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      05-23-2013, 12:09 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ammonia View Post
My only consolement is I killed several dozen of his disgusting relatives while in Afghanistan.
And then America wonders why they get attacked?
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      05-23-2013, 12:50 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Torxist View Post
You can see what this attitude has gotten your country. You are still as helpless and vulnerable as the day before 911, because you refuse to address the underlying issue. Your policies and treatment of people in that region of the world.

And let me just add this. I have trained with American military and the Afghan Mujahadeen. Take away your weapons and technology and you don't stand a chance against them. They are more fierce, more aggressive and more determined. Just ask the Soviets. What's more they aren't afraid to die for the fight, which can only mean one thing. You will inevitably lose.
Are you just visiting Florida? For how long?

Your last paragraph I think say's quite a bit about you and your stance. Certainly sounds judgemental to me.
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      05-23-2013, 01:01 AM   #47
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British government calls it "Terrorism" an act of terror, they also went on and said "we do not tolerate these acts like these and it will not go unpunished" Have we heard similar words before in the past... George Bush speech after 911 "war on terror" and Obama the Bangazi incident , terrorist attacking government officials. Is Britain starting up its own FALSE FLAG terror attacks, I mean America has been doing there own for years now. Its always religious motivated , to keep citizens in fear . NO WHERE IS THERE ANY PROOF THESE MEN WERE EVEN MUSLIM. Propaganda.
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      05-23-2013, 02:01 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by TK-421 View Post
Specially armed police - because the retarded government over there doesn't arm their normal police.
It's not the 'retarded' Government as you call it, it's the British Police that don't wish to be armed other than specialist firearms teams.
The Governments through the years have always said IF the majority of the UK Police officers vote to be armed they will support that decision.
However, the vast majority of officers continue to vote to be not routinely armed.
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      05-23-2013, 05:30 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Sam335ix View Post
Theses guys are Somalians
No they arn't.

You don't need to be a rocket scientist to see they are not.

As I said earlier, they are clearly West African origin, not East African. This has been subsequently confirmed after I posted that, in that the guy seen in the video holding the meat cleaver in his blood stained hands and ranting at the camera is of Nigerian background.

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Originally Posted by Sam335ix View Post
What pisses me off is all of those c suckers called men standing there doing nothing and watching this shit go down(by standers)!! I cc, you damn better know I would be getting involved to save that mans life. Shame on those standing by and doing nothing.
Sadly, we arn't even allowed to own a handgun let alone CC one.

And, the UK political culture of the past several decades has been specifically to encourage people NOT to get involved....plus the fact that, when people have got involved they've ended up being prosecuted themselves for 'harming' the nice criminal
Yesterday, you saw the result of our wrapped up in cotton wool liberal aspeasement society that we now have in the UK...........
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      05-23-2013, 06:00 AM   #50
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The US didn't "Help" any of these countries
The us backed the Taliban, so the soviets wouldn't control it
The is helped saddam, so the Iranians wouldn't win the war
The us picks sides for its own benefit
Not out of the goodness of their heart
The war in Afghanistan is now what a decade old?
Is the average afghani in ths street any better off?
I doubt it
I have a few Iraqi friends at work, and they all agree that after the Iraqi invasion
Sure it's nice to get rid of saddam Hussein
But the country was totally destroyed to accomplish this task
It's like me coming to get rid of roaches in your house, by burning it down
Guess who profited the most from afg/Iraq wars?

I also find it very interesting that the 2 supposedly biggest threats to the US were both created by the us
Saddam, and Osama
Both were funded, and became who they are, with the help of the US

And please spare me the saddam was a dictator crap
Because I can list at least 50 other dictators that the us deals with on a regular basis
It just happens that these countires don't have oil
Pure coincidence I am sure

US foreign policy sucks now
And it has sucked for countless decades
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      05-23-2013, 06:31 AM   #51
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regardless of all this, lets all hope and pray that the poor guy died after being hit by the car, and was spared the pain of being hacked to death.
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      05-23-2013, 08:45 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
The US didn't "Help" any of these countries
The us backed the Taliban, so the soviets wouldn't control it
The U.S. is trying to help these countries. It just doesn't get on the media because it isnít a good enough story. America provides aid to more countries than you think. Afghanistan and Iraq just have people that are trying to fight as America provides aid.

