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      04-22-2013, 10:42 PM   #1
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DPF Delete

I'm actively looking at shops here in Southern California to do a DPF delete on my car, in lieu of repairing the melted DPF and other bits. I'm curious how many of you would be interested in pursuing this avenue if I could get a shop here in the states that will, aside from the one on the East coast, which apparently just opened their doors to this mod (with the support of an EU based company)?

Part of the purpose of this is to create a fire under the shops here to get this moving. I can tell you that 2 very reputable shops I talked to have been considering this, but haven't moved forward with it. My phone calls today definitely peaked interest on their end, though. Both shops have spent extensive time working on BMW's, and I know the owner of one of them...the other came highly recommended from a close friend of mine who knows the Director of Marketing, who won a drift competition in his M3 last weekend, and is very, very well known.

Information is limited at the moment, but both shops are more focused on fabbing a new downpipe, rather than coring out the DPF, which while may be a little more expensive, is worth the work, imo.
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      04-23-2013, 02:00 AM   #2
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Hi Ron1in
Sorry to Hi-jack you thread, I just have one question.....
Whe are the shops so reluctant to just by an OEM part and then fabricate a replacement pipe and a jig to massproduce the downpipe without the DPF?
That should be a piece of cake to sell in the US also......
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      04-23-2013, 09:38 AM   #3
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I am curious, since the dpf is an EPA requirement making it illegal to remove it if any of the shops you spoke with expressed concern about that?

EPA has zeroed in on tuners attempting to skirt the law. Edge was recently fined $500k by the EPA for this very same thing.

http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2013/01...te-filter.html

Last edited by cssnms; 04-23-2013 at 09:43 AM.
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      04-23-2013, 09:45 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cssnms View Post
I am curious, since the dpf is an EPA requirement making it illegal to remove it if any of the shops you spoke with expressed concern about that?

EPA has zeroed in on tuners attempting to skirt the law. Edge was recently fined $500k by the EPA for this very same thing.

http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2013/01...te-filter.html
Touchy subject, that. But if you think about it, it's just as illegal to remove the cats, among many other exhaust modifications, and that's been happening for years. This really is no different. Doesn't make it any more legal, but still...
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      04-23-2013, 09:48 AM   #5
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Ron1n Im with you 3/4 of the world is running w/o a cat i believe. Ive done it on my cars and they ran EXCEPTIONALLY well there after
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      04-23-2013, 10:11 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron1n View Post
Touchy subject, that. But if you think about it, it's just as illegal to remove the cats, among many other exhaust modifications, and that's been happening for years. This really is no different. Doesn't make it any more legal, but still...
That it is.... While removing both are illegal, I think the difference being that a tuner/company is providing a means to skirt the regulation/law i.e. the program that allows the diesel car to function without the DPF. Anyone can remove a cat without needing to hire a tuner to reprogram the ecu to-do-so. If that were possible with the dpf I think it would be less of an issue.

I suspect it's a lot easier for the EPA to go after one big fish that is promoting an illegal product than 250k little fish. Perhaps the simple answer is, labeling the product/tune for "off-road use only?"

Last edited by cssnms; 04-23-2013 at 10:18 AM.
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      04-23-2013, 10:11 AM   #7
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LOL
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      04-23-2013, 10:13 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cssnms View Post
That it is.... While removing both are illegal, I think the difference being that a tuner/company is providing a means to skirt the regulation/law i.e. the program that allows the diesel car to function without the DPF. Anyone can remove a cat without any need to hire a tuner to reprogram the ecu. If that were possible with the dpf I think it would be less of an issue.

I suspect it's a lot easier for the EPA to go after one big fish that is promoting an illegal product than 250k little fish. Perhaps the simply answer is, labeling the product for "off-road use only?"
I thought I read somewhere recently that said that didn't work anymore?
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      04-23-2013, 10:19 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron1n View Post
I thought I read somewhere recently that said that didn't work anymore?
hmmmm,,, that wouldn't be good. See what I can dig up.
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      04-23-2013, 10:33 AM   #10
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Another diesel truck tuner that offers dpf delete kits/tunes has this disclaimer. I am not sure if that makes it legal or not. I would think Edge would have stated something similar?

