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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > NA Engine (non-turbo) / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications > Rotrex N52 forged internals. 450+whp.



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      06-16-2013, 06:31 PM   #1
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Rotrex N52 forged internals. 450+whp.

...I don't know if any of you took notice but the Armaspeed kit now utilizes a Rotrex blower. Uhhmmm....that's amazing. I'll spare you the details, do a quick search on Rotrex if your not in the loop.


BEFORE you say trade up and buy a "XYZ......."

Understand, we all didn't get a "super steal" of a deal x a deal like I'm sure YOU did on your fully loaded m-package equipped, built from the factory the way you wanted it, Bavarian beast AKA for me to "comfortably" get out of my 328xi. I'd have to drop at least $2-3k(*HOLD THAT THOUGHT*).

....because YES, 335s and even M3s are now at a steal of a price! So imagine what they offer a 328 on a trade-in (not rocket science) Before the military I used to be a car salesman so trust me I know the ins & outs of the game.

BEFORE you say "OMG that thing is gonna blow......"

Realize that as of 2013....There is no such thing as a stout engine FROM THE FACTORY that isn't already built to the tightest of tolerances & to its performance limits. Don't believe me....see the numerous "how much can I boost safely on XYZ threads......" & The almighty GTR even needs Strengthened rods and some tranny work to hit those numbers the cars you watch on youtube all day spanking anything with an engine & tires to lay to tarmac.

Goal = Best way to 450whp

Option 1: Trade up to 335i
- down payment
- Bolt-ons
- Upgraded turbo(s)
- Lets say a quick prayer for #1 owning a used 335i out of warranty
- Lets see how long it holds together.
- BIGGEST KILLER: It will too eventually need to be rebuilt

Option 2: Trade up to M3
- down payment (x2)
- used S/C kit(I'll be fair, they do pop up here and there)
- BIGGEST KILLER: Overall cost

Option 3: Boost what I got.
- forged internals (see VAC motorsports)
- Arma kit
- Custom pulley to see roughly 15+ psi)
- BIGGEST KILLER: Uncharted territory can be costly


The reality is no matter which route you take in performance building, you will need to fortify the engine, I don't care what you start with...before you bring up tranny issues, the fact is you'll find more 335i/M3 threads about tranny issues as you would any other platform, they happen, they're apart of the game. If its weak, replace it.

.....I'm headed on a deployment, Idk which venue to take when I get back. Hell, I could just say forget it all and go straight for the new M3!
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...do it right or do it twice(or more)

Last edited by Dom_J; 06-16-2013 at 08:50 PM.
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      06-16-2013, 07:10 PM   #2
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Do a search on here for Arma. They aren't well liked on here...
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      06-16-2013, 07:36 PM   #3
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Sure people have had their problems with Arma, but I admire them just for the effort. They are the absolute closest company to getting a working SC on an n52.

And Rotrex blowers are legit. I'd be very interested to see someone attempt an install.
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      06-16-2013, 08:23 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny D View Post
Do a search on here for Arma. They aren't well liked on here...
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDane07 View Post
Sure people have had their problems with Arma, but I admire them just for the effort. They are the absolute closest company to getting a working SC on an n52.

And Rotrex blowers are legit. I'd be very interested to see someone attempt an install.
^^ Bingo.

I can understand they're may have been a few hiccups, when aren't there any with a new company coming up with a new design. The fact is, I suppose they were not as good at making blowers as they thought they we're and they owned up to it with using the best product on the market.

I'm almost 100% sure this came from single minded people posts like "OMG this Taiwanese made kit with it super cheap blower, they're gonna blow your engine!" Now what.

A manufacturer actually listened and took a buyers opinion into consideration instead of making a million excuses on why XYZ won't work. They took action, they're will not better a better kit for our platforms.

I commend them for that. That is a superb kit they put together, and I have no problem paying them 7k for it.

From my personal experiences thus far, their customer service has been A-1 and their techs very knowledgeable.

No one else has the time, money, efforts or the care to produce anything for the lowly N52....if they do, the forum bashes them to make a product faster than they can blink only to let it sit on the shelves of the manufacturers with a bunch of "well.....we had XXXX interested, X actually went through with the promise. It's gotta be hard on the manufacturer. I'm glad these guys didn't give up.