The U.S. backed the Mujahedeen, not the Taliban. They are 2 different groups with different ideas for how Afghanistan should be.



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Originally Posted by Torxist View Post
You're going to tell me "shut up" because you did a tour in Afghanistan which you think makes you are an expert on Islam and the region? HA This is part of your overall problem. This inate arrogance and hubris which makes you think you are always right and the rest of the world is wrong
I only talk about Afghanistan because that is where I have personal experience and that is what I have studied the most. I didn't just go over there not knowing anything about the culture or the history, I did as much research as possible. I also kept my post short because often no one reads long drawn out posts, this one is different.

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Originally Posted by Torxist View Post
I might simply tell you to respect your elders since I have at least 4 decades on you and served in the military for 3 of them. But I wager respect is not a word in your vocabulary, neither is humility.
You would be surprised. You have my respect, not only as an elder member of society, but as a combat veteran. That is something that few understand.

You've mentioned numerous times, and you are not alone in this, about how America invaded the Middle East looking for WMDs after 9/11. America going to Iraq to look for WMDs is not the same thing as America going to Afghanistan to look for Bin Laden. These were 2 separate wars that happened at the same time. The invasion of Iraq had been building for some time before Sept. 2001, and the attack on U.S. soil was enough to get the majority of Americans on board with going over there.

People need to stop linking Iraq with 9/11 like 9/11 was the only reason we went to Iraq. Saddam had WMDs, if you donít believe this then you don't know history. He used gas to attack the Kurds in the late 80s. You don't make WMDs for a single attack and not stock pile. Saddam knew we were coming to look for them, and he had enough time as he was stalling the UN to move everything out of Iraq. It has been reported that Syria has used gas attacks recently, guess where they got them?

Both wars in Iraq and Afghanistan started out with certain intentions and then changed later on. In Afghanistan we started to look for Bin Laden, but after awhile the focus changed. Did you ever notice that for a long time the media never talked about Afghanistan around 2004-2007? The media only focused on Iraq, but we had never left Afghanistan though. While we were and still are there fighting the Taliban, America is also trying to help the Afghan people.

While in Afghanistan, America realized that after we helped fight off the Soviets we didnít help rebuild the country. A lot of Afghans had resentment for this so we started, and are continuing, to try and help rebuild. A big problem with that plan is that the Taliban does not want us to help rebuild Afghanistan as they're plans for Afghanistan is that everyone should be living as they did in the 1400s. The root of the Taliban, Mullah Mohammed Omar, wants Sharia law where Afghans are without technology, women have no rights, and are against the ways of "the West". While I was in Afghanistan the people who were attacking us weren't even from that city, they were Pakistani, and outside fighters coming to attack us. They didn't just attack Americans or other military forces that were there. We had to clean up many attacks on civilians living in the area. These attacks on the civilian population made a lot of people move away. This made it hard for us to help rebuild what the Taliban had destroyed. We did our share of destruction too, but we tried as much as possible to not do damage to any places that were being inhabited.

One thing I have to point out too is about drones. The media was supposed to stop using the term "drone" a long time ago. They are unmanned aerial vehicles. The term drone implies that they are autonomous and then people are led to believe they just fly around killing whoever they want. This couldnít be further from the truth. When a UAV attack occurs there is significant intelligence and surveillance gathered before anything is fired. A team of legal officers has to review all the footage of the group or individual before they are allowed to fire. As much care is put in as possible to avoid collateral damage. If it even looks like innocent people are nearby they are not given permission to fire.

In Iraq our focus was to find WMDs and get Saddam out of power. The media reported that no WMDs were found, but just because they were never told anything was found, does that mean nothing was found? Yes, politically it doesn't make sense that the media could possibly have not been told that anything was found and therefore everyone hates Bush for it, but there could be reasons for this. So then why did we go after Saddam when we don't go after other dictators? Probably because it was thought he was an easier target and they had a more legitimate reason to go into the country.

