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      05-24-2013, 12:24 PM   #89
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I still would love to hear an answer why no Muslim country was helping to prevent the ethnic cleansing and genocide in Serbia and Bosnia.
What "ethnic cleansing and genocide"? All those highly advertised by the US propaganda cases against various "war criminals" involved in alleged "ethnic cleansing and genocide" fell apart one after another by now. Of course, the fact that these cases flopped are not so highly advertised by the US mass media.

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But the "US bully" did. Turkey was pretty close.... US soldiers would die to protect innocent Muslim lives, Muslim terrorist seek out innocent civilians to murder. Go ahead and argue that one away.
Oh, phuuulease... "US soldiers would die to protect innocent Muslim lives"... How old are you?

US involvement in Kosovo had one and only one purpose - an indirect attack on Russia ans its allies. The Nazi criminals that came to power in USA after the WWII are simply not wanting to give up. That's basically the primary factor that has been defining the post-WWII history of the world and post-WWII history of USA. There's nothing else to it.

You can see the importance of all that for US regime on a much more recent example. In the recent years USA has demonstrated considerable progress on the path to civilization, away from the brown swamp of Fascism this country has been steadily sinking into. It even reached the point where world leaders began to consider the possibility of admitting USA as a member of Civilized World. Yet the US threw it all away in a heartbeat when they decided to openly support the terrorists in Syria. Why? See the answer above.

Last edited by AndreyT; 05-24-2013 at 12:49 PM.
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      05-24-2013, 03:32 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by AndreyT View Post
What "ethnic cleansing and genocide"? All those highly advertised by the US propaganda cases against various "war criminals" involved in alleged "ethnic cleansing and genocide" fell apart one after another by now. Of course, the fact that these cases flopped are not so highly advertised by the US mass media.



Oh, phuuulease... "US soldiers would die to protect innocent Muslim lives"... How old are you?

US involvement in Kosovo had one and only one purpose - an indirect attack on Russia ans its allies. The Nazi criminals that came to power in USA after the WWII are simply not wanting to give up. That's basically the primary factor that has been defining the post-WWII history of the world and post-WWII history of USA. There's nothing else to it.

You can see the importance of all that for US regime on a much more recent example. In the recent years USA has demonstrated considerable progress on the path to civilization, away from the brown swamp of Fascism this country has been steadily sinking into. It even reached the point where world leaders began to consider the possibility of admitting USA as a member of Civilized World. Yet the US threw it all away in a heartbeat when they decided to openly support the terrorists in Syria. Why? See the answer above.
Will someone please adjust this guys tin foil hat for him. Please note the northern CA location. I believe that area is famous for WEED and it seems he must use it constantly.
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      05-24-2013, 04:08 PM   #91
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Oh, you are one of those. :
Yeah, a human. But who cares? We all are "one of those" here. No need to repeat the obvious banalities.

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I feel bad for the other posters here who actually provided some points to this discussion, you just discredited yourself by these statements, and highlighted the fact that you are a crazy person.
Sorry, but you are not really in position to announce anyone's "discredit" here. Please, stick to the standard issue nomenclature of "tin foil hat", "weed" and "crazy" references.

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Btw, the US media didn't spent much time covering the ethnic cleansing, it was the European media. Sounds to me you are very casual about the death of thousands innocent Muslims. That's just shameful.
Really? No, US media spent a lot of time covering the alleged "crimes" that supposedly justified that war. The only reason you are trying to distantiate yourself from that "coverage" now is that the "facts" presented back then has been also picked apart and definitively proven as fabricated lies by now. In other words, Kosovo was played in accordance with the same mechanical algorithm all other American criminal wars were played in accordance with.
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      05-24-2013, 04:21 PM   #92
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[quote=AndreyT;14047357]What "ethnic cleansing and genocide"? All those highly advertised by the US propaganda cases against various "war criminals" involved in alleged "ethnic cleansing and genocide" fell apart one after another by now. Of course, the fact that these cases flopped are not so highly advertised by the US mass media.

You honestly can't be serious!

If you’re trying to generate humor it's not working, but something tells me that in your own twisted way, you've convinced yourself that you’re correct.

