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      05-14-2013, 08:24 PM   #1
Zoli007
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F1 tires/refueling discussion.

I've had several debates with friends regarding the tire situation in F1.

We saw a few years back when we had tires that lasted a long time along with refueling that we had boring processional races that rarely broke the order of qualifying.

We then introduced DRS, crap tires and no refueling. The racing has indeed gotten more interesting but in a way its also artificial and frustrating to watch the pinnacle of motorsport having to conserve tires and significantly reduce their pace just to make them last. I'd understand if this was endurance racing, but its not.

I was suggesting if we leave the tires as they are, perhaps just a bit more durable and having a wider performance envelope, and then just reintroduce refueling.

Think about it, currently they cant push hard in the beginning because of the extreme weight of the fuel. If they make a mistake in the beginning, then they are screwed because they are stuck on the fuel load they started in.

IF you bring back the refueling, qualifying will become more interesting. You will do Q3 with your race fuel load so you will see the cars on track to burn off as much as possible before going for their hot lap. In the race you will see differing strategies. It will be possible to recover from a bad mistake in the begining by fueling light and running flat out. Slower cars will gain grid spots by fueling light, etc...

AND, because they figured out the DRS which allows them to not get blocked badly by a car on a different strategy, I think it could be a perfect compromise. Super long lasting tires AND refueling I think could cause the boring to come back, as well as simply super long lasting tires. I think the fuel is what can/should change to spice it up. AND you get an occasional fire as well
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      05-14-2013, 09:10 PM   #2
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+1 they need to re introduce refueling to make it really interesting and exciting
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      05-14-2013, 09:23 PM   #3
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Lost battle that fixes one issue and creates more. I'm glad I don't get paid the big bucks to figure that mess out.
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      05-14-2013, 09:29 PM   #4
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Agreed, and if they are running lighter fuel loads the tires will last longer without any changes to the compounds. And although sub 3 second pit stops are an amazing thing to watch, I think refueling would make for better racing.

Unfortunately it won't happen, the formula is already set for 2014.
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      05-14-2013, 09:53 PM   #5
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Actually. What I really want is single lap qualy from 03ish. Those were great sessions.
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      05-14-2013, 11:03 PM   #6
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I'm glad I'm not the only one that thinks F1 is getting boring.

I can understand the need for "the edge" whether be it car setup, driver, or dumb luck. But there has to be something that tightens up the field where no one can build up such a big lead. I hate to say it but NASCAR and Austrialian V8 have door to door action which makes it fun to watch.

May sound stupid, but maybe halfway through the race there is a mandatory stop where the safety car comes out and slows it all down. Could be one or two laps where everyone gets into one big pack again. You can only image the opportunity drivers would take going into the first turn and there might be a change in order.

Just a thought, might have been done in the past but never worked.
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      05-14-2013, 11:38 PM   #7
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Race refueling would be great. It would add another element to these "races", but guys would be taking off with the fuel rig attached catching fire. I'd rather see Moto GP style single tire selection for the race. These current tires are a waste IMO. If I owned a team and saw my season go away due to these tires I'd be more than irate. I don't know what they do with all of these old tires, but they should cut down on the waste. Get some good tires on these cars and let them race.

I don't understand how the Ferrari was so good on these Pirelli tires in Spain??? It couldn't be the Italian heritage could it? Naa Alonso in a Ferrari is just that good right?
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      05-15-2013, 06:46 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by URBAN LEGEND View Post
Actually. What I really want is single lap qualy from 03ish. Those were great sessions.
+1 those were amazing
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      05-15-2013, 08:06 AM   #9
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Refueling was a safety issue so I don't see that coming back anytime soon. I think it's tough to fairly compare the Bridgestones to the Pirellis as the Bridgestones were never tasked with race laps with full race fuel loads.

When Schumi just marched along to win after win for 7 seasons, was that more exciting to watch? We have had more different race winners in the last two years than ever before. Isn't that what the people wanted? A little more variety on the podium?

What I really like about this season is that they've had to successfully manage several strategies and variables at the same time. This makes the teams think more and get more creative, however when one team gets it 100% right and others get it 100% wrong, you have someone like Alonso winning by a half a minute. It just goes to show how much thought must go into race strategy. The issue is bigger than tires.
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      05-15-2013, 08:52 AM   #10
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Why not just take out all the crappy drivers/teams and replace them with guys that are competitive? (Yes I know, costs... it's a hypothetical question). Everyone knows that F1 has about 8-10 dudes that anyone can bet the farm on as winners or podium finishers at least; week after week and sometimes year after year. And if those 8-10 don't win, more than likely they'll score points when they don't drive over their own front wing or have other hydraulic issues. The rest of the field usually just fizzles out after turn 1 and turns into traffic. If I wanted to watch traffic, I'd walk up to Peachtree Street with a folding chair and sunblock.
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      05-15-2013, 09:13 AM   #11
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Refueling will never come back. Safety and costs will ensure that. Without any pit stops many F1 races would largely be parades with little passing other than due to accidents or breakdowns. By using more fragile tires, they've instituded more variables that everyone has to figure out how to deal with. I'm sure Pirelli is working to improve the compounds slightly, but the bottom line is that this approach is raising Bernie's bottom line so I don't think they'll change anything.
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      05-15-2013, 04:54 PM   #12
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Bring back refuling, get rid of DRS
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      05-15-2013, 04:58 PM   #13
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Having a tyre delaminate at over 150mph is hardly enhancing safety and I guarantee having fuel rigs in the pits is probably less of a risk than shagged out tyres that are still being used on the track. I personally feel that if getting weight out of the car enhances tyre life and safety on track, then bring back re-fueling. It's another reason to complicate strategy so perhaps it will mix things up even more. God knows McClaren won't get the strategy correct! lol
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      05-15-2013, 05:49 PM   #14
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See how this is going? In circles. Good luck fixing this and having team's support who are in it for themselves.
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      05-15-2013, 10:06 PM   #15
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i think the racing has been fantastic. ferrari and lotus are just doing the best job of balancing speed and wear. its always going to be about tire
management. back in the Prost days, he was known for being easy on tires without giving up speed.

