E90Post
 


 
BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Technical Forums > Tracking, Autocrossing, Dragstrip, Driving Techniques > Next upgrade recommendation



Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      11-27-2013, 07:39 PM   #1
odariel
Private First Class
odariel's Avatar
Spain
3
Rep
136
Posts

Drives: M3 DKG
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Spain

iTrader: (1)

Next upgrade recommendation

what suspension / lsd do you recomend?

Last edited by odariel; 04-14-2014 at 02:55 PM.
Appreciate 0
      11-27-2013, 10:13 PM   #2
DallasBoosted
Captain
DallasBoosted's Avatar
17
Rep
864
Posts

Drives: '08 E92 335i
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Dallas

iTrader: (3)

Garage List
2008 BMW 335i  [5.00]
You can get a diff pumpkin from VAC and then return your core after. If you're in Spain the international shipping would probably be a lot but it's doable...
Appreciate 0
      11-28-2013, 12:57 AM   #3
3002 tii
Major General
3002 tii's Avatar
United_States
251
Rep
9,395
Posts

Drives: 07 Z4, 14 X3, 13 135is
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Westchester

iTrader: (74)

Garage List
I would definitely do suspension and in fact I wouldn't run semi-slick tires on a stock suspension. Sticky tires require a stiff suspension.

M3 bits, control arms and swaybars not worth it in my opinion. Seems like you'll get camber plates eventually so no point in buying the m3 arms. And swaybars should be the last addition to your suspension for fine tuning, not your primary way to stiffen the springs.

Don't tune the car, that extra hp won't make as big a difference than suspension on a road course. There are plenty of cars on track with far less hp and you probably have trouble keeping up with them because of soft suspension. Not to mention extra boost = potential limp mode and possible warranty issues.
__________________

TC Kline | Ground Control | Quaife | Stoptech | Supersprint | Active Autowerke | Volk

Click here for my track videos
Appreciate 0
      11-28-2013, 05:34 AM   #4
odariel
Private First Class
odariel's Avatar
Spain
3
Rep
136
Posts

Drives: M3 DKG
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Spain

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DallasBoosted View Post
You can get a diff pumpkin from VAC and then return your core after. If you're in Spain the international shipping would probably be a lot but it's doable...
I'll drop them an email to see how much would that be.. VAC only carries Quaife, right?




Quote:
Originally Posted by 3002 Tii View Post
I would definitely do suspension and in fact I wouldn't run semi-slick tires on a stock suspension. Sticky tires require a stiff suspension.

M3 bits, control arms and swaybars not worth it in my opinion. Seems like you'll get camber plates eventually so no point in buying the m3 arms. And swaybars should be the last addition to your suspension for fine tuning, not your primary way to stiffen the springs.

Don't tune the car, that extra hp won't make as big a difference than suspension on a road course. There are plenty of cars on track with far less hp and you probably have trouble keeping up with them because of soft suspension. Not to mention extra boost = potential limp mode and possible warranty issues.

Thanks both for your input

Last edited by odariel; 04-14-2014 at 02:56 PM.
Appreciate 0
      11-28-2013, 11:28 AM   #5
DallasBoosted
Captain
DallasBoosted's Avatar
17
Rep
864
Posts

Drives: '08 E92 335i
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Dallas

iTrader: (3)

Garage List
2008 BMW 335i  [5.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by odariel View Post
I'll drop them an email to see how much would that be.. VAC only carries Quaife, right?
No they do Quaife, Wavetrac and OS Giken.

http://store.vacmotorsports.com/vac-...als-p2324.aspx
Appreciate 0
      11-28-2013, 12:17 PM   #6
Smooth 330i
Major
Smooth 330i's Avatar
43
Rep
1,253
Posts

Drives: Sleepy 330i
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: PA

iTrader: (9)

Quote:
Originally Posted by odariel View Post
Hi guys,

I've decided to spend some money on my car, (and try to take advantage of black friday specials)

The goal, to improve my lap times..