...I'm excited to see what kind of numbers I get. ;-)(or which venue to take in the effort to reach them >.<)
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...do it right or do it twice(or more)

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      06-16-2013, 08:53 PM   #5
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What about the rest of the kit? What about the cars that grenaded and ARMA refused the warranty they guarantee? Yeah, good luck with that. Just buy a 335i or be happy with the N/A motor.
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      06-16-2013, 09:57 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny D View Post
What about the rest of the kit? What about the cars that grenaded and ARMA refused the warranty they guarantee? Yeah, good luck with that. Just buy a 335i or be happy with the N/A motor.
How many cars grenaded? What was it due to? Was it 1 of 10 or like a 7 out of 10 type of deal...pointless questions I guess. I'll try to search them.

That's the biggest issue....

Idk what false sense of security that seems to come with buying a 335, keeping my engine N/A, or the modifications that you've done to your vehicle actually seem to imply

As a tuner myself(meaning that in the most modest, literal way), I've been using the "domestic world's" pretty much stand alone go-to ECU programmer(HPTuners) for the better part of the last 6 years. Starting with my Supercharged Ion Redline to twin turbo Corvettes and Trailblazer SS'.....

...from the beginning when friends couldn't afford to get on a dyno, so it was me in your passenger seat(with the laptop), while we rode around town as I dialed in your idle and partial throttle fuel trims to heading onto the clearest highway we could get to for repeated 3rd gear pulls dialing in WOT AFR w/the most timing we could get w/zero knock because a powerband is a terrible thing to waste.....to spending 6-8 hours on a dyno just dialing in injectors and partial throttle.

THERE IS NO GUARANTEE IN TUNING. My trial and error was ME blowing up my own engines and having to rebuild. I don't tune anyone's vehicle who cannot grasp this simple concept. I will show you each and everything I am doing while breaking down what I am doing to protect your engine from the inevitable but at the end of the day. There is no guarantee....but IF SOMEONE TUNES YOUR VEHICLE FOR LESS THAN AN HOUR ON A DYNO, they've either made no real changes AT ALL or you should be very scared.

Your engine can blow next week. I'd bet you, you ride around worry free w/no wideband or even a knock meter of some sort like your engine is completely bulletproof at all times; with the modifications you have. I'm not some kid who hasn't actually used my hands past doing oil changes and intake swaps.


I'm not here to argue with you or for them but in the matter of research and development, you break shit. If you haven't, I'd worry about the product you advertise. This latest version of their kit, seems legit IMO. If you've seen another part of the company that you do not wish to deal with in the future. That is understandable.

And yes....for the record, there isn't a stock 335i around hanging with my Ion Redline.....I'd stretch it and say most modified ones but I'll keep it modest b/c its just a Saturn lol






^^ Single most important tools you can have in modifying anything! Essential monitoring tools giving you insight on everything imaginable inside your ECU. We need an interceptor gauge for the bimmers!




