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      06-18-2013, 12:12 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
+1000
Most atheists I have met, are borderline extremist in that they are as passionate about the non existence of god, as most believers are in his existence
And get just as worked up
If you really believed in the non existence of a higher power
You would get as excited as if I said I believe in the Loch Ness monster
I.e. you couldn't care less
Loch ness is not taught in schools. and people dont get wrapped in bombs killing in the name of it.
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      06-18-2013, 12:22 AM   #46
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What?? really? those are scientifically proven..

especially biology has showed us so much that it already disproves the stories about adam and eve and creation stuff and people still refuse to see it.
Honestly, lets move away from this caricature that every single religious person doesn't understand science. I would point out that the Catholic church's official position is that they accept evolution.

Only a minority of Christians are young-earth creationists.
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      06-18-2013, 12:26 AM   #47
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I am not offended by people who feel the need to announce that they are Christian. However I will proceed to judge them on the following basis:

1) if for them their Christianity means spending their spare time doing charity work and rolling up their sleeves to help the poor and suffering, then I will admire them as good Christians.

2) if their Christianity means blindly following the principles of a 2000+ year old best selling fiction novel but not actually lifting a finger to assist people with real problems, then I will treat them as intellectually inferior beings worth no more than monkeys.
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      06-18-2013, 12:33 AM   #48
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Honestly, lets move away from this caricature that every single religious person doesn't understand science. I would point out that the Catholic church's official position is that they accept evolution.

Only a minority of Christians are young-earth creationists.
i´m not saying that. dont you think that the church is a bit hypocritical when eventually is accepting evolution?
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      06-18-2013, 12:39 AM   #49
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I was expecting a real sh*tstorm but I am slightly disappointed..


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but not actually lifting a finger to assist people with real problems, then I will treat them as intellectually inferior beings worth no more than monkeys.
ironically those who use their brains don't have to lift a finger?
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      06-18-2013, 01:20 AM   #50
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i´m not saying that. dont you think that the church is a bit hypocritical when eventually is accepting evolution?
By that logic, what's your response to Science's wide-spread adoption of Lamarckism prior to Darwinism?



On another note, there seems to be a real misunderstanding here of what it means to be Christian. I believe this passage from Luke is at the core of what leading a Christian lifestyle means:

Luke 6:31-34:

31 Do to others as you would have them do to you. 32 “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full.


It's a lot more than what most people do these days.
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      06-18-2013, 02:05 AM   #51
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Interesting discussion.
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      06-18-2013, 02:45 AM   #52
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By that logic, what's your response to Science's wide-spread adoption of Lamarckism prior to Darwinism?



On another note, there seems to be a real misunderstanding here of what it means to be Christian. I believe this passage from Luke is at the core of what leading a Christian lifestyle means:

Luke 6:31-34:

31 Do to others as you would have them do to you. 32 “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full.


It's a lot more than what most people do these days.
science is based on facts, and when facts change so does science. if something is proven to be right or wrong then ok. this is the main problem, in religion nothing is proven, they just expect us to believe. so when some religion states that it is the "truth", but then comes and re evaluates when something is proven otherwise then it loses all credibility. who is to say that the church wont re evaluate and state that there isnt a god eventually.


regarding Luke, i´m not against the christian teachings regarding social behaviour. But i do believe that the same morality and norms would exist in a well constructed society (like ours). I do not need a book to tell me not to kill. i´m pretty sure tribes in the amazon with no affiliation to any of the major gods(!) dont kill each other.
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      06-18-2013, 07:40 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by panicos81 View Post
What?? really? those are scientifically proven..

especially biology has showed us so much that it already disproves the stories about adam and eve and creation stuff and people still refuse to see it.
Actually, science, by it's very nature can't disprove anything.

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Originally Posted by panicos81 View Post
Loch ness is not taught in schools. and people dont get wrapped in bombs killing in the name of it.
I don't know about your country but here in 'murica, religion is not taught in schools.

Also, people strap bombs on them for many reasons, for some, they twist their religion into God allowing them to do so.

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i´m not saying that. dont you think that the church is a bit hypocritical when eventually is accepting evolution?
The scientific method was developed by cultures who widely accepted God or gods. In fact probably before you were born, it was a priest who proposed the big bang theory.

