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      09-21-2012, 11:08 AM   #1
DieselDiner
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Significant Progress on Wagner FMIC

As some of you are aware, one of our members in Germany (335dwagon) travelled to Wagner's home base in his d and allowed Wagner to model the factory i/c on 3D software. At the time Wagner indicated a 60 day window to be able to move forward.

I pmed Nick at Wagner USA recently and asked for an update, and also asked if I could share the info with the board. He okayed me to do so.

First, where are we at in the development process?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NICK@WAGNER-TUNING
right now we are about 2 weeks out till the sample unit comes in and then if everything checks out good off to production.
If the new unit goes to production, what would the estimated time line be?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NICK@WAGNER-TUNING
If everything goes good it will take us 45 days to get 50 units on the shelf.
So there you have it. This is pretty darn exciting - we'll have a bespoke fmic that fits in the factory location. Keep fingers crossed.

Disclaimer: I have no financial stake in this; I merely got our board mate in Germany together with Wagner to start the process. My only financial involvement will be the money I pay to buy one!
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      09-21-2012, 11:39 AM   #2
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So as the average 335d jbd driver what will this get me....I know less heat soak etc...but in terms of day to day driving what could I expect....I've added larger fmic to audis that I've owned in the past but I am somewhat new to diesel tia
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      09-21-2012, 11:53 AM   #3
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Good Info I will in up to get one when they come out..
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      09-21-2012, 12:10 PM   #4
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      09-21-2012, 02:06 PM   #5
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DieselDiner kudos, I also have had the same response from the Doc and Nick. Im glad its coming thru ,for those who dont know WAGNER, the are a primier IC gurus in Europe, i was informed that when they came across the Doc's Diesel they were perplexed at the configurations and they did a scan on it so they could get the best IC for the beast, needless to say it done!! But for those who want to know TurboEddie from the [Admin Notified] site did his own IC and he stated to me that hte Cx Racing IC is helping his car and he is getting anywhere from 44-47 mpg hwy!! yes you read that correcto!!!!I often speak to TurboEddie and we have come to a conclusion unlike a beast we have an ANIMAL in our hands!!!!!
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      09-21-2012, 04:21 PM   #6
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Nice work Joseph!

Quote:
Originally Posted by chenry View Post
So as the average 335d jbd driver what will this get me....I know less heat soak etc...but in terms of day to day driving what could I expect....I've added larger fmic to audis that I've owned in the past but I am somewhat new to diesel tia
A good read as it reates to an IC and the TDI engine....



Another component in a good turbo setup is the intercooler. After intake air passes through the turbo, it heats up partly because of higher pressure. The ideal gas law states that when all other variables are constant, if pressure is increased, so will temperature. An intercooler lowers air temps before passing the air into the engine. (Some other sources of heat are the intake piping soaking heat from a hot engine bay, because the turbo is so close to the exhaust with hot exhaust gasses passing through the exhaust side of the turbo, and mechanical agitation of the air by the turbine wheel.) Without an intercooler, hot air increases the likelihood of uncontrolled detonation and engine damage.

An intercooler is basically a heat sink that takes away the heat of the intake charge. Here is a picture of an intercooler in a Jetta TDI. Cooling ambient air moves through the front bumper, through the intercooler, and through the wheel well in the direction of the arrow. More air moves through the intercooler as the car moves faster.

You don't see intercoolers on non-turbo cars because the intake air is already at ambient temperature. An air intake directly connected to an intercooler or anywhere not after the turbo would actually decrease performance by restricting airflow. Below is a funny picture of an "interfooler", someone who put an intercooler on a non turbo car. It's there because they want to look cool and are ignorant of what its function is. Even worse, the air filter is exposed and low enough to suck up water and damage the engine.


The goal of intercooling is to produce the least pressure drop (so the turbo doesn't have to work as hard) and remove the most heat. Depending on the exact setup, the average well designed intercooler in a car may have .5-2.0 psi pressure drop. There is always some pressure differential between the turbo and the engine to get air moving from one spot to another. An intercooler acts more like a heat sink and less like a radiator when boosting because boosting heats up the intake air. This heat is transferred into the intercooler like a heat sink. Then the intercooler releases the heat into the ambient air or coolant. Most of the heat leaves with the ambient air flow (while the car is moving, air is passing through the air ducts) but a little heat can go back into the intake air once air temps have dropped (heat moves from hot to cold).