And it wasn't just about the straight line action....
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Last edited by Dom_J; 06-16-2013 at 10:43 PM.
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      06-16-2013, 10:00 PM   #7
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Johnny D you do know ARMA has a new SC kit right? The new kit was made with Rotrex cooperation, which is really interesting & i'd really like to see it's durability and power output.
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      06-16-2013, 10:10 PM   #8
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I wonder if the price is still ~6k. I can't find anything on their website
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      06-16-2013, 11:09 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JS-NA.E92 View Post
Johnny D you do know ARMA has a new SC kit right? The new kit was made with Rotrex cooperation, which is really interesting & i'd really like to see it's durability and power output.
I do and my view on the subject is not about Rotrex as a company or product, but ARMA and everything that comes with that.
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      06-17-2013, 04:17 AM   #10
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Your logic is so jacked up that I don't even know where to begin.
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      06-17-2013, 08:29 AM   #11
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Maybe its still to early but this thread is already making my head spin lol, ill just hang back.
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      06-17-2013, 09:28 AM   #12
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talk about a kanye west rant..
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      06-17-2013, 11:55 AM   #13
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^^ lol forums are here to discuss...we discuss.
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      06-17-2013, 01:09 PM   #14
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I dont see anything wrong with your logic. I dont have the money to do something like this or upgrade cars, being a student, but I would definitely say this would be cooler than a 335. Our cylinder sleeves are open deck so they could be changed with the other forged internals and get a lower compression ratio with the new internals for more boost with the SC.. but im sure you know all the possibilities. I just know I dont have the time or money to do something like that and spend the time tuning the engine management for hours like you said. Especially with valvetronic tuning, that would be quite the task and would take weeks
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      06-17-2013, 01:50 PM   #15
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The single biggest flaw in his logic is that it would be cheaper to add forced induction to an N52 (at a cost of $8,000+, mind you) than it would be to just take a bath on trading it for a 335i. This has been beaten to death. There will never be a viable forced induction application for the N52/1 engines. The very concept is stupid and self-defeating. Even if some company managed to bring one to market, hypothetically, for $6000 no one would buy it because it makes no sense. Here would be the thought process of someone stupid enough to do this: "Let me spend many thousands of dollars to add forced induction to this expensive German engine that was never designed for it all to get to a power figure that is the same as (or probably less than) a bog standard 335i. Which I could just upgrade to for many dollars less than the cost of this hypothetical supercharger kit. Oh shit, you mean I could be at 400+ whp for a couple of thousand in a 335i?"
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      06-17-2013, 01:55 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CombatNinja View Post
The single biggest flaw in his logic is that it would be cheaper to add forced induction to an N52 (at a cost of $8,000+, mind you) than it would be to just take a bath on trading it for a 335i. This has been beaten to death. There will never be a viable forced induction application for the N52/1 engines. The very concept is stupid and self-defeating. Even if some company managed to bring one to market, hypothetically, for $6000 no one would buy it because it makes no sense. Here would be the thought process of someone stupid enough to do this: "Let me spend many thousands of dollars to add forced induction to this expensive German engine that was never designed for it all to get to a power figure that is the same as (or probably less than) a bog standard 335i. Which I could just upgrade to for many dollars less than the cost of this hypothetical supercharger kit. Oh shit, you mean I could be at 400+ whp for a couple of thousand in a 335i?"
The assumption you're making there is that he wants the highest power/$ ratio. Maybe he just wants the supercharged. I mean we all bought BMWs in the first place so we're clearly not only concerned with performance per dollar. You're very right. it has been beaten to death. And you just did it again.
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      06-17-2013, 01:57 PM   #17
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He clearly states that his goal is "the best way to 450 whp". Assuming the e90 platform is a given, he is way off the mark.
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      06-17-2013, 02:24 PM   #18
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yeah i suppose you are right. assuming E90 chassis, the "best"/easiest way for 450hp wouldnt be a SCed N52
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      06-17-2013, 02:35 PM   #19
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This engine is made from materials like magnesium to reduce weight. Magnesium blocks do not do well with heat.
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      06-17-2013, 02:38 PM   #20
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If you have the balls to SC then go ahead no one is going to stop you....beating a dead horse here
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      06-17-2013, 03:09 PM   #21
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buy 335i /endthread... 450 whp comes easy and does very little 'stress' on the motor itself which has proven to hold well into 700whp with a 66mm precision turbo.
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      06-17-2013, 05:48 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SDemetris View Post
I dont see anything wrong with your logic. I dont have the money to do something like this or upgrade cars, being a student, but I would definitely say this would be cooler than a 335. Our cylinder sleeves are open deck so they could be changed with the other forged internals and get a lower compression ratio with the new internals for more boost with the SC.. but im sure you know all the possibilities. I just know I dont have the time or money to do something like that and spend the time tuning the engine management for hours like you said. Especially with valvetronic tuning, that would be quite the task and would take weeks
Thanks for that input....and yes, you are thinking along the lines of what I am contemplating. Tuning will in fact be the largest hurdle...I love the 335i so much due to that very reason, there IS a mass support from the aftermarket when it comes to "tuners," the experience is there. I won't argue that one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CombatNinja View Post
The single biggest flaw in his logic is that it would be cheaper to add forced induction to an N52 (at a cost of $8,000+, mind you) than it would be to just take a bath on trading it for a 335i. This has been beaten to death. There will never be a viable forced induction application for the N52/1 engines. The very concept is stupid and self-defeating. Even if some company managed to bring one to market, hypothetically, for $6000 no one would buy it because it makes no sense. Here would be the thought process of someone stupid enough to do this: "Let me spend many thousands of dollars to add forced induction to this expensive German engine that was never designed for it all to get to a power figure that is the same as (or probably less than) a bog standard 335i. Which I could just upgrade to for many dollars less than the cost of this hypothetical supercharger kit. Oh shit, you mean I could be at 400+ whp for a couple of thousand in a 335i?"
$15k is the budget....can you post links to 3 threads with 450+ whp 335i's please? I mean ones you believe in, were done right by you.