After this however we tried to help rebuild the country. We still were getting opposition, but that wasn't from the local people or Saddam's military as much as it was from outside fighters coming to attack Americans. America poured millions of dollars into rebuilding Iraq, but a lot of it was taken for granted. There was a story of a hospital that was being built, and millions of dollars worth of hospital equipment were delivered. Less than a week later the place had been looted and all the equipment was gone. That doesn't help either side in getting the mission accomplished. How would you feel if you tried to build a house for a neighbor who lost their house in a fire, then someone from the neighbor's family came and stole all the appliances while the house was being built? You wouldn't want to help much anymore, and they would be upset that you arenít helping and that they donít have what they need.
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      05-23-2013, 09:09 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torxist View Post
It's precisely this attitude which keeps perpetuating the violence.

What do you expect? A vastly superior force invades their countries, destroys their towns, disrespects their citizens, and you don't expect them to act animalistic????

And for what? Bush's stupidity in convincing the world that these people have WMDs and they are the reason for every terror attack that occurs in the world.

Let's see what you would do if some foriegn army invaded Fayetteville?

The war in the Middle East was wrong and history will prove it to be wrong, just as it did with Vietnam.
So let me get this straight, you are justifying this terrorist attack/killing and others like it all over the world because of US foreign policy????!

Your veiled anti-American rhetoric and placing blame on the US and its' alies for the terrorist attacks/killings by Muslim extremists all over the world is nothing short of a pathetic attempt at spreading your anti-American ideological views.

For better or worse, our soldiers defend our country's freedoms so people like you can sit behind their pc somewhere in FL and spout your nonsense without fear of reprisal.
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      05-23-2013, 09:41 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Torxist View Post
I stated I was an ex-pat, for English being my second language I think I write fairly well. In my haste to write, I may have substitued a few "your for our"

That aside it interesting with all thats being dicussed here you choose to focus on the most trivial and draw a silly inference that has no basis in fact.

I live in Florida I am a Naturalized US citizen. Have I passed your moral inquistion?

EDIT: I also stated that I think these wars were wrong. "You" (The US) have made a mess of the whole region with these campaigns. (is my way of stating this was not a decision I supported).
Don't give me that BS. You chose your words well and knew exactly what you were saying. All of your posts are clear and show you're well educated...And again you chose to use "You" (The US) instead of "Us" or "We" (The US)-- just after stating you're a Naturalized US citizen.

I don't think that what you've stated is trivial at all. In fact, it almost sounds like recruitment to me. I serve my Country in Uniform and yes, I take it personal when someone says I/we/us/America will lose.
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      05-23-2013, 10:25 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Team Plutonium View Post
Just a quick note regrading american foreign policy viewed by a German (me), and in response to humanitarian aid offered by the US.

May I remind the cynics here that Europe watched the genocide in Serbia on television for years while we were living 2 hours away. Europe did nothing! The US stepped in and stopped the senseless slaughter of thousands of muslims. No oil was involved, they went against the majority of the UN, and they did that to stop bloodshed. Only after their intervention did Nato sent out Tornado bombers to take out serbian bases.

In regards to Somalia. Again, it was an UN resolution to help with the hunger crises in a country ravaged by civil war. I was deployed with the Bundeswehr (Gebirsgjaeger unit) to protect engineer corps building wells, with strict orders not to engage unless fired upon. The US was there after a UN resolution was passed as well... and again, it had nothing to do with imperialism but to help.

I've seen tons of compassion within my unit and US units, and I think it would serve some people well here to think about that before saying US foreign policy is terrible over the last decades. It's just not true.

All those wonderful liberal countries in Europe are happy to discuss the plight of third world countries in countless UN sessions, and even watch a full-blown genocide within their borders and doing nothing about it.

I think the muslim community should remember Serbia once in a while, and think about who came to the rescue.
Some great points!