A good air-air intercooler can cool the air to within 20 degrees of ambient temperature if it has steady airflow to take away the heat. The advantage of a good air-water intercooler is more consistent intake air temperatures because water is a better heat sink. Water (coolant) is not as quickly affected by rapid changes in ambient air temperatures and car speed. But once water is hot, some heat goes out a radiator and some goes back into the air-water intercooler's intake air. Some cars don't have the routing or space for a good air-air intercooler so they must use an air-water intercooler.

An air-air intercooler is preferred for diesels because they are normally front engine so there's plenty of space for plumbing. An air-air intercooler is also easier to fabricate with less chance for leaks. If there is a major water leak into the intercooler core, it's possible that this could hydrolock the high compression diesel engine. A air-water intercooler is more appropriate on a mid engine car due to difficulty of intercooler packaging or a car with more peaky temperatures.

In a gasoline engine, the engine is operating at vacuum or low boost most of the time. Low boost doesn't heat the intake air as much as hard boosting and as a result, doesn't transfer as much heat to the intercooler. In other words, a larger intercooler is not needed unless you need the extra heat sink capability! Most modified gasoline cars would benefit a little from a larger intercooler due to higher than stock boost levels. However, how much it's needed in only lightly modified cars is debatable due to variations between cars, ambient outside temperatures, intended use (street vs. track), desired safety margin and fuel octane, etc.. For example, a large front mount intercooler will cool better than a small intercooler but it may not fit, may be blocked by the bumper, cause overheating problems due to blocking the radiator, etc.. Also check for leaves or dirt blocking the face of the intercooler.

A diesel engine has a greater need for an effective heat sink vs. a similar gasoline engine because of higher sustained boost levels. Turbos are also smaller for a number of reasons, for example, the smaller rpm range. I think that even lightly modified VW TDI could benefit from more efficient intercooling for maximum peak power. The best way to determine the need is to log pressure and temperature at the turbo and at the intake manifold. Especially for a front engine TDI, an air-air intercooler (which you already have) is the best option. The VW TDI naturally puts an oily mist on the inside of the intercooler from the crank case ventilation (CCV) system but trying to keep the inside clean is like trying to keep the oil dipstick clean. Gasoline cars shouldn't have any oil inside the intercooler.

If you must paint the intercooler to help hide it, use 1-2 light sprays of radiator paint or even better, a heat shedding coating like Swaintech's "BBE heat emitting coating". I don't know how well it works since bare Al is already very good at shedding heat. My guess is that because it sells well and measuring before-after intake air temperatures is so easy (assuming equal ambient test conditions), that it probably works.

Spraying coolant onto the outside of the intercooler is very effective because it can lower the temperature of the intake air below ambient air temps. CO2 (compressed carbon dioxide gas), N2O (nitrous), and just regular water all work very well at increasing intercooler effectiveness but only work until your coolant runs out. If you are preparing a short race, placing bags of ice on an air-air intercooler or chilling the coolant in a water-air intercooler works well too.

Keep in mind that in most modern turbo cars, turbo pressure is regulated by how much pressure is seen at the intake manifold, not at the turbo! Some also measure the air temp at or near the manifold. Regardless of intercooler efficiency, pressure at the intake manifold should drop only a little. As an example, assume an engine that limits boost to 15 psi at the intake manifold. If you have two turbo setups, one with an efficient intercooler with only 1 psi pressure drop and the other with than an inefficient intercooler with 4 psi pressure drop, the turbo with the efficient intercooler only has to make 16 psi at the turbo whereas the inefficient setup has to make 19 psi at the turbo. The turbo making 19 psi is mechanically more stressed and is creating more heat than the turbo that has to make only 16 psi, everything else being equal. If the turbo is pushed beyond the optimum area of efficiency, it will create exponentially greater amounts of heat and pressure. Again, pressure does not equal density, you are still creating the same amount of pressure seen at the intake manifold that regulates the turbo but the air is less dense and hotter, which creates less engine power and efficiency. This could also happen with an air leak. A common issue with the VW TDI is the sudden loss of power known as limp mode. The VW TDI ECU has pressure and air temp sensors and if the ECU senses a problem, it cuts power to prevent damage to the turbo and engine, preventing damage to the turbo from an overspeed.
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      09-22-2012, 07:52 PM   #7
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Great news! Will it fit X5d?
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      09-23-2012, 07:54 AM   #8
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Quote:
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Great news! Will it fit X5d?
I think you'll need to be careful. I looked up both i/c's on realoem, and they have 2 different part numbers:

335d: 17517800682
X5d: 17517805150

My very limited experience with BMW is that different part numbers means that the 2 i/c's are not interchangeable. The only way to know for sure would be to test fit and see.
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      09-23-2012, 09:54 AM   #9
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I know thre are different fit nets for the 335i m-sport and standard bumpers. Any idea on which this is being tested?
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      09-23-2012, 11:24 AM   #10
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I know thre are different fit nets for the 335i m-sport and standard bumpers. Any idea on which this is being tested?
Not sure what you mean by "nets"?
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      09-23-2012, 11:50 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FormerRotor View Post
I know thre are different fit nets for the 335i m-sport and standard bumpers. Any idea on which this is being tested?
The only difference is the IC cowling, the IC is the same between the standard and M Sport.
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      09-23-2012, 05:27 PM   #12
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Quote:
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The only difference is the IC cowling, the IC is the same between the standard and M Sport.
Awesome. Good knowledge.
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      09-23-2012, 05:37 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DieselDiner View Post
Not sure what you mean by "nets"?
Lol, sorry. I'm not sure; We'll have to ask my iPad. That should've read "fitments" which it usually tries to correct to "figments", but I must have misspelled and in all of its infitnite wisdom it thought "fit nets" better suited the sentence.

I once had the damn thing change once of my clients named (Merrone) to Moron without noticing in a business email. "good afternoon, moron,"...That went over quite well. Fortunately she has a sense of humor (and some Apple products).
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      09-24-2012, 02:42 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cssnms View Post
Nice work Joseph!



A good read as it reates to an IC and the TDI engine....


...A good air-air intercooler can cool the air to within 20 degrees of ambient temperature if it has steady airflow to take away the heat...
Going from what my OBD port reader thing I have, our IC's cool air under full boost to about +10F over ambient. How much better can this one be able to do?
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      09-24-2012, 03:02 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MonkUSMC View Post
Going from what my OBD port reader thing I have, our IC's cool air under full boost to about +10F over ambient. How much better can this one be able to do?
The larger IC may not necessarily cool better at first pass, but it is more about being able to sustain the optimal ambient temperature difference for a longer period of time while under load.
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      09-25-2012, 06:00 AM   #16
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Chris specially in HEAVY traffic like I have here in Puerto Rico!!! I drive at least over 90% percent of my driving in Traffic since I live in the metro area
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      09-25-2012, 08:06 AM   #17
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Quote:
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Chris specially in HEAVY traffic like I have here in Puerto Rico!!! I drive at least over 90% percent of my driving in Traffic since I live in the metro area
Axel, you should got a hybrid!
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      09-25-2012, 08:51 AM   #18
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HELLLL NNOOOOO!!! I rather ride a mule before a hybrid!! LOL

All considered I should of bought one but just by mere fact you mention a BMW DIESEL, people say DIESEL? no way I didnt know bimmers came with DIESEL engines!! LOL
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Last edited by Puerto Rican 335d; 09-25-2012 at 08:53 AM. Reason: more info
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      09-26-2012, 07:45 AM   #19
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I just email WAGNER and requested info, once I get the response I will post with their permission, ok. Cant wait to see the product and what it will do to our beasts !!!
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      09-26-2012, 09:21 AM   #20
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Ok amigos I got the 1st of the production from the HEAD HONCHO!! Wagner Himself here is his response to my email:

Hello Axel,



We made 2 Prototypes and these are in my Hands right now.

After approval on a 335d and a 330d we are going right into production. We are going to make 100 then. This will take aprox. 45 days.

Price in Europe will be 650 Euros, and for North America it will be 650 USD.



The cooler is a real Plug and Play unit. It also uses the factory hoses.



Attached some crappy iphone pics, I will send you a couple more detailed shots these days.





Thanks.



mit freundlichen Grüßen / best Regards

Carsten Wagner
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      09-26-2012, 09:26 AM   #21
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Here's the pics:
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      09-26-2012, 10:45 AM   #22
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That is pretty. I can't wait to see some technical specs. Re: volume, pressure drops & temps (if being released).
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