I saw first-hand the effects of genocide in the Balkans and it was very real. As a US Infantry Company Commander I met hundreds of Bosnians that weathered through nearly four years of brutal war that had fathers, mothers, and children killed because of ethnicity. Neighbors that turned on each other, Croats, Serbs, and Bosniaks that were civil one day and deadly enemies the next. I met the widows and fatherless children of Srebrenica and it was a sorrowful event. So unless you have some proof of your claim I can only say, STFU!

Apparently you've never served this great country in uniform. Thank God there are better men than you who have and will in the future. Over the past decade there are thousands of Soldiers that have died...in fact each that died in Iraq and Afghanistan loosely did so for Muslims by extension of their mission. Whether it was in pursuit of UBL in Afghanistan, Muqtada al-Sadr in Iraq, or building a school in Baghdad just to have it blown up by insurgents the day before it opened, they died doing their jobs, day and night, to accomplish their unit's mission and protect the vulnerable people.

How fitting on this Memorial Day weekend to reflect on those comrades who gave their life not only to ensure our freedoms and the blessings of liberty, but also to contribute to a better world. Remember, Soldiers don't get to pick the war they want to fight, it's chosen by politicians. Lastly, each of my buddies that were killed in action I believe had no regrets in order to allow you to have your opinion. I hope you remember that as you spew your crap...some of my closest friends died so you can shit talk.
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      05-24-2013, 05:13 PM   #93
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No it's not, it's only beneficial to the US, its allies and their interests. US could care less about what was good for the region. The US has been manipulating the situation in the Middle East for decades. The video showing how they blatantly installed the Shah of Iran is EXACTLY what set this whole movement of Isalmic fundamentalism into motion.

This was not unique to the Shah, the British had installed a monarch in Egypt pre 1956 for just this same reason. Only in this case it was not oil they were trying to control but the Suez Canal, until of course it was Nationalized by Nasr in the 1956 revoultion. Thankfully for Egypt that was a secular revolution.

Saudia Arabia, Kuwait and other gulf states have been puppets of the US since the discovery of oil in the region and the only reason there hasn't been chaos there is that these gov'ts bribe their citizens with stipends.

The bottom line is the US through it's constant meddling in the Middle East has set into motion the issues which we now face today with this fanaticism.
Okay, now some facts and background:

-Nasr was a stooge of the Soviets not the US. Sadat likewise was more puppet of the Soviets than the US. All the major arms that the Egyptians used were Soviet not US. How is Egypt a stooge of the US…perhaps Mubarrak was a bit, but if he was a stooge, why didn’t the US support him in his time of need…oh, we didn’t. Now we have to deal with the MB and now there’s buyer’s remorse in Egypt. What’s the next chapter? I don’t see the US moving quickly to interfere there. As I heard it said before, “inaction is action”. You have a clear lack of understanding in International Relations, maybe I’m wrong. Nation-States act in their own best interests…sorry to break the news, but this has been going on for centuries and not only by the US.

-Radical Islam dates back to the 18th Century with Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab…long before the US had “imperial intentions”. I don’t believe that the Ayatollah’s return to Iran and the removal of the Shah served as the catalyst that sparked the problems of the Middle East. The problems of the ME are much deeper and complex than you state…I’m sure you know that because it appears you’re of Arab ethnicity. A good example of US un-resolve that breaks your paradigm is the 1983 Marine barracks attack in Lebanon. President Reagan didn’t respond by going after Lebanese Hezbollah, he pulled out and never returned. An honorable effort by the US to conduct peace support during the Lebanese Civil War was reciprocated by terror. The US left soon after…sounds a lot like Somalia. A great book, The Age of Sacred Terror, details the rise of radical Islam’s war against America.

-I would hardly call the KSA and Kuwait American puppets. Having actually spent some time in KSA and learning a lot about the culture and political settings, I don’t think that your claim is anywhere near being a correct assertion. In fact, I would say that the opposite is more toward accuracy. Only in the respect that Europe is more dependent on ME oil than the US…we actually import most of ours from Canada and Venezuela than the ME. However, since we live in an interdependent world where the economic effects in the EU have resounding impacts in the US, it’s in the US best interests to pay deference to the royals to prevent economic shock. Again, states act in their best interest…many times these interests overlap with other states. Last time I checked the oil in Arabia is controlled by the state run oil company – Saudi Aramco, not Exxon, Shell, etc..