Thank you for standing along side our country and our soilders in war or in service during a time of need.
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      05-23-2013, 10:40 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Sam335ix View Post
Time for us to stop aiding others and let them kill each other. You want peace? Stay the f out of the crazies way of life and take care of our own. Natural disaster relief is fine, but if two nations want to wipe each other off the face of the earth then let them. By helping one or getting involved only creates enemies which we end up paying for a decade or two later. I know what I am suggesting will never happen in mankinds future.... Now I am going to stfu and dream about my M3 2014 euro delivery lol.
While I'm not American, I'm not too fussed about their apparent interest in policing the world...it could be worse.

Here's the problem with your above theory of "stop aiding others and let them kill each other".

Remember the Nazi's? That's the same attitude others (not in Europe) had. And that complacent attitude allowed Hitler to get more power, and soon, he was a real force to be reckoned with.

So the way I see it, there's probably always going to be a "police" person in the world. And I think it could be worse countries doing that job than the States, so I'm ok with the current situation
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      05-23-2013, 11:54 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by cssnms View Post
For better or worse, our soldiers defend our country's freedoms so people like you can sit behind their pc somewhere in FL and spout your nonsense without fear of reprisal.
that's probably the biggest lie americans are taught to believe

no actually
your military fights wars for political/economic reasons
you mean to tell me that vietnam was a threat to the liberties of US Citizens?
when did Saddam threaten the freedoms of the US?
the biggest theat to the freedoms you have is your own government, my friend

foreign countries are not the ones who can monitor my email without a warrant
foreign countries are not the ones who can monitor my phone calls and text messages
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      05-23-2013, 11:59 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Nate4641 View Post
The U.S. is trying to help these countries. It just doesn't get on the media because it isnít a good enough story. America provides aid to more countries than you think. Afghanistan and Iraq just have people that are trying to fight as America provides aid.

The U.S. backed the Mujahedeen, not the Taliban. They are 2 different groups with different ideas for how Afghanistan should be.
actually the taliban movement grew out of the former mujahideen

irrespective, the US was not helping either one
it was backing the movement that was fighting the russians
it could have been moonies, or midget, or or whatever
if you were against the russians, you were on their good side

and of course i exclude foreign aid from this topic
i've been living here for over 8 years, and that is probably the best thing about the Americans, and a little less so the government.
i mean the countries that the US helped by bombing them
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      05-23-2013, 12:35 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
The US didn't "Help" any of these countries
The us backed the Taliban, so the soviets wouldn't control it
Er... What? In 2013 you are still continuing to parrot the official US propaganda from the 1980's - the embarrassment, which can probably barely be tolerated even by the most devout zealots of the US regime.

Taliban was organized, armed, trained and supported by CIA about 5 years before the Soviet invasion. It was created with the purpose of carrying out terrorist attacks against Soviet borders. Once the attacks began, USSR responded in 1979 with the one of the most well-known and successful anti-terrorist operations in human history. The 1979 Soviet counter-terrorism operation in Afghanistan in universally praised by the Free World as one of the greatest services USSR performed for the mankind. (I've seen some people even compare it to the Soviet victory in WWII, even tough I personally don't see it as a valid comparison.)

The dubious legacy of the role USA played back then in Afghanistan is clearly seen today: USA is the universally recognized as a top terrorist supporting country in the world, with no prospect of being allowed to join the Free World in any foreseeable future.

Last edited by AndreyT; 05-23-2013 at 12:48 PM.
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      05-23-2013, 12:37 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
that's probably the biggest lie americans are taught to believe

no actually
your military fights wars for political/economic reasons
you mean to tell me that vietnam was a threat to the liberties of US Citizens?
when did Saddam threaten the freedoms of the US?
the biggest theat to the freedoms you have is your own government, my friend

foreign countries are not the ones who can monitor my email without a warrant
foreign countries are not the ones who can monitor my phone calls and text messages
Do you think I was born yesterday? Did you come to all of those conclusions before or after you moved to our country 8 year ago? In any event, you keep telling yourself that our military is just a political tool. Without our Constitution and the good men and women in uniform we would not enjoy the freedoms we have today.