My car, an E92 335i N55 DCT, has very light mods at the moment:

Cooling mods: Wagner Intercooler, Additional extra Water radiator & 335is ducts
Lightly improved braking with a set of goodridge metalic brakelines, better brake fluid (rbf 600) and EBC Yellowstuff brake pads
And a second set of wheels with some semislick tyres for the track days

I am thorn between 3 options:

Option 1: Improving suspension (Ohlins Road & Track) around 1700$


Option 2: M3 suspension bits around 1500$ ( control arms front & rear, maybe sway bars, although i guess the rear sway bar don't make sense until i get an LSD)




Option 3: Cobb V3 + ER chargepipe for 943$ I don't really want to tune the car, but a friend pointed this to me, and the black friday deal makes it tempting...


Should be an option but it isn't: LSD... i have a welded diff, and I live in spain where i would need to send it overseas to perform the cutting etc...

I talked to wavetrac and they don't stock my pumpkin, so i can't pay extra and when i receive it send mine back for a refund... and having the car on jacks for at least a month is a no go.. it is my daily driver.

Recommendations??? any other options i missed??
LSD and coilovers should be the top two items in addition to brakes. LSD will enable you to use the power effectively. Right now you can't use the power you have in corners due to lack of LSD and OEM suspension.

I am not sure that Ohlins R&T is the best choice. Make sure you do plenty of research and talkt to VAC (Steve or Mike). Steve helped me set-up my car and it is a night and day difference to the point that you can almost instantly see your driving flaws on track.
__________________

E90 330i Sport | JRZ RS1 | Dinan | Quaife | Evolve
M3 Bits | GC | Apex | Braile | Supersprint | Recaro
Stoptech BBK | BMW Perf | Macht Schnell | Turner
Appreciate 0
      11-28-2013, 12:30 PM   #7
CJ421
Brigadier General
CJ421's Avatar
United_States
76
Rep
3,289
Posts

Drives: 2011 E92 335i
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: PA

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2011 BMW 335i  [4.66]
An LSD would be the single biggest improvement you could make to your car; it will give you a lot more control over getting power down through corners.

After that, coilovers w/ stiffer springs and lower ride height.

The M3 parts offer incremental improvements. You might consider doing just a couple of them. IMO, get the front control arms and tension struts - they'll improve road feedback quite a bit.
__________________
2011 BMW 335i E92 - Le Mans Blue, 6MT, M Sport. JRZ RS Pro, Quaife LSD, BMW Perf Exhaust
Appreciate 0
      11-28-2013, 12:55 PM   #8
odariel
Private First Class
odariel's Avatar
Spain
3
Rep
136
Posts

Drives: M3 DKG
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Spain

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smooth 330i View Post
LSD and coilovers should be the top two items in addition to brakes. LSD will enable you to use the power effectively. Right now you can't use the power you have in corners due to lack of LSD and OEM suspension.

I am not sure that Ohlins R&T is the best choice. Make sure you do plenty of research and talkt to VAC (Steve or Mike). Steve helped me set-up my car and it is a night and day difference to the point that you can almost instantly see your driving flaws on track.
Well, by what i read the ohlins is a very competent set up, the springs aren't the hardest you will find, but that's good, since 90% of the driving will be made on the road... let's not forget it is my daily driver, some degree of comfort is still needed. And in case i need/want an stiffer ride i can always change the springs.

Regarding talking to the guys at VAC, will do. I have to drop them an email to inquire about the lsd..

Thanks!

Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ421 View Post
An LSD would be the single biggest improvement you could make to your car; it will give you a lot more control over getting power down through corners.

After that, coilovers w/ stiffer springs and lower ride height.

The M3 parts offer incremental improvements. You might consider doing just a couple of them. IMO, get the front control arms and tension struts - they'll improve road feedback quite a bit.
Thanks CJ, I just ordered those (the TRW kit). For once, parts that are cheaper here in spain than in the states... only 300$ for the 4 arms.