-Constant meddling in the ME has resulted in some issues, but to blame all the problems in the ME on the US is an absurdity. There have been problems in the ME since Hammurabi…again, it didn’t start with the US and the claim is a total cop out to point and deflect blame. Fortunately, there are Arabs in the ME that don’t deflect blame and take the issue straight on and are working to resolve these issues and make the region better for their posterity. Unfortunately, many of those brave men and women are murdered. I point to the young Pakistani girl Malala, who was shot by the taliban for her “radical ideas”. And I ask sir, how is this the fault of the US.

-Please don’t try to paint me as an ethno-centric American who doesn’t understand the culture…I’ve got more time in the ME that I could be technically classified as a Bedouin.
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      05-24-2013, 05:19 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Torxist View Post
No it's not, it's only beneficial to the US, its allies and their interests. US could care less about what was good for the region. The US has been manipulating the situation in the Middle East for decades. The video showing how they blatantly installed the Shah of Iran is EXACTLY what set this whole movement of Isalmic fundamentalism into motion.

This was not unique to the Shah, the British had installed a monarch in Egypt pre 1956 for just this same reason. Only in this case it was not oil they were trying to control but the Suez Canal, until of course it was Nationalized by Nasr in the 1956 revoultion. Thankfully for Egypt that was a secular revolution.

Saudia Arabia, Kuwait and other gulf states have been puppets of the US since the discovery of oil in the region and the only reason there hasn't been chaos there is that these gov'ts bribe their citizens with stipends.

The bottom line is the US through it's constant meddling in the Middle East has set into motion the issues which we now face today with this fanaticism.
An alibi,

The genesis of the MB in Eqypt occurred while Nasr and Sadat were stooges of the Soviets. The MB's discontent was aroused by the "godless soviets" not by anything the US was doing in the region.
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      05-24-2013, 05:23 PM   #95
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War brings out the worst in people, you have soldiers with 5 tours, dealing with PTSD, and are desensitized.

I served myself and this above statement is not meant as an excuse, there is none. But it is important to realize that the majority of soldiers within the US armed forces, any branch, will not behave like this, and will condemn these actions. It is an offense that will see that particular soldier court marshaled.
I agree that the disgusting behavior and desensitizing of SOME service members is because of the multiple deployments. You have to ask yourself why are there multiple deployments? The only answer I have is that it isn't a defensive 'war' where you go in, kill your enemy and COME BACK HOME. It's a pre-emptive war we can't win. We can never win. We never have. No Army in the world can kill an idea in someones head. So we keep sending guys and gals overseas to 'fight terrorism'? To fight a guerilla tactic? To wage war against people who 'hate America because we are free'? Does anyone NOT see the lunacy!? 10+ years of war and there are Americans still drunk off the Kool-Aid.

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Alongside with our brother in arms of the US forces we were there on humanitarian mission, backed by a UN mandate, .............. We were under orders not to engage unless fired upon, with the exception of protecting civilian lives when applicable and authorized.
So you find no faults and are not in disagreement when a sovereign country is mandated by the UN to use its standing Army to protect civilians of a foreign country? This same UN that you and I agree is completely useless.

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Blue helmets were the first boots on the ground, but did not engage. In fact they left 8,000 muslims to be slaughtered by Serbian forces: This is just one example.
The following videos are a documentary on Srebrenica made by a Bosnian Muslim. All witnesses Muslim. Everyone should watch because it will show you how absolutely perplexing eastern europe was and is. I know this first hand. My parents are both ethnic Albanians from Montenegro and Kosovo. I was born and raised in NYC served time in Kosovo as a US Marine and then spent an additional 3 years there, after I left the Marines, as a US contractor (translator). I still have close relatives living in Kosovo and visit every so many years. That whole region is still a powder keg. Given the opportunity the majority of people in former Yugoslavia would leave tomorrow. Asked why and they'll all tell you the same thing...... there is no future there. So what did we actually accomplish being there when the majority of the population is literally dying to get out? Hundreds of eastern europeans are caught on the Mexican border attempting to get into this country. Hundred if not THOUSANDS are caught trying to get into Germany as well. Nobody hears about that though.