Our military is here to protect our land and our freedoms from ever encroaching threats. If you do not believe those threats exist then you are naive to say the least. I am not going to sit here and slice-and-dice every decision made by our government to engage our troops in combat and pretend I know the motives behind those decisions, but for you to sit here and play armchair intelligence analyst and pontificate after the fact is disingenuous at best.

Like it or not, the reality is our intelligence community and more importantly that of our allies had credible evidence to suggest that Saddam Hussein was a viable threat to our nation and our allies. You can make whatever you want out of it. In retrospect was it a good idea, I am not so sure... Did we rid a country of a brutal dictator and murderer, yes. Was it well executed, no. Was the collective decision made to invade Iraq made without thought of political consequences or motives, likely not.

In any event, you and I can agree on one thing to an extent, that corrupt, power hungry career politicians running our government and making policies that try to further diminish our rights is a threat - it always has been which is why among other things our founding Fathers created the 2nd Amendment.

Last edited by cssnms; 05-23-2013 at 12:58 PM.
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      05-23-2013, 12:51 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torxist View Post
Reading comp isn't your strong suit is it?

I have stated repeatedly and bolded and capitalized so that individuals as you could see I am not trying to justify anything, merely tried to explain what drives these actions.

The rest of your post is crap and will not waste time addressing it. I have spent more time in battle then you have probably been on this earth.
Trust that my reading comprehension skills are just fine. I clearly read between the lines - your message was loud and clear, despite your attempts to back-peddle. It would be a mistake to assume you know your audiance. You continue to remind everyone about your military experience as if to suggest that makes you an authority on the subject of foreign policy.

And quite frankly I do not care how much time you spent in "battle" as it relates to this discussion. If you are of the mindset that your life experiences precludes your views from being criticized you are mistaken. You justifications for murders committed by Muslim extremists and anti-American rhetoric is offensive.
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      05-23-2013, 01:05 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
your military fights wars for political/economic reasons
All wars in the entire human history were fought for political/economic reasons. Even fighting for survival is an economic reason. Cop out answer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
you mean to tell me that vietnam was a threat to the liberties of US Citizens?
Vietnam itself wasn't. But the Soviet expansion in Southeast Asia through a North Vietnamese/Soviet puppet dictator potentially was.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
when did Saddam threaten the freedoms of the US?
This is your better argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
the biggest theat to the freedoms you have is your own government, my friend
Another cop out answer. The government grants freedoms and can take them away (through process of law). By definition, any loss of freedom is always the result of government action.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
foreign countries are not the ones who can monitor my email without a warrant.
foreign countries are not the ones who can monitor my phone calls and text messages
No, the US government cannot willy-nilly monitor e-mails, phone calls or texts. Either they need a warrant (probable cause) or in some cases a subpoena (reasonable possibility standard). If at the lower standard for a subpoena, you can challenge the validity before the search takes place.

Plus, other countries monitor their citizen's e-mails, phone calls and texts. For example, UK does it. China does it. Pretty sure N. Korea does it. So, yeah, if you e-mail your friend in the UK, China or N. Korea, I'm pretty sure those countries can monitor your e-mails without a warrant.
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      05-23-2013, 01:18 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Torxist View Post
Its time to take off the training wheels and let these countries get back to some measure of self-governance. This will restore pride and hurt feelings all around. Granted the US must always maintain watch but they need to balance their need for security with these nations' ability to be autonomous.
Isn't it what we're trying to do in Iraq and Afghanistan? And Egypt and Libya (and all these new African countries that went down the shitter soon after gaining independence) is a proof w/o Western involvement they can't do much except sliding into medieval ages?
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      05-23-2013, 01:19 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
that's probably the biggest lie americans are taught to believe

no actually
your military fights wars for political/economic reasons
you mean to tell me that vietnam was a threat to the liberties of US Citizens?
when did Saddam threaten the freedoms of the US?
the biggest theat to the freedoms you have is your own government, my friend

foreign countries are not the ones who can monitor my email without a warrant
foreign countries are not the ones who can monitor my phone calls and text messages
Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
actually the taliban movement grew out of the former mujahideen

irrespective, the US was not helping either one
it was backing the movement that was fighting the russians
it could have been moonies, or midget, or or whatever
if you were against the russians, you were on their good side

and of course i exclude foreign aid from this topic
i've been living here for over 8 years, and that is probably the best thing about the Americans, and a little less so the government.
i mean the countries that the US helped by bombing them
Quote:
Originally Posted by Torxist View Post
+1.