Another question for you guys; i read somewhere in the forum that when you get an LSD your suspension (specially in the rear) needs to be improved because the standard parts will not hold that well the new forces produced by the extra grip... do you agree with this??
Appreciate 0
      11-28-2013, 01:26 PM   #9
DallasBoosted
Captain
DallasBoosted's Avatar
17
Rep
864
Posts

Drives: '08 E92 335i
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Dallas

iTrader: (3)

Garage List
2008 BMW 335i  [5.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by odariel View Post
Another question for you guys; i read somewhere in the forum that when you get an LSD your suspension (specially in the rear) needs to be improved because the standard parts will not hold that well the new forces produced by the extra grip... do you agree with this??
When you do the rear subframe bushings, do the differential bushings as well. Don't do M3 bushings, they are barely better than the 335i bushings (although they are better.) Do the delrin or powerflex black bushings, or even the solid aluminum subframe bushings. Do powerflex or delrin differential bushings.

Once I got the LSD in and the bushings all done, the car actually tracks straight now when the wheels spin. It makes the car so much more predictable versus the stock bushings/open diff where the whole rear end torques itself around and reacts fairly unpredictably.
Appreciate 0
      11-28-2013, 01:33 PM   #10
odariel
Private First Class
odariel's Avatar
Spain
3
Rep
136
Posts

Drives: M3 DKG
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Spain

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DallasBoosted View Post
When you do the rear subframe bushings, do the differential bushings as well. Don't do M3 bushings, they are barely better than the 335i bushings (although they are better.) Do the delrin or powerflex black bushings, or even the solid aluminum subframe bushings. Do powerflex or delrin differential bushings.

Once I got the LSD in and the bushings all done, the car actually tracks straight now when the wheels spin. It makes the car so much more predictable versus the stock bushings/open diff where the whole rear end torques itself around and reacts fairly unpredictably.
Ok didn't know that... do you have a couple of links for those bushings? (the subframe ones (front and rear) i know, but the differential bushings i don't know where they go.

Thanks!!
Appreciate 0
      11-28-2013, 01:36 PM   #11
DallasBoosted
Captain
DallasBoosted's Avatar
17
Rep
864
Posts

Drives: '08 E92 335i
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Dallas

iTrader: (3)

Garage List
2008 BMW 335i  [5.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by odariel View Post
Ok didn't know that... do you have a couple of links for those bushings? (the subframe ones (front and rear) i know, but the differential bushings i don't know where they go.

Thanks!!
http://powerflexusa.com/bmwe90e91e92...-pfr5-425.aspx

http://powerflexusa.com/bmwe90e91e92...-pfr5-426.aspx
Appreciate 0
      11-28-2013, 07:16 PM   #12
odariel
Private First Class
odariel's Avatar
Spain
3
Rep
136
Posts

Drives: M3 DKG
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Spain

iTrader: (1)


Great, thank you! I'll get these when i finally get an lsd... So powerflex black bushings all around... noted.

Hey @CJ421 i see that you have camber plates, why do they somehow substitute the m3 arms as Smooth says??
Appreciate 0
      11-28-2013, 10:05 PM   #13
DallasBoosted
Captain
DallasBoosted's Avatar
17
Rep
864
Posts

Drives: '08 E92 335i
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Dallas

iTrader: (3)

Garage List
2008 BMW 335i  [5.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by odariel View Post
Great, thank you! I'll get these when i finally get an lsd... So powerflex black bushings all around... noted.

