evo market now and see all the functionality that they got once open source was adopted. Plenty of support too.

Last edited by shiv@vishnu; 04-16-2013 at 12:42 PM.
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      04-16-2013, 12:44 PM   #72
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Hey Shiv and Rombinhood2,

If y'all need a 6at to play with you can have mine. I'm outta town for a few weeks and can arrange a car pickup/drop off with the wife.

Steve
Terrific. RH is local to you. So he will be driving your car up to the East Bay tonight. We will be good to it
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      04-16-2013, 12:50 PM   #73
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Vishnu, COBB, let me know what you think about this separation:


COBB is a well established company providing a solid Flash based solution with customer and technical support who value your business and their company's reputation and will be there for you. I don't think that Open Source flash based solutions are going to take over a huge portion of the market share as they are a well established and trusted package deal. The risk is minimal to none and they have spent a lot of time to provide good OTS maps and have a solid ProTuning following that will make sure you have the best tune for your specific car.

This Opensource flash project is ultimately going to be a collaboration of people here and there that can potentially give us some DME flashing capability at minimal expense, however you can't possibly expect a full on customer support staff, even if the flashing process were to be mapped out very well. This doesn't appear to be a typical consumer project unless a lot of time is spent in the GUI developement. They can always 'sell' the support as a sales funnel for projects like this, but I don't think this type of user is going to go that route. Not to mention, the Protuners aren't going to be very excited about tuning this opensource stuff and having their work stolen and replicated.

Personally, I think we're talking two totally different audiences.

The opensource approach gives us more flexibility and freedom, however I think the Packaged Hardware flasher/Real Company paid support will still make sense to most users.

With all of this said, I'm excited to see what can be uncovered with this opensource project. If I knew more about what you guys needed, I'd be happy to help. What language is this going to be written in? I can code c++ and winapi.
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      04-16-2013, 12:51 PM   #74
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Hey Shiv, I apologize for off topic, but did you get my PM? No need to reply right away, just curious if you get a million PM's a day, will you ever see it, etc.. Thanks.

Carry on.

I know it's early in the process, but I haven't seen anything about donations set up yet..

Regarding post above, I'd like to see this thread void of any tuner war posting. Can we keep this about the Open Source project?
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      04-16-2013, 01:07 PM   #75
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I foresee this open source being a great way for remote users to help trouble shoot or try new thing. It will really give the people that want to get knee deep in the logic and inner secrets of what makes the car work. I can only assume there will still be tech support etc. to help trouble shoot.

On the other hand if you are not that technical or that savvy there is always the way we do things now. COBB/JB4 etc. etc.
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      04-16-2013, 01:10 PM   #76
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I hope this type of project will be on git or something like that.
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      04-16-2013, 01:13 PM   #77
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Some Open Source updates:

-K-line support is now available for all early build MSD80 equipped cars!
-Recovery mode in case of loss comms during flash process is also functional
-Initial full DME read takes 55 minutes (on either K-line or CAN supported DMEs)
-Full writes take 11 minutes (on either K-line or CAN supported DMEs)

These read/write times will be subject to change once we try new things later.

I'll be meeting up with the guys at Vishnu tonight to talk shop and to do some test writes/reads on Cupertino Steve's single turbo 335i! Shiv will also give me his definition files that I've been trying to build myself for some time! At that point, we could very well have a fully functioning Open Source flashing system. All that there would be left to do is settle on a supported hardware cable and clean up the UI to at least make it comparable to an existing tuning suite.
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      04-16-2013, 01:18 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RombinHood2 View Post
Some Open Source updates:

-K-line support is now available for all early build MSD80 equipped cars!
-Recovery mode in case of loss comms during flash process is also functional
-Initial full DME read takes 55 minutes (on either K-line or CAN supported DMEs)
-Full writes take 11 minutes (on either K-line or CAN supported DMEs)

These read/write times will be subject to change once we try new things later.

I'll be meeting up with the guys at Vishnu tonight to talk shop and to do some test writes/reads on Cupertino Steve's single turbo 335i! Shiv will also give me his definition files that I've been trying to build myself for some time! At that point, we could very well have a fully functioning Open Source flashing system. All that there would be left to do is settle on a supported hardware cable and clean up the UI to at least make it comparable to an existing tuning suite.
is it possible for you to support multiple cables? For instance I have a BT cable.

Also, how much 'tuning' GUI are you planning on implementing?
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      04-16-2013, 01:18 PM   #79
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Is a "full write" when you flash it for the first time? Would small changes require a full write or can you write to specific tables to keep the time down?
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      04-16-2013, 01:23 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by klipseracer View Post
is it possible for you to support multiple cables? For instance I have a BT cable.