if you give them a more durable tire they go faster and wear out the tires.

the need to fix qualy, we need to see ultimate speed without saving tires
for the start race.

no easy answers.
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      05-16-2013, 12:23 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mnelson3 View Post
the need to fix qualy, we need to see ultimate speed without saving tires
for the start race.
As it is right now, even if they didn't force the top 10 from qualy to start on the same tires, with 4 stop races the teams will most likely run out of fresh sets of tires anyways in a weekend. Apparently Hamilton's fastest time in Q3 was set on an already worn set of options.

Reducing the number of tires needed in the race will allow teams to practice and setup a bit more in the practice sessions without risking their Sunday performance. With testing being limited to these few days anyways, I see no reason to limit them further with tire constraints. Save for the additional cost on Pirelli to bring that many more sets of tires to each race.
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      05-16-2013, 11:42 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timujin View Post
Race refueling would be great. It would add another element to these "races", but guys would be taking off with the fuel rig attached catching fire. I'd rather see Moto GP style single tire selection for the race. These current tires are a waste IMO. If I owned a team and saw my season go away due to these tires I'd be more than irate. I don't know what they do with all of these old tires, but they should cut down on the waste. Get some good tires on these cars and let them race.

I don't understand how the Ferrari was so good on these Pirelli tires in Spain??? It couldn't be the Italian heritage could it? Naa Alonso in a Ferrari is just that good right?
Maybe it's because both Ferrari and Lotus took consideration of the tires when they designed their 2013 cars. The Red Bull have too much downforce and didn't take consideration of the Pirellis, and that's why they're destroying their tires. Why don't they just work around it instead of complaining at every race to Pirelli.

I think it's BS that Pirelli is changing their tires. It's really unfair for the teams that figured it out such as Ferrari, Lotus and Force India. Eric Bouiler said it's like widening a goal in the middle of a football season because one team cannot score any goals.

EDIT: also what about just simply bringing more testing back so the teams could understand the tires early on. It would also be beneficial for all the rookies. All Pirelli have is a 2010 Renault that laps four or five seconds slower than the current F1 cars.
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      05-16-2013, 08:25 PM   #18
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/22543884

Very interesting article. Brings up some good points and interesting to see that there really is not too much difference from last year as far as the times and degradation. Just more noise from a certain team.

It really is crazy that they have so few tests. MotoGP has a test seemingly every few months. They just had a race at Jerez and they had a test a few days after the GP.
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      05-16-2013, 08:37 PM   #19
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A friend proposed closing the pits all-together, putting them on a spec tire that can do the race distance and opening up engine development almost completely, but regulating it with a race fuel allocation. i.e. Every team can fuel the car with up to xx kg of fuel for the race and use it however they want.

That way, they can design the power train in any way they think will make them the fastest during the race without running out of fuel. It would encourage real innovation with a practical application (fuel-efficient, high-performance engines and transmissions) and the variety of engineering approaches would differentiate the cars and make the racing more interesting to watch.
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      05-16-2013, 09:18 PM   #20
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Quote:
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That way, they can design the power train in any way they think will make them the fastest during the race without running out of fuel. It would encourage real innovation with a practical application (fuel-efficient, high-performance engines and transmissions) and the variety of engineering approaches would differentiate the cars and make the racing more interesting to watch.
That would make for some boring racing. Inherent pace differences would spread the cars so far out during the duration of a race. You'd probably end up with one team finding some golden egg and sweeping the series. Not to mention the ridiculous amounts of money the development for all these new areas would be. Which would totally isolate the mid and back field teams into their own formula series.
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      05-17-2013, 09:39 AM   #21
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That would make for some boring racing. Inherent pace differences would spread the cars so far out during the duration of a race. You'd probably end up with one team finding some golden egg and sweeping the series. Not to mention the ridiculous amounts of money the development for all these new areas would be. Which would totally isolate the mid and back field teams into their own formula series.
It would definitely cause a huge development war. But I disagree that it would result in boring racing. The pace of development would be HUGE for awhile, which would be exciting week-to-week and then manufacturers will start to get closer to theoretical limits in efficiency and the teams will even out a bit.
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      05-17-2013, 09:58 AM   #22
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That would create a total snoozefest. The pits is where some very interesting action takes place. Not to mention the heritage of relying on more people than solely the driver and engineers. It's a part of the charm and essence of racing.
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