This rhoteric of always justifying every US campaign by saying its to protect our freedom is tired. When was the last campaign fought on US soil? Who in the world has the ability to launch any campaign that would genuinely undermine US freedom. It's just a justification when we say we are there to protect US freedoms.

NO, US is there to advance their own foriegn policies and agenda. Let's get real already
Both of you guys spout off a ton of stuff as if it's fact when it's just your opinion. Neither of you know what effects and or real reasons the US and other countries are doing or have done in these conflicts. You shouldn't discount helping a nation defend itself just because it aligns with their political agenda. Thats like you being attached a gang and not being appreciative of the rival gang showing up to take them on. Regardless of motive, you have the rival gang to thank for your life.

You think Vietnam was a failure. The goal was to stop communism from rolling through the middle east and Europe. Seems successful. You think that ousting Saddam was oil motivated. Ask some neighboring countries who remember WWII from an occupied status if they are also happy to see him gone.

The only difference between helping the Afgans or repelling the Russians is that once the Russians were repelled we packed up our aid. If helping them was our sole motivation we would have helped set up a new government. However, i bet they would have wanted us to just leave. So we did what you are suggesting by taking the training wheels off and look what happened. And the dreaded Taliban was dreaded by it's own countrymen long before any common American knew they existed. Either way, without the help of the US, Afghanistan likely wouldn't be here today. You don't have to look far back in time to see the US opting to stay out of wars. December 1941 is when that changed. You can clearly see a preemptive attitude develop from that point on. Good or bad, that strategy seems to have been successful at keeping everyone out of another World War. It only took 21 years for WWII to break out after WWI. Yet once the US "world police" were put in effect, it's been 68 years since that scale of conflict has come about. Helping the Afgans push back the Russians while contributing to their collapse, may very well have averted WWIII or worse, nuclear war. Pretty selfish indeed.

Governments aren't all that different than the common man. Most of what man does is in his own best interest. ALL governments are made of man. All of the liberal nations watching heinous acts happening in neighboring states that Team Plutonium spoke of did nothing because it was in their best interest. I'm assuming that neither of you can proclaim all your actions are selfless. I am assuming that both of you, like most everyone else in this world, have your own interests at heart most of the time. The US freedoms and way of life is threatened by the spread of evil people getting into power around the world. So yes, our boys are fighting for our freedoms. But more than that, by ousting those who rule their people with and iron fist and threaten other states in the region, they are fighting for the ideal of free people around the world. Say what you will, but nobody taught me to believe this. Our forces may have someone at the top selfishly pointing the direction for our boys to go in, but the vast majority of those men and women in the field want those who they are helping to know the freedom that they themselves signed on to defend.
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      05-23-2013, 01:33 PM   #65
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Vietnam itself wasn't. But the Soviet expansion in Southeast Asia through a North Vietnamese/Soviet puppet dictator potentially was.
This relies on the dubious claim that "Soviet expansion in Southeast Asia" was somehow a bad thing. This is, of course, can be seen as true only inside the isolated realm of US propaganda mythology. In other words, it is no different from any other bizarre mental concoctions criminals often make to "justify" their crimes.

In the real world there was simply no perception of any issue with "Soviet expansion in Southeast Asia", which is exactly what in the Free World the US war against VietNam is perceived as a high crime against humanity.

(Another well-known example of the same deranged reasoning is the justifications some US regime zealots come up with for nuclear tests over Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The list can be easily continued.)