THIS IS A HIGH PERFORMANCE /RACE ONLY PRODUCT. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. This product is not for use on highways. Do not use this Product until you (the “Buyer”) have carefully read this Disclaimer. Be sure to abide by all local, state and federal laws.

http://dpfdeletepipe.com/Disclaimer_DPF.pdf
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      04-23-2013, 10:37 AM   #11
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Here is another diesel tuner following a similar strategy... Shoot they will not even sell to you if you live in CA!

"According to the EPA Clean Air Act, they are illegal for use on any Federal, State, or Local public highways and illegal use is punishable by the penalties enacted by the mentioned laws. We do not condone illegal use of these products, and an Environmental and Liability waiver must be signed before any DPF-Delete products will ship. Additionally, the off road products are strictly forbidden and will not be sold in California."

http://www.dpfdeletekits.com/?limit=5&mode=list
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      04-23-2013, 10:39 AM   #12
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thats the CORRECT disclaimer!!!!!
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      04-23-2013, 11:28 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Puerto Rican 335d View Post
thats the CORRECT disclaimer!!!!!
I don't think it is that simple... The EPA has new emmissions standards in place for off-road vehicles to include diesel vehicles. There are literally thousands of pages of regulations that speak to emissions guidelines to include what is exempt and what is not and according to the below, there is no general "off-road" use exemption from the pollution control requirements of the CAA.


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"Casper’s sold over 44,000 O2 Sims before further sales of these illegal “defeat devices” were halted as a result of EPA’s investigation and follow-up enforcement action. These devices were advertised for “off road use only” or “non-road use only.” However, the O2 Sims were designed and marketed to be used in regular production vehicles (“on road” or “on highway” vehicles), which is illegal under the Clean Air Act. In addition, while there are different control standards for “off road” vehicles (e.g., construction equipment) because of differences in the types of engines and applications, there is no general “off road” use exemption from the pollution control requirements of the Clean Air Act."

http://www.epa.gov/oecaerth/resource...aa/casper.html

Hence why a tuner may want to consult with an attorney to navigate the complicated web of regulations. Or alternatively they can roll the dice.
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      04-23-2013, 11:48 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron1n View Post
I'm actively looking at shops here in Southern California to do a DPF delete on my car, in lieu of repairing the melted DPF and other bits. I'm curious how many of you would be interested in pursuing this avenue if I could get a shop here in the states that will, aside from the one on the East coast, which apparently just opened their doors to this mod (with the support of an EU based company)?

Part of the purpose of this is to create a fire under the shops here to get this moving. I can tell you that 2 very reputable shops I talked to have been considering this, but haven't moved forward with it. My phone calls today definitely peaked interest on their end, though. Both shops have spent extensive time working on BMW's, and I know the owner of one of them...the other came highly recommended from a close friend of mine who knows the Director of Marketing, who won a drift competition in his M3 last weekend, and is very, very well known.

Information is limited at the moment, but both shops are more focused on fabbing a new downpipe, rather than coring out the DPF, which while may be a little more expensive, is worth the work, imo.
I think it's important to recognize you are looking at a 2 part process: the physical part (downpipe), and the programming part (eliminate the regen process). I wouldn't want to do the physical part without having a plan for the programming part.

I know you already know this, but thought it might be worth stating for posterity for those that might be looking to do this in the future.
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      04-23-2013, 11:50 AM   #15
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I think it's important to recognize you are looking at a 2 part process: the physical part (downpipe), and the programming part (eliminate the regen process). I wouldn't want to do the physical part without having a plan for the programming part.