I appreciate your input, its really easy to say buy a 335 clearly not taking into account that we are nearly doubling it's power too(along with the stipulations mentioned earlier), in an effort to shoot past 400+whp. The turbos will be replaced, the manifold will be replaced. Anything related to the stock 300hp......will be replaced. You know exactly what that will cost. C'mon, its not cheap.

I'd be starting with a platform a bit stronger including a decent block, slightly beefier drivetrain.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDemetris View Post
The assumption you're making there is that he wants the highest power/$ ratio. Maybe he just wants the supercharged. I mean we all bought BMWs in the first place so we're clearly not only concerned with performance per dollar. You're very right. it has been beaten to death. And you just did it again.
ditto. >.<
Quote:
Originally Posted by SDemetris View Post
yeah i suppose you are right. assuming E90 chassis, the "best"/easiest way for 450hp wouldnt be a SCed N52
Quote:
Originally Posted by CombatNinja View Post
He clearly states that his goal is "the best way to 450 whp". Assuming the e90 platform is a given, he is way off the mark.
C'mon...you knew what I was getting at if I wanted to play that game:

(1) Non-Z06 C6 vette $30k
(1) Cam $1k
(1) Blower $6k
(1) HPTuners software/tuning $free.99

Take a guess at those HP numbers

RIP to 98.9% of everything I come in contact with on my daily commute. Clearly, there is no more logical set-up than that to be had as of today. Clearly, that has the most logic for 450+(600+) ;-) ...but where's the fun in that?? *DISCLAIMER* IMO lol


Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew@ActiveAutowerke View Post
This engine is made from materials like magnesium to reduce weight. Magnesium blocks do not do well with heat.
Thank you for your input Andrew, you probably know better than most, I know which side of the fence you are on as well

Half of my "logical" reasoning behind wanting to use the Rotrex blower was due to the amazing amount of pressure it can put out vs heat. Eaton style blowers and turbos generate a ridiculous amount of heat, no way around it. I don't know if anyone can post intake temps of what 335s are doing w/an intercooler mod but I've seen Rotrex blowers keep intake temps as low as 100* back to back to back pulling with an efficient air-to-air type of set-up. They really are state of the art.

At 15 psi could be another story though, I won't lie...only the hondas boys have took the Journey...and as always, they've got a few K-Swaps making 400+ whp like it came out a cereal box ready for action with the Rotrex blower.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ska325xi View Post
If you have the balls to SC then go ahead no one is going to stop you....beating a dead horse here
We do this in the name of horses man, it will be beating...time...and time.....and time again. We'll see how it goes. Stay tuned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Continue5 View Post
buy 335i /endthread... 450 whp comes easy and does very little 'stress' on the motor itself which has proven to hold well into 700whp with a 66mm precision turbo.
Thank you for that input, can you please provide me 3 threads to what it took for those members to get 450whp...I keep hearing it, but those aren't exactly the threads I seem to catch when I head over to the dark side....a few clicks away


This is just me fellas, everyone won't take the same path, I didn't see the value of the e90's dropping the way they have been(across the board)...to hit the "reset" button and drop a hefty down payment.....just to tear it apart, just doesn't feel right. Not when I have a 300whp Tupperware mobile readily available to terrorize shit in the name of cheap thrills.


**EDIT**

As you can see....I get bored at work, and I'm passionate about this motorsports thing so I like to talk lol(if you like to read non-sense)....I'm 28 and though I'm not super old(nor young), I started doing this in a Toyota Tercel, JDM swapped a 4E-FTE starlet motor that put down 165whp and ran a 14.7 when 15's were considered fast lol. I did that with an FMU and a S-AFC(you remember those)....to single cam D-Series pushing 350whp+...that's why you must excuse me if I don't feed into the weak motors concept as much. It's all in your tune.

For the record, YES, I have boosted one bimmer, an older 318ti(4cyl), started w/a eaton s/c, had it tuned at VAC, ran great....it just had no balls overall, couldn't even get into the 14's...tried to up the boost(no real cooling mods), made more heat, just couldn't hang, it blew after about 8 months. Threw an S50 swap in with with a ebay turbo kit...couldn't keep those rear wheels planted lol amazing little car, I was just helping out a friend but I learned a bit. I also know these engine can take a bit of boost.

After my fully built Evo from Japan that made 450+ awd power, I'm a bit bitter with turbo set-ups(even those turbo'd from the factory)....there's just too many gremlins to lurk here and there. Blowing up my LSJ motor in my Ion has by far been my toughest learning curve...
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...do it right or do it twice(or more)

Last edited by Dom_J; 06-17-2013 at 06:46 PM.
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