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Weird that no Jihadist came to their brothers and sisters rescue. It was the US.
Oh but they did and they never left. This is what they've been breeding out there.




I am convinced that our foreign policy is absolutely flawed. Has been for a long time but instead of elected officials fixing mistakes, correcting problems they continue the same flawed policy. Since you mentioned Gen. Clark here is a video of him talking about America's foreign policy.

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      05-24-2013, 05:28 PM   #96
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Wow guys just wanna say this is def the best thread on this forum right now. Incredible amount of information.
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      05-24-2013, 06:58 PM   #97
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Wow guys just wanna say this is def the best thread on this forum right now. Incredible amount of information.
Thank you, I take full credit
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      05-24-2013, 07:27 PM   #98
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In Somalia I took that charge very seriously, we got engaged (tested in a sense) twice, and not for a second did I had any doubts that our actions were justified. Our mission was to save lives, and that we did.

I believe with all my heart that any nation doesn't just have the right to intervene when another country commits atrocities, but has to intervene in the name of humanity.
While YOUR intentions and beliefs are pure the reasons for you being sent there by your government were not. Somalia is another failure of a broken foreign policy. American and foreign lives lost, millions and billions spent and today a Muslim government that was ELECTED BY ITS PEOPLE is fighting to stay in power because Ethiopia and neighboring countries are afraid of its Islamic government. So who do those neighboring countries run to for help fighting this evil muslim government? The US of course and we oblige of course. Once again getting involved in crap we shouldn't be getting involved in.

The founding fathers of this blessed land had it correct. Mind our business, no alliances and trade with everyone good, bad or ugly. If you want to wage war you declare it, fight it and come home. It is so sad to see how far we have veered off course.

"Observe good faith and justice towards all nations; cultivate peace and harmony with all. Religion and morality enjoin this conduct; and can it be, that good policy does not equally enjoin it - It will be worthy of a free, enlightened, and at no distant period, a great nation, to give to mankind the magnanimous and too novel example of a people always guided by an exalted justice and benevolence. Who can doubt that, in the course of time and things, the fruits of such a plan would richly repay any temporary advantages which might be lost by a steady adherence to it ? ...

In the execution of such a plan, nothing is more essential than that permanent, inveterate antipathies against particular nations, and passionate attachments for others, should be excluded; and that, in place of them, just and amicable feelings towards all should be cultivated. The nation which indulges towards another a habitual hatred or a habitual fondness is in some degree a slave. It is a slave to its animosity or to its affection, either of which is sufficient to lead it astray from its duty and its interest. ...

So likewise, a passionate attachment of one nation for another produces a variety of evils. Sympathy for the favorite nation, facilitating the illusion of an imaginary common interest in cases where no real common interest exists, and infusing into one the enmities of the other, betrays the former into a participation in the quarrels and wars of the latter without adequate inducement or justification. ...

As avenues to foreign influence in innumerable ways, such attachments are particularly alarming to the truly enlightened and independent patriot. How many opportunities do they afford to tamper with domestic factions, to practice the arts of seduction, to mislead public opinion, to influence or awe the public councils. Such an attachment of a small or weak towards a great and powerful nation dooms the former to be the satellite of the latter."

"The great rule of conduct for us in regard to foreign nations is in extending our commercial relations, to have with them as little political connection as possible. So far as we have already formed engagements, let them be fulfilled with perfect good faith. Here let us stop. Europe has a set of primary interests which to us have none; or a very remote relation. Hence she must be engaged in frequent controversies, the causes of which are essentially foreign to our concerns. Hence, therefore, it must be unwise in us to implicate ourselves by artificial ties in the ordinary vicissitudes of her politics, or the ordinary combinations and collisions of her friendships or enmities.

Our detached and distant situation invites and enables us to pursue a different course. If we remain one people under an efficient government, the period is not far off when we may defy material injury from external annoyance; when we may take such an attitude as will cause the neutrality we may at any time resolve upon to be scrupulously respected; when belligerent nations, under the impossibility of making acquisitions upon us, will not lightly hazard the giving us provocation; when we may choose peace or war, as our interest, guided by justice, shall counsel.