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The government grants freedoms and can take them away (through process of law). By definition, any loss of freedom is always the result of government action.
False. The above statement only applies to authoritarian regimes, i.e. governments that rely on brute force as their means of exercising control. It does not work with indoctrinating regimes - a completely different and much more sinister model of governments.

Take USA as the best-known example of a successful indoctrinating regime. Historians and scientists agree that in the 1940's-1950's the process of total indoctrination in USA was still underway. That was the period when the "loss of freedom" in USA was indeed "the result of government action" (or inaction, or stupidity) to a certain degree. However, they also agree that by the middle of the 1960's the process was complete and the USA acquired sustained self-replicating properties as an isolated indoctrinated society. At that point the role of the traditional "government" in USA shrunk to absolute nothing.

Basically, people trapped in the US propaganda dome are not deprived of their freedoms "by the government" anymore. They are deprived of their freedom by (speaking figuratively) their "genetic makeup", biological and/or social. In other words the absence of freedom in USA is not imposed by an external force, it is bred internally, right inside people's heads. The very parts of human makeup that are responsible for the capacity for freedom have been surgically removed from their heads and thrown into a bucket. Americans are simply incapable of being free anymore, regardless of any "government". Moreover, what you perceive as "US government" is actually a victim of the same disfiguring damages as any other regular Joe.

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No, the US government cannot willy-nilly monitor e-mails, phone calls or texts. Either they need a warrant (probable cause) or in some cases a subpoena (reasonable possibility standard). If at the lower standard for a subpoena, you can challenge the validity before the search takes place.
Firstly, this is, of course, known for a fact to be naive and laughably false. Secondly, you are again trying to make a mistake of mixing indoctrinating regimes and authoritarian regimes. The necessity for massive monitoring is an exclusive property of authoritarian regimes. Indoctrinating regimes also do that, but to a significantly lesser quantitative degree. Take USA again as an example. 95% of US population are essentially indoctrinated appliances, which do not really need to be monitored. They are operating in accordance with a very well known program. Their actions are predictable in advance for as far ahead as their entire lifetimes. There's nothing to monitor here. Only about 5% of the US population, who still retain their normal human qualities (note: different scientists in the Free World have different opinions about the true percentage of normal humans in USA, so I'll still to the "average" value of 5%) have to be monitored. And these 5% are monitored by the US regime with such extreme, uninterrupted and focused attention that no authoritarian regime in the world ever though of achieving.

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      05-23-2013, 01:50 PM   #66
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I'll be honest, I don’t do shit to protect anyone's freedoms in the states. I'm aware of it, most service members are. WWII was about protecting American freedoms. Most conflicts since have not been. I didn't go to Afghanistan to make sure you have freedom of speech. That is a load of shit. I went to war, and I get my freedoms and rights to own firearms stripped down by a state that takes tons of money from me in taxes even though I don’t physically live there.

What we are doing in Afghanistan is more humanitarian for them. We are also trying to fight the drug trade coming out of the region. An extremely large portion of the heroin in the world comes from Afghanistan. One of our campaigns is trying to get the locals to switch to different crops from poppy. It’s hard because the Taliban are the ones who are collecting the product and paying the people. If they don't grow poppy they risk not having money to eat, or being taken by the Taliban.

Also keep in mind, the ONLY reason the Viet Cong "won" the war is because a bunch of hippies in the states made such an uproar about the war and the polititans pulled the American forces out. America was advancing and the death toll was significantly more on the VC side. What made us leave is so many people who didn't know what was going on running their mouth about something they only got information about from the media who only told them what they wanted to.

The same thing is happening with Afghanistan and Iraq. Although if you study Afghanistan's history it isn’t hard to believe that even if we eradicated the Taliban completely it would only be a matter of time before someone else who has the guns, a strong opinion and a way to talk to the people, would take over and start another conflict that could draw us back in.

The Afghan people are extremely strong willed. The fact they have never been conquered is a testament to that. Why you would fight someone trying to help you join the modern world with technology that makes life more enjoyable and want to live in mud huts is beyond me though.
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