Also, how much 'tuning' GUI are you planning on implementing?
We have yet to decide on a hardware platform. There are a few to chose from each with their own strengths and cons. Given that we have the ability to start fresh, I'm of the mind to do something really nice with the hardware. I'm investigating a few options right now.

The GUI will be supported by someone who is good at that. Definitely not me. Possibly a tuner since only a tuner would be able to provide the necessary support and spearhead the necessary updates.
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      04-16-2013, 01:25 PM   #81
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Is a "full write" when you flash it for the first time? Would small changes require a full write or can you write to specific tables to keep the time down?
As of right now, even the smallest edit will require a full re-write. We are doing just for safety at this time. I suspect with some more testing, we should be able to write individual blocks and save down on programming time. These improvements would likely start rolling out only after we have a stable open source tuning system.
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      04-16-2013, 01:27 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RombinHood2 View Post
Some Open Source updates:

-K-line support is now available for all early build MSD80 equipped cars!
-Recovery mode in case of loss comms during flash process is also functional
-Initial full DME read takes 55 minutes (on either K-line or CAN supported DMEs)
-Full writes take 11 minutes (on either K-line or CAN supported DMEs)

These read/write times will be subject to change once we try new things later.

I'll be meeting up with the guys at Vishnu tonight to talk shop and to do some test writes/reads on Cupertino Steve's single turbo 335i! Shiv will also give me his definition files that I've been trying to build myself for some time! At that point, we could very well have a fully functioning Open Source flashing system. All that there would be left to do is settle on a supported hardware cable and clean up the UI to at least make it comparable to an existing tuning suite.
Great news cant wait to see what comes out in the next few days
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      04-16-2013, 01:36 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RombinHood2 View Post
Some Open Source updates:

-K-line support is now available for all early build MSD80 equipped cars!
-Recovery mode in case of loss comms during flash process is also functional
-Initial full DME read takes 55 minutes (on either K-line or CAN supported DMEs)
-Full writes take 11 minutes (on either K-line or CAN supported DMEs)

These read/write times will be subject to change once we try new things later.

I'll be meeting up with the guys at Vishnu tonight to talk shop and to do some test writes/reads on Cupertino Steve's single turbo 335i! Shiv will also give me his definition files that I've been trying to build myself for some time! At that point, we could very well have a fully functioning Open Source flashing system. All that there would be left to do is settle on a supported hardware cable and clean up the UI to at least make it comparable to an existing tuning suite.
Do you think you could "tune out" or make both of the o2 sensors in the downpipes read from a the same one?. This would make it worlds easier to single turbo the n54.
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      04-16-2013, 01:41 PM   #84
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Do you think you could "tune out" or make both of the o2 sensors in the downpipes read from a the same one?. This would make it worlds easier to single turbo the n54.
I'm not sure why we would want to drop the closed loop fuel control resolution in half by doing so. The o2 sensors are fine where they are and are isolated from hear by thermal isolaters between them and the o2 bung.
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      04-16-2013, 01:43 PM   #85
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Great work! Very good for the market. I also noticed your sence of reality because it does not look like a paperware project.

Cool stuff! What about Icom support (eventually)? Would speed up reading and writing big time. (Check ebay for a working copy).

You could have a look at the INPA cable switcher tool and drivers (although win32)... it is out there... quite an ok implementation.
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      04-16-2013, 01:53 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
I'm not sure why we would want to drop the closed loop fuel control resolution in half by doing so. The o2 sensors are fine where they are and are isolated from hear by thermal isolaters between them and the o2 bung.
I wasn't looking to move them due to the heat, but pressure. Isn't that an issue with running them pre turbo? (Seeing as you already have a solution to the heat issue)


I know when Maximum Psi released their single turbo kit for the s54, NickG wrote a code for both of the sensors to read off one, then they placed a single sensor in the downpipe post turbo.
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      04-16-2013, 01:58 PM   #87
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Wow, so much in so little time! Well done!
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      04-16-2013, 01:59 PM   #88
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Very exciting development, good on you to take the initiative to get it off the ground ROMbinHOOD2.

The map definitions, descriptions and scaling/unit info to me seems crucial at this point, hopefully your meeting with Shiv will be productive in that regard.

I do think at some point you may have to consider access levels to tables based on user experience. I'm not sure it's a good idea to give rookies access to everything, something user selectable would be fine but use at your own risk.

Also, some king of logging ability would be needed if the premise here is to not need other systems to tune.

I wonder if things like injector skewing are in the cards

Awesome work, well done!
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