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science is based on facts, and when facts change so does science. if something is proven to be right or wrong then ok. this is the main problem, in religion nothing is proven, they just expect us to believe. so when some religion states that it is the "truth", but then comes and re evaluates when something is proven otherwise then it loses all credibility. who is to say that the church wont re evaluate and state that there isnt a god eventually.


regarding Luke, i´m not against the christian teachings regarding social behaviour. But i do believe that the same morality and norms would exist in a well constructed society (like ours). I do not need a book to tell me not to kill. i´m pretty sure tribes in the amazon with no affiliation to any of the major gods(!) dont kill each other.
FYI, for the most part, science is based on theories, some are accepted, which doesn't mean they are fact. When they are accepted it simply means they can't disprove that particular theory....yet.

So what you're saying is when science states something to be true and then changes it's position it's commendable, but when the church does it they lose all credibility? Really? It was not long ago when the best scientists in the world agreed that the earth was flat and that the earth was the center of the universe.

Since science can't disprove anything, it can only suggest an alternate theory. This means by your estimation, we as humans, within a few generations, will have a total and complete understanding of our universe, space, the origin of life, etc... And these theories will all be widely accepted and all will be able to be proved beyond a shadow of a doubt. Yet just 30 years ago the only planets known to exist were in our solar system. Yeah, seems plausible.


Are you kidding me!?! Tribes don't kill each other?!?! What rock do you live under?
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      06-18-2013, 08:07 AM   #54
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i´m pretty sure tribes in the amazon with no affiliation to any of the major gods(!) dont kill each other.
What? Yes, they do. They fight over resources all the time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yanomam%C3%B6

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Violence is one of the leading causes of Yanomami death. Up to half of all of Yanomami males die violent deaths in the constant conflict between neighboring communities over local resources. Often these confrontations lead to the Yanomami leaving their villages in search of new ones.[9] Women are often victims of physical abuse and anger. Inter-village warfare is common, but does not too commonly affect women. When Yanomami tribes fight and raid nearby tribes, women are often raped, beaten, and brought back to their shabono to be kept in their tribe. During the raids, Yanomami men capture and bring back the other women in hopes of marrying them. Wives are beaten on a regular basis, so as to keep them docile and faithful to their husbands.[11] Sexual jealousy causes a majority of the violence.[10] Women are beaten with clubs, sticks, machetes, and other blunt or sharp objects. Burning with a branding stick occurs often, and symbolizes a male’s strength or dominance over his wife.
With or without religion, people can be quite violent and will kill each other. It's true that a lot of major wars have been fought over religion, but I wouldn't take it as far as saying that without religion everyone would be peaceful.

There has always been some sort of "religion" or belief in a higher power. In ancient mesopotamia when people actually started to become a true society, they built monuments and ziggurats to deities of the sun and moon. It's in human nature to believe in a higher power to justify their lives, and it's not going away anytime soon.
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      06-18-2013, 09:37 AM   #55
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And yet you believe in a lot of other things you have never seen
Atoms, black holes, etc
apply my previous statement of i wouldn't call Christians the most educated people in the world though here.

called it....
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      06-18-2013, 10:05 AM   #56
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Quote:
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Quote:
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And yet you believe in a lot of other things you have never seen
Atoms, black holes, etc
apply my previous statement of i wouldn't call Christians the most educated people in the world though here.

called it....
I think what he is trying to say is that we understand that these things exist, but simply understanding the mechanics of how things work with no real understanding of why they exist, how they were formed, and no way of replicating them is more blind faith than religion IMO. Black hole theory is nothing more than some long scribblings of mathematical equations that is also suppose to prove that there are infinite multiple dimensions and the dimensions with black holes in them are all eventually doomed until only one dimension is left standing...but hey Hawking postulated it so it must be true!

I second that only a few hundred years ago the scientific world view was that the world was flat, or in the 1800's medical doctors prescribed 'bleedings' for fever and other ailments. Anyone who questioned these academics was ridiculed, but they are now the ones who are ridiculed.