Why forego the advantages of so peculiar a situation? Why quit our own to stand upon foreign ground? Why, by interweaving our destiny with that of any part of Europe, entangle our peace and prosperity in the toils of European ambition, rivalship, interest, humor or caprice?

It is our true policy to steer clear of permanent alliances with any portion of the foreign world; so far, I mean, as we are now at liberty to do it; for let me not be understood as capable of patronizing infidelity to existing engagements. I hold the maxim no less applicable to public than to private affairs, that honesty is always the best policy. I repeat it, therefore, let those engagements be observed in their genuine sense. But, in my opinion, it is unnecessary and would be unwise to extend them.

Taking care always to keep ourselves by suitable establishments on a respectable defensive posture, we may safely trust to temporary alliances for extraordinary emergencies."

George Washington
Farewell Address
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      05-24-2013, 07:52 PM   #99
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You must be new here. No one cares about founding father quotes here. The standard response i always got when quoting one of them was "things have changed in 200 years!"
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      05-24-2013, 07:54 PM   #100
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You must be new here. No one cares about founding father quotes here. The standard response i always got when quoting one of them was "things have changed in 200 years!"
LMAO!
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      05-24-2013, 08:06 PM   #101
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LMAO!
Seriously, i've tried to use their wisdom in debates before and that's what people say. Franklin, Jefferson, Washington... they want none of it.

I'm typically on board with their opinions even if those opinions are 200 years old. However, this reads like a blue print to move forward from a clean slate and what we've done is taken a wrong turn at Albuquerque some time ago. His advise while sound for self preservation, doesn't necessarily help us from where we are currently.
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      05-24-2013, 08:26 PM   #102
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So on a personal level I couldn't care less what George Washington had to say, or what the US intentions were.
On a personal level I couldn't care less what you did in Somalia or anywhere else for that matter. I don't care how many women were raped, how many were murdered, slaughtered, how many you saved etc etc etc blah blah blah. I'm not trying to be a badass but in the end a person being beheaded in the middle of a street in the UK doesn't affect me here tapping away on my phone. Like I wrote in an earlier post, as long as governments continue to stick their nose in sh!t they will be at war and in war everything goes. There is no greater extreme than war itself.
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      05-24-2013, 08:28 PM   #103
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So on a personal level I couldn't care less what George Washington had to say, or what the US intentions were.
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Seriously, i've tried to use their wisdom in debates before and that's what people say. Franklin, Jefferson, Washington... they want none of it.
MP0WER you called it lol.

You are right when you say we have taken a wrong turn long ago. I honestly don't know where we are headed anymore.
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      05-24-2013, 08:56 PM   #104
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MP0WER you called it lol.

You are right when you say we have taken a wrong turn long ago. I honestly don't know where we are headed anymore.
Of course my rants that call on their wisdom are always about civil liberties and constitutional rights.

I don't want us to turn into China where someone gets hit by a car and no one stops to help that person, nor do i want the world to be that way. When some jack ass dictator blows a gasket and decides to use some nerve gas against the sect of people in his country that are annoying him; other countries who are able need to step in a kick his ass out of power. That shit isn't cool and shouldn't be overlooked for the sake of countries minding their own business.

The problem i see is that we're so far in it with regards to the current state of the world, that if we back out and bring the boys back within our borders, all situations will degrade at an accelerated pace. There will likely be mass conflict some of which resulting in the use of nuclear weapons. I don't know what the solution is, but i feel strongly that it doesn't involve leaving the ME to it's own devices.
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      05-24-2013, 08:58 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Bx Tpr View Post
On a personal level I couldn't care less what you did in Somalia or anywhere else for that matter. I don't care how many women were raped, how many were murdered, slaughtered, how many you saved etc etc etc blah blah blah. I'm not trying to be a badass but in the end a person being beheaded in the middle of a street in the UK doesn't affect me here tapping away on my phone. Like I wrote in an earlier post, as long as governments continue to stick their nose in sh!t they will be at war and in war everything goes. There is no greater extreme than war itself.
You don't care about those things and you expect anyone to listen to you?