I know you already know this, but thought it might be worth stating for posterity for those that might be looking to do this in the future.
You're absolutely right. Worst case, the plan can be shipping off the ECU to a tuner that does the work. Best case, I find a one stop shop. I'm pursuing both options right now.
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      04-23-2013, 12:02 PM   #16
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Ok, I can see the arguments of having someone to code out the EPA systems, It's not as easy and DIY'ish as removing the cat's.
That might be the reason for the shops in US not to go into that market since it's obvius that someone has been doing something with the ECU to get it to work.
And that is normally not a DIY job....

Regarding the 2 step process, I did drive without my DPF for a few days before my tuner had the time for the remap. I did not have any engine faults or anything. In that time I did not floor it or drive it hard in any way because of the change in back pressure. I didn't know if that could harm the turbo.....
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      04-23-2013, 12:06 PM   #17
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Quote:
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Ok, I can see the arguments of having someone to code out the EPA systems, It's not as easy and DIY'ish as removing the cat's.
That might be the reason for the shops in US not to go into that market since it's obvius that someone has been doing something with the ECU to get it to work.
And that is normally not a DIY job....

Regarding the 2 step process, I did drive without my DPF for a few days before my tuner had the time for the remap. I did not have any engine faults or anything. In that time I did not floor it or drive it hard in any way because of the change in back pressure. I didn't know if that could harm the turbo.....
Was the DPF completely removed? Or cored out? My master tech expressed some possible concern that with the turbo being exposed, that the combustion heat coming out of the turbo might be sufficient to cause a fire.
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      04-23-2013, 04:25 PM   #18
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Yes, the DPF was completely removed and replaced with a DPF removal pipe from Ecotune.
They have made a lot of them, så I would not expect fire to be a problem.
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      04-23-2013, 05:31 PM   #19
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Ah, I see. So there was at least a replacement in place.
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      04-23-2013, 06:59 PM   #20
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The DPF delete and ECU recoding is so commonplace for the big diesels in American trucks- Ford, Chevy, Dodge. Pretty much every diesel truck owner uses aftermarket coding using EFILive or something similar.

So, in my opinion, all of these arguments over what is legal/right/etc. are moot since there are p l e n t y of people with different vehicles doing exactly what ron1n is trying to do with his car.

Frankly, if the ECU wasn't encrypted, I think we'd see DPF delete already available.

Finally, based on what I've experienced with friends trucks with aftermarket coding and DPF deletes installed, I predict that the performance, exhaust sound and economy gains will be very impressive on the 335d.

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      04-24-2013, 07:19 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ewodzien View Post
The DPF delete and ECU recoding is so commonplace for the big diesels in American trucks- Ford, Chevy, Dodge. Pretty much every diesel truck owner uses aftermarket coding using EFILive or something similar.

So, in my opinion, all of these arguments over what is legal/right/etc. are moot since there are p l e n t y of people with different vehicles doing exactly what ron1n is trying to do with his car.

Frankly, if the ECU wasn't encrypted, I think we'd see DPF delete already available.

Finally, based on what I've experienced with friends trucks with aftermarket coding and DPF deletes installed, I predict that the performance, exhaust sound and economy gains will be very impressive on the 335d.

-Ed
You're missing the point. The EPA has recently zeroed in on tuners to include diesel tuners. While that might not mean much to the individual owner who has already done a dpf delete, the exposure to the actual tuners is HUGE. They have already taken down the largest diesel tuner out there crippling them financially, so I wouldn't consider the issue "moot." The EPA is no joke.
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      04-24-2013, 09:04 AM   #22
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Quote:
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You're missing the point. The EPA has recently zeroed in on tuners to include diesel tuners. While that might not mean much to the individual owner who has already done a dpf delete, the exposure to the actual tuners is HUGE. They have already taken down the largest diesel tuner out there crippling them financially, so I wouldn't consider the issue "moot." The EPA is no joke.
Based on what you've posted, shouldn't this concern be directed at the companies, not the individuals? If so, then the point has been made, let's move on.
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