The reason the scientists and engineers, who discover many of the facts that blathering atheists use as examples during their pontificating, are Christians is because they understand that we know so little about the universe, our environment and our own bodies that they have concluded it is less of a stretch to believe in intelligent design than human understanding.
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      06-18-2013, 10:56 AM   #57
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Quote:
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I'm an atheist and find that the majority of hard-core atheists are more annoying than any christian I know. None of my christian friends has ever argued with me, or tried to convert me, but the atheist I know are always ready to 'engage' and argue... it is annoying. I don't believe, and many of my good friends do, we poke some good natured fun at each other, especially if we are out drinking, but I would never insult their believes, and they'd never try to drag me to church.
I'm a christian and find that the majority of hard-core christians are more annoying than any atheist I know. None of my atheist friends have ever argued with me, or tried to convert me, but the christians I know are always ready to 'engage' and argue... it is annoying. I believe, and many of my good friends don't, we poke some good natured fun at each other, especially if we are out drinking, but I would never insult their believes, and they'd never try to stop me from going to church.

You see what I did there

The self righteous are usually found on the extreme ends of the religious/non-religious spectrum. Regardless of your believes, self-righteousness always makes for an undesirable character.
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      06-18-2013, 11:04 AM   #58
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I'm also a very lazy un-dedicated atheist... the one who simply doesn't give a shit what anybody believes, or doesn't believe.
I fall into this camp as well. I actually enjoy the study of religions and their history but nothing beyond that. I'm actually kind of weirded out by people who are uber-religious.
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      06-18-2013, 11:27 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Plutonium View Post
I'm an atheist and find that the majority of hard-core atheists are more annoying than any christian I know. None of my christian friends has ever argued with me, or tried to convert me, but the atheist I know are always ready to 'engage' and argue... it is annoying. I don't believe, and many of my good friends do, we poke some good natured fun at each other, especially if we are out drinking, but I would never insult their believes, and they'd never try to drag me to church.

Wars a fought over everything and anything, if it isn't religion we'd find something else as an excuse. A lot of good is being done in the world in the name of religion, and religion helped some of my family members through very dark times, and for that I'm very grateful.

The whole science vs. religion argument is silly, an easy crutch for us atheists. Many scientist are religious, they have no problems believing, and dealing with hard facts.

In conclusion... when I'm at a party I'll find the vocal atheist who thinks he is superior right away, but nobody ever comes up and says he or she is a christian, muslim, buddhist, etc...
Hard to argue with this. Look at this, a Christian and Atheist agreeing on something.

I've felt that all atheists felt THEY were the superior ones. Of course the only atheists i've met are the ones who tell me i'm a feeble excuse for a human because i'm so week minded that i need to believe in God. I've always viewed it more difficult to believe than not to believe. And that the week one was the one who convinced themselves that we have all the answers. I'm not saying that all atheists claim that, but most seem to think science has proved enough to discount God all together.

I'm sure there are many atheists out there like TP. They are the ones who weighed the information they've learned and made a decision. All without begrudging anyone who has made a different decision.

On a separate note, i hypothosised this morning that maybe the reason some people feel that christians have a "better than you" attitude may be because of the possible consequences of the two being wrong. When arguing with an athesist the outcome of the debate is meaninless to me. From my stand point, not only have christianly duties of spreading the gospel been done. But should i be wrong i'm worm food when i die. If the atheist is wrong they may have an eternity of hell to look forward to. So maybe the indefernce of the outcome of the debate makes christians comes off as smug or superior.

Lastly, internet forums aside, most atheists and christians don't get very deep in arguments and get along just fine in real life. It's much easier to insult people on the internet than it is face to face.
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      06-18-2013, 11:53 AM   #60
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^+1

Good for you - and I get how profound that could be. You never know as well - you might experience a change of heart somewhere down the road yourself.
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      06-18-2013, 11:53 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Tonka View Post
Hard to argue with this. Look at this, a Christian and Atheist agreeing on something.

I've felt that all atheists felt THEY were the superior ones. Of course the only atheists i've met are the ones who tell me i'm a feeble excuse for a human because i'm so week minded that i need to believe in God. I've always viewed it more difficult to believe than not to believe. And that the week one was the one who convinced themselves that we have all the answers. I'm not saying that all atheists claim that, but most seem to think science has proved enough to discount God all together.

I'm sure there are many atheists out there like TP. They are the ones who weighed the information they've learned and made a decision. All without begrudging anyone who has made a different decision.