Credibility =/= "do as I say, not as I do"

ie. you have none.

(btw, also know as 'hypocrisy')
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      05-24-2013, 09:05 PM   #106
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I don't want us to turn into China where someone gets hit by a car and no one stops to help that person, nor do i want the world to be that way. When some jack ass dictator blows a gasket and decides to use some nerve gas against the sect of people in his country that are annoying him; other countries who are able need to step in a kick his ass out of power. That shit isn't cool and shouldn't be overlooked for the sake of countries minding their own business.
Chinese life is worthless because there are more people than stuff. Deep down inside, the Chinese recognize this, the West has won the material/ideological war and the way forward is alot more western than it is chinese.
But it's probably different with the Arab world because the countries are smaller and fragmented and the US has a foot in there.
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      05-24-2013, 09:40 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by grimlock

You don't care about those things and you expect anyone to listen to you?

Credibility =/= "do as I say, not as I do"

ie. you have none.

(btw, also know as 'hypocrisy')
I don't expect anything and I'm not asking anyone to do anything. These are my opinions. Your opinion is I'm a hypocrite and I have zero credibility. Opinions are like a$$holes buddy boy. Everyone has one.
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      05-24-2013, 09:57 PM   #108
Bx Tpr
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Originally Posted by Torxist

So a nation's sovereignty and autonomy mean nothing? Why does the US decide which leader can stay and which should go? And if the US is going to oust every dictator who violates their people, why stop at Saddam? The world is full of dictators who brutalize their citizens, why is nothing done about them?

These are just pretenses for why the US invaded Iraq. Everyone knows the real reason was for Bush to pin a scapegoat and get some payback for 911; and show the world the US responded to force, with force. Off camera, I guarantee you that the plight of the Kurds factored very little behind the real reason to invade Iraq.

Don’t get me wrong, Saddam was a brutal animal, and deserved what he got, but there is a bigger issue at hand. Why even have individual nations, if they can just be invaded, carved up and left in ruin this way?
+1

A little off topic but I just had someone ask me about sanctions and how effective they are. Very effective when you want to kill without firing a single bullet.

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      05-24-2013, 10:14 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by Bx Tpr View Post
I don't expect anything and I'm not asking anyone to do anything. These are my opinions. Your opinion is I'm a hypocrite and I have zero credibility. Opinions are like a$$holes buddy boy. Everyone has one.
I see you just want to hold on to your 'opinion' and aren't really looking for any truth..
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      05-24-2013, 10:39 PM   #110
Mr Tonka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torxist View Post
So a nation's sovereignty and autonomy mean nothing? Why does the US decide which leader can stay and which should go? And if the US is going to oust every dictator who violates their people, why stop at Saddam? The world is full of dictators who brutalize their citizens, why is nothing done about them?

These are just pretenses for why the US invaded Iraq. Everyone knows the real reason was for Bush to pin a scapegoat and get some payback for 911; and show the world the US responded to force, with force. Off camera, I guarantee you that the plight of the Kurds factored very little behind the real reason to invade Iraq.

Don’t get me wrong, Saddam was a brutal animal, and deserved what he got, but there is a bigger issue at hand. Why even have individual nations, if they can just be invaded, carved up and left in ruin this way?
Oddly enough i had nothing what you said in mind when writing that. I didn't say that the US got to decide either. I said other countries able to help should do so.

I'm sorry, if you're helpless and getting the shit kicked out of you i'm game for helping you. I think the same should hold true on all scales. We as people, as nations, as a society should help those who can't help themselves. The world is a community on a large scale. Shouldn't communities lookout for each other? Or are you saying that the middle east, N Korea, etc.. are the shitty neighborhoods that no one should pay any attention to? Then again, on a small scale we all just assume the police will keep everything tidy in those bad neighborhoods.

Are you cool with dictators killing 10s of or even 100s of thousands of "their" people for.... i don't know, convenience? You don't think someone should step in and protect those helpless people? Is it not bad enough that these people were living in poverty (and not American poverty either) due to their leader while no one on the outside cares enough to do anything? We already diem that acceptable, i suppose the next step is for all of us to be ok with genocide. No?
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