Hey @CJ421 i see that you have camber plates, why do they somehow substitute the m3 arms as Smooth says??
They don't substitute. The reason you get the M3 arms is for the bushings that sit in those arms. The arms are also slightly longer, giving a little bit more negative camber. You probably won't need the negative camber if you get camber plates. But you still want the arms for the bushing stiffness.
Appreciate 0
      11-29-2013, 10:58 AM   #14
3002 tii
Major General
3002 tii's Avatar
United_States
251
Rep
9,395
Posts

Drives: 07 Z4, 14 X3, 13 135is
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Westchester

iTrader: (74)

Garage List
I disagree on bushings, I've seen many powerflex bushings crack prematurely and trust me you don't want to have to pay for labor on this job more than once. M3 ones are sufficient.

And in regards to your precious post about what mods are popular here you'll quickly realize following the lead of many here won't get you far. A lot of members here mod their e9x for the sole purpose of circle jerk car gtg/meets.
__________________

TC Kline | Ground Control | Quaife | Stoptech | Supersprint | Active Autowerke | Volk

Click here for my track videos
Appreciate 0
      11-29-2013, 11:14 AM   #15
odariel
Private First Class
odariel's Avatar
Spain
3
Rep
136
Posts

Drives: M3 DKG
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Spain

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3002 Tii View Post
I disagree on bushings, I've seen many powerflex bushings crack prematurely and trust me you don't want to have to pay for labor on this job more than once. M3 ones are sufficient.

And in regards to your precious post about what mods are popular here you'll quickly realize following the lead of many here won't get you far. A lot of members here mod their e9x for the sole purpose of circle jerk car gtg/meets.
Well, i don't know about you, but if i read that 20 people that track their cars frequently, and they say that m3 control arms do deliver, i am inclined to believe them. Please tell me how else am i going to decide which upgrades are the best if not by relying on what the mayority says.. I guess my best chance at getting it right is here, in this subforum.


By the way, I asked you to elaborate on your affirmation that with camber plates you don't need control arms, but apparently, you don't care to explain. Please enlighten me, because the reasoning that Dallas just argumented in the post on top of yours is why i was getting them... Better /stiffer bushings, more controled front...

Last edited by odariel; 04-14-2014 at 02:57 PM.
Appreciate 0
      11-29-2013, 11:46 AM   #16
3002 tii
Major General
3002 tii's Avatar
United_States
251
Rep
9,395
Posts

Drives: 07 Z4, 14 X3, 13 135is
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Westchester

iTrader: (74)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by odariel View Post
Well, i don't know about you, but if i read that 20 people that track their cars frequently, and they say that m3 control arms do deliver, i am inclined to believe them. Please tell me how else am i going to decide which upgrades are the best if not by relying on what the mayority says.. I am no proffesional pilot, nor expert in the matter, and here in spain people don't track this kind of car, so there is no knoledgeable garage that knows the little details about our platform... I guess my best chance at getting it right is here, in this subforum.


By the way, I asked you to elaborate on your affirmation that with camber plates you don't need control arms, but apparently, you don't care to explain. Please enlighten me, because the reasoning that Dallas just argumented in the post on top of yours is why i was getting them... Better /stiffer bushings, more controled front...
Sorry I didn't elaborate because I thought someone else chimed in. My point about he camber plates is seeing how you're going to turn your car into a competent track car (based on the mods you're considering), camber plates seems inevitable. You might not get them now but you'll need them eventually as you later decide to stick wider rubber up fronts or just want to improve overall turn-in. M3 control arms do the same thing in helping you dial in negative camber so why spend the money on arms when you can get camber plates anyway for the same cost but you get the additional benefits of full adjustability (camber, caster, toe). M3 coversion bits are popular because they are OEM and give you the suspension upgrade some are looking for without having to buy aftermarket parts, great for a street car but if you're serious about tracking even those parts offer limited be benefits.

Sure you get the benefit of bushing stiffness as Dallas mentioned but can you or anyone quantify how much that'll translate into lap times? I'm all about best bang for buck mod, not the ultimate glory list of OEM mods. With a fixed amount to spend, there's a clear list of parts that you'll benefit the most from. M3 control arms and sways are not on the top of the list if your budget allows for coilovers with stiffer springs and control arms.