On a separate note, i hypothosised this morning that maybe the reason some people feel that christians have a "better than you" attitude may be because of the possible consequences of the two being wrong. When arguing with an athesist the outcome of the debate is meaninless to me. From my stand point, not only have christianly duties of spreading the gospel been done. But should i be wrong i'm worm food when i die. If the atheist is wrong they may have an eternity of hell to look forward to. So maybe the indefernce of the outcome of the debate makes christians comes off as smug or superior.

Lastly, internet forums aside, most atheists and christians don't get very deep in arguments and get along just fine in real life. It's much easier to insult people on the internet than it is face to face.
+1 to everything said here. Interesting idea with the weighted outcomes.

As for the bolded part, I wish it were true. I've had friends discussing sermons with each other (say, after church) outside only to have atheists come up to them and yell "you're full of shit", etc etc. so much hatred. Still don't understand those ones.

Aside from that, the vulgar ones, I agree this isn't that intense in real life.
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      06-18-2013, 12:11 PM   #62
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But should i be wrong i'm worm food when i die. If the atheist is wrong they may have an eternity of hell to look forward to.
What makes you say that? Not trying to provoke or aggravate, I'm genuinely curious.

There are many different religions, with many different Gods. An unfortunate theme that runs thru almost all of them is that "their" God is the one and only true God, and if you worship someone else, you are wrong. Looking back over history (ie: crusades, etc), it seems the only thing that pisses people off more than not having a God at all, is worshipping the "wrong" God.

If a Christian is wrong, then they get the non-harmful worm food outcome ONLY if there turns out to be no other Gods whatsoever. But, clearly there are more than 2 possible outcomes (it's not a case of: Christian God, or no God at all. It's not a 50:50 bet.).

If one of the many other religions is right, and there seems to be just as good odds of that, especially considering sheer numbers of followers, then when you arrive at the pearly gates (or whatever their equivalent is) the gatekeeper may really have his knickers in a knot if you chose the wrong one, and you might be banised to eternal hellfire (or whatever their equivalent is) just like a non-believer would be.

Perhaps the only safe option, if you are truly concerned about any afterlife, is to be an Agnostic. An argument with the gatekeeper that you took no sides and were neutral may go farther than picking the wrong side. Since it's not a 50:50 bet, mathematically, your odds of being wrong are greater than your odds of being right.
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      06-18-2013, 12:32 PM   #63
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What makes you say that? Not trying to provoke or aggravate, I'm genuinely curious.

There are many different religions, with many different Gods. An unfortunate theme that runs thru almost all of them is that "their" God is the one and only true God, and if you worship someone else, you are wrong. Looking back over history (ie: crusades, etc), it seems the only thing that pisses people off more than not having a God at all, is worshipping the "wrong" God.

If a Christian is wrong, then they get the non-harmful worm food outcome ONLY if there turns out to be no other Gods whatsoever. But, clearly there are more than 2 possible outcomes (it's not a case of: Christian God, or no God at all. It's not a 50:50 bet.).

If one of the many other religions is right, and there seems to be just as good odds of that, especially considering sheer numbers of followers, then when you arrive at the pearly gates (or whatever their equivalent is) the gatekeeper may really have his knickers in a knot if you chose the wrong one, and you might be banised to eternal hellfire (or whatever their equivalent is) just like a non-believer would be.

Perhaps the only safe option, if you are truly concerned about any afterlife, is to be an Agnostic. An argument with the gatekeeper that you took no sides and were neutral may go farther than picking the wrong side. Since it's not a 50:50 bet, mathematically, your odds of being wrong are greater than your odds of being right.
I say that because the hypothetical conversation was between an Atheist and a Christian.

It wasn't a hypothetical that started with "so a buddhist, muslim, atheist and catholic walk into a bar..."
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      06-18-2013, 12:46 PM   #64
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1) if for them their Christianity means spending their spare time doing charity work and rolling up their sleeves to help the poor and suffering, then I will admire them as good Christians.
'Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.'
-James 1:27
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      06-18-2013, 12:59 PM   #65
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It wasn't a hypothetical that started with "so a buddhist, muslim, atheist and catholic walk into a bar..."
...and the bartender takes one look at them, and proclaims in a loud voice "What is this, some kind of joke?!"
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      06-18-2013, 01:17 PM   #66
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apply my previous statement of i wouldn't call Christians the most educated people in the world though here.

called it....
except i'm not Christian
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