And I still insist on not getting poly bushings. If you want to hear that the majority has to say, read on Bimmeforums track section. Real race car and DE instructors will tell you how OEM rubber m3 bushings are the best. They're firm, allow some deflection so you won't get unwanted NVH and most importantly, will last 40k if not more.

Regarding the tune, check 50 page long sticky on limp mode failures. Sure there's always one or two guys who swear they get by fine but that's not the majority.
__________________

TC Kline | Ground Control | Quaife | Stoptech | Supersprint | Active Autowerke | Volk

Click here for my track videos

Last edited by 3002 tii; 11-29-2013 at 11:55 AM.
Appreciate 0
      11-29-2013, 12:24 PM   #17
DallasBoosted
Captain
DallasBoosted's Avatar
17
Rep
864
Posts

Drives: '08 E92 335i
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Dallas

iTrader: (3)

Garage List
2008 BMW 335i  [5.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3002 Tii View Post
Sure you get the benefit of bushing stiffness as Dallas mentioned but can you or anyone quantify how much that'll translate into lap times? I'm all about best bang for buck mod, not the ultimate glory list of OEM mods. With a fixed amount to spend, there's a clear list of parts that you'll benefit the most from. M3 control arms and sways are not on the top of the list if your budget allows for coilovers with stiffer springs and control arms.
I think its a fair point that bushings don't necessarily translate directly into lap times, but they do add confidence since your suspension won't deflect as much, and it will feel a lot more solid. Confidence does translate into lap times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3002 Tii View Post
And I still insist on not getting poly bushings. If you want to hear that the majority has to say, read on Bimmeforums track section. Real race car and DE instructors will tell you how OEM rubber m3 bushings are the best. They're firm, allow some deflection so you won't get unwanted NVH and most importantly, will last 40k if not more.
I wouldn't get poly bushings in control arms, but I think in the subframe they are great. I've had powerflex subframe bushings in for a while (about 5 track events) and no issues so far. Will update with any issues. Its also fair to note that E36/46 suspension is considerably different from E90/92 suspension, particularly in the front. The bushing setups are different and create different stresses. The E90 suspension is quite a bit more conventional for strut suspension.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3002 Tii View Post
Regarding the tune, check 50 page long sticky on limp mode failures. Sure there's always one or two guys who swear they get by fine but that's not the majority.
I've been using a Cobb tune for over a year now with not one tune related limp mode on track and only 2-3 limp modes total (with those being one intercooler hose blowing off and the others when I ran it out of fuel and it cut fuel injection due to low fuel pressure). I run the Cobb race maps now on track with E30-35 and no issues in 30 minute sessions.

Last edited by DallasBoosted; 11-29-2013 at 01:09 PM.
Appreciate 0
      11-29-2013, 01:48 PM   #18
3002 tii
Major General
3002 tii's Avatar
United_States
251
Rep
9,395
Posts

Drives: 07 Z4, 14 X3, 13 135is
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Westchester

iTrader: (74)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by DallasBoosted View Post
I think its a fair point that bushings don't necessarily translate directly into lap times, but they do add confidence since your suspension won't deflect as much, and it will feel a lot more solid. Confidence does translate into lap times.



I wouldn't get poly bushings in control arms, but I think in the subframe they are great. I've had powerflex subframe bushings in for a while (about 5 track events) and no issues so far. Will update with any issues. Its also fair to note that E36/46 suspension is considerably different from E90/92 suspension, particularly in the front. The bushing setups are different and create different stresses. The E90 suspension is quite a bit more conventional for strut suspension.



I've been using a Cobb tune for over a year now with not one tune related limp mode on track and only 2-3 limp modes total (with those being one intercooler hose blowing off and the others when I ran it out of fuel and it cut fuel injection due to low fuel pressure). I run the Cobb race maps now on track with E30-35 and no issues in 30 minute sessions.
And there's 30 pages that say otherwise, clearly ymmv but for a car still under warranty I see more downside than upside for running a tune on track. For a street car it's less of a concern.
__________________

TC Kline | Ground Control | Quaife | Stoptech | Supersprint | Active Autowerke | Volk

Click here for my track videos
Appreciate 0
      11-29-2013, 08:17 PM   #19
StealYourFace
Lieutenant Colonel
United_States
70
Rep
1,525
Posts

Drives: 2006 330i sport
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Shakedown Street, Buffalo NY

iTrader: (1)

^^^

And does a track newbie need the added power of a tune on a 35i? With 300/300 that is already way more than adequate for having fun while learning lines and gaining experience.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      11-29-2013, 08:32 PM   #20
TheAxiom
Brigadier General
TheAxiom's Avatar
United_States
361
Rep
3,842
Posts

Drives: E90 6Spd ZSP
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Florida

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3002 Tii View Post
I disagree on bushings, I've seen many powerflex bushings crack prematurely and trust me you don't want to have to pay for labor on this job more than once. M3 ones are sufficient.

And in regards to your precious post about what mods are popular here you'll quickly realize following the lead of many here won't get you far. A lot of members here mod their e9x for the sole purpose of circle jerk car gtg/meets.

So much this!
Appreciate 0
      12-02-2013, 11:22 PM   #21
HP Autosport
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor
United_States
621
Rep
12,591
Posts


Drives: F80 M3
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Santa Barbara, Brembo, GIAC, Koni, Ohlins, Performance Friction, Quaife, Stoptech, Vorshlag

iTrader: (31)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3002 Tii View Post
And there's 30 pages that say otherwise, clearly ymmv but for a car still under warranty I see more downside than upside for running a tune on track. For a street car it's less of a concern.
I agree to some extent, ESPECIALLY for piggy-backs. I have also seen Cobb throw some codes and limp modes at track days. I have gotten 1 limp mode at Fontana Speedway on a 128+ track temp day with my GIAC stage 2 (race), haha. GIAC is definitely the safest tune to run and why we, berk, and ER used it.

And I also have heard mixed reviews about the powerflex but don't have enough knowledge to form a conclusion. I will be throwing in the monoball fronts soon so that should be fun.

To the OP, I would HIGHLY recommend the M3 front control arms (if you just want to do one M3 suspension mod). I noticed a significant different in turn-in accuracy, confidence, and overall agility. It made the steering a little heavier (but in a good way). I would also suggest subframe bushings (if you have over 40k miles), rear guide rods & rear upper links (both to prevent wheel hop under harsh acceleration), and front strut brace (if you eventually run camber plates). I would tend to stay away from sway bars because you want your main focus to be on spring rates and use the sway bars for just that little extra.

Let me know if you have narrowed it down a little bit because I could go on and on about this stuff, haha.

-Mike
Appreciate 0
      12-03-2013, 01:52 AM   #22
will.c
Lieutenant
will.c's Avatar
United_States
24
Rep
594
Posts

Drives: E46M
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Central Jersey

iTrader: (5)

Good job on the brakes and tires. Definitely should be the first few things on anyone's list.

Out of those three options, you should ABSOLUTELY do the coilovers next. The general rule is that coilovers take care of 90% of one's suspension needs, distantly followed by bushings, M3 parts, sway bars, and everything else. Honestly, you won't really feel the effect of M3 parts.

Camber plates are for minimizing tire shoulder wear, thus extending tire life.

Power? You should do this when you observe yourself consistently catching up to E9x M3s and GT3s in corners but lagging behind at corner exit or straights.

LSD? Eh.. for that much money, I'd just practice being more precise with the throttle.

One item you haven't mentioned is seats. Get reclining seats with a lot of side bolsters for moderate improvement in chassis feedback, or go with bucket seats, 6pt, and roll bar/cage to feel EVERYTHING.
Appreciate 0
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:16 AM.




e90post
e90post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST