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      06-18-2013, 01:22 PM   #67
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      06-18-2013, 01:26 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Tonka View Post
Actually, science, by it's very nature can't disprove anything.

I don't know about your country but here in 'murica, religion is not taught in schools.

Also, people strap bombs on them for many reasons, for some, they twist their religion into God allowing them to do so.


The scientific method was developed by cultures who widely accepted God or gods. In fact probably before you were born, it was a priest who proposed the big bang theory.

FYI, for the most part, science is based on theories, some are accepted, which doesn't mean they are fact. When they are accepted it simply means they can't disprove that particular theory....yet.

So what you're saying is when science states something to be true and then changes it's position it's commendable, but when the church does it they lose all credibility? Really? It was not long ago when the best scientists in the world agreed that the earth was flat and that the earth was the center of the universe.

Since science can't disprove anything, it can only suggest an alternate theory. This means by your estimation, we as humans, within a few generations, will have a total and complete understanding of our universe, space, the origin of life, etc... And these theories will all be widely accepted and all will be able to be proved beyond a shadow of a doubt. Yet just 30 years ago the only planets known to exist were in our solar system. Yeah, seems plausible.


Are you kidding me!?! Tribes don't kill each other?!?! What rock do you live under?
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Originally Posted by Templar View Post
What? Yes, they do. They fight over resources all the time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yanomam%C3%B6



With or without religion, people can be quite violent and will kill each other. It's true that a lot of major wars have been fought over religion, but I wouldn't take it as far as saying that without religion everyone would be peaceful.

There has always been some sort of "religion" or belief in a higher power. In ancient mesopotamia when people actually started to become a true society, they built monuments and ziggurats to deities of the sun and moon. It's in human nature to believe in a higher power to justify their lives, and it's not going away anytime soon.

i meant within their community..

and its true that they did believe in higher powers when they couldnt explain something.. see the rain dance, or lunar eclipses etc.. when science eventually explained that, we were like oh ok, so its the moon that is blocking the sun or the shade of the earth, not some god passing in front of it with a chariot!!

what i'm saying is that science does not have the answer to everything.. but what science cannot answer it does not mean that church can.
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      06-18-2013, 01:29 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Plutonium View Post
I'm going to hell either way.
I wouldn't be so sure

I am muslim, and one of the main traits of god, in my religion at least, is that he is forgiving, and merciful.
and contrary to what you may hear from the dumbass ignorant fanatical muslims
I don't believe that if we are right, that all chrisitians/jews will go to hell
you mean to tell me that this merciful, forgiving god will take roughly 1.5 billion muslims to heaven and burn the other 6 billion people?
or that he will take the 2 billion chrisitians to heaven and throw the other 5.5 billion in hell?
or worse, take 30 million jews to heaven and throw the remaining 7.5 billion on hell?
no way
I honestly believe that good people will go to heaven, and bad people will go to hell.
I have nothing to back that up, but then again
I am dumb for believing in god according to some users here
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      06-18-2013, 01:33 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MiddleAgedAl View Post
There are many different religions, with many different Gods. An unfortunate theme that runs thru almost all of them is that "their" God is the one and only true God, and if you worship someone else, you are wrong. Looking back over history (ie: crusades, etc), it seems the only thing that pisses people off more than not having a God at all, is worshipping the "wrong" God.
not true for muslims though
we worship the same god as Christians and Jews
the only sticking point is jesus being the son of god (in Christianity) or being just a messenger (like moses, and Mohamed) in islam.
Most Christians (at least here in the US) think muslims worship a different god, and that we worship Mohamed as well.
we don't
and believe it or not we believe in Moses, and Jesus, and Mohamed

the sad thing is those 3 religions have sooooo much in common
and yet believers prefer to kill each other, than to work together
sad really
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      06-18-2013, 01:57 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by panicos81 View Post
i meant within their community..

and its true that they did believe in higher powers when they couldnt explain something.. see the rain dance, or lunar eclipses etc.. when science eventually explained that, we were like oh ok, so its the moon that is blocking the sun or the shade of the earth, not some god passing in front of it with a chariot!!

what i'm saying is that science does not have the answer to everything.. but what science cannot answer it does not mean that church can.
Sure, beating and branding their women into submission is not violent at all... Tribes of that same type fight with each other, so even people with the same beliefs are fighting (and capturing and raping their women).

I get what you're saying, but you chose a poor example to back your statement up...
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      06-18-2013, 02:53 PM   #72
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      06-18-2013, 02:54 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
I am muslim, and one of the main traits of god, in my religion at least, is that he is forgiving, and merciful.
and contrary to what you may hear from the dumbass ignorant fanatical muslims
I don't believe that if we are right, that all chrisitians/jews will go to hell
you mean to tell me that this merciful, forgiving god will take roughly 1.5 billion muslims to heaven and burn the other 6 billion people?
or that he will take the 2 billion chrisitians to heaven and throw the other 5.5 billion in hell?
or worse, take 30 million jews to heaven and throw the remaining 7.5 billion on hell?
This is an interesting point. I've always wondered how some could worship a being who could possibly be so cruel & punitive, (assuming they are correct in the notion that if you dont worship that specific God, then when you die, you will be punished for such a lack of respect by going to hell forever.)

I hear what kmarei is saying, but I've also spoken to those who read fluent Arabic, and tell me that the untranslated Quaran has passages in it that are not consistent with the general principles forgiveness & mercy he describes above, so I dont know.

Much of what happened during the Crusades is also inconsistent with the general principles of "being a good Christian" as we think of it today. Anyone who thinks Christianity has always been a friend to science, well tell that to Galileo, who died in prison for being convicted of Heresy for suggesting the Sun does not revolve around the earth. The bible itself did not change since then, but obviously the way people choose to interpret it have. Who knows how it will be interpreted 300 years from now ?

I hope that if there is in fact a God, he/she does not turn out to have such harsh judgement on people, some of whom may be doing good things. There are Church going believers who dont do a lot of good, or help others. There are some Athiests who do help humanity a lot, in some cases more than certain religious people do. To think that a God would look at your belief, and decide that Murderer A who "found God" in prison will be forgiven and rewarded, whereas Atheist B who spent a life helping others, is banished to eternal hellfire for not believing, that is just as wrong as it gets. I'd rather believe there is no God at all, than one who so is so selfish and cruel. So, since I'd wish for no God at all instead of such an unjust/harsh God, I could be considered an Anti-Theist.

I understand the comfort that beliefs bring people, but I cant seem to share it as I cant reconcile in my head the bad & grossly inconsistent stuff that goes along with those choices.
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      06-18-2013, 03:08 PM   #74
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      06-18-2013, 03:41 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
not true for muslims though
we worship the same god as Christians and Jews
the only sticking point is jesus being the son of god (in Christianity) or being just a messenger (like moses, and Mohamed) in islam.
Most Christians (at least here in the US) think muslims worship a different god, and that we worship Mohamed as well.
we don't
and believe it or not we believe in Moses, and Jesus, and Mohamed

the sad thing is those 3 religions have sooooo much in common
and yet believers prefer to kill each other, than to work together
sad really

There are commonalities, certainly (as there are in most religions to some extent), but ultimately they are different religions and I believe the God I worship is different from the God you worship. As an example, I believe in the Trinity - God the Father, God the Son (ie. Jesus), and God the Holy Spirit - and these are three and yet one. If they are one, then Jesus is not simply some messenger. Thus our God's are different I would argue. It would be interesting to understand more about your faith in terms of what you believe - I'm certain the deeper we go, the more differences we would uncover.

But effectively, I would disagree with your hypothesis that good people will go to heaven and bad people will go to hell. Yes, bad people will go to hell - and hey, arguably, "good" people will go to heaven I suppose, but my definition of good probably differs substantially from yours.

The way I see it is that we have all sinned, we are all deserving of hell based on our actions and thus all 8.X billion of us are going there. But then a loving God provided a saviour in the form of His own Son whom he sent to live a blameless life, who died on a cross, and rose again. And thus for those who choose to accept this gift and acknowledge that they are in need of Christ and that there is nothing they can do on their own who can be saved. For these people, they are then deemed "good", but it is through Christ and not of themselves or their actions that they are good.

That's my $0.02 on it anyways - I know there are others who would disagree, and I get that - its just simply my belief. And if I'm wrong, then as 1 Corinthians 15:19 states "If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied." But I don't believe I'm wrong, and I see evidence of God in this world and cannot see or comprehend how everything in this world could work the way it does without some divine creator behind it.
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      06-18-2013, 06:45 PM   #76
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What I find somewhat amusing is that it's always a benevolent God. What if God is a dick? What if you get to heaven and see God trippin on bath salts eating everyones face?

After all isn't the saying absolute power corrupts absolutely?
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      06-18-2013, 11:32 PM   #77
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I've always found that fact (and science) are supported by Christianity, not vice-versa. The Judeo/Christian bible is actually a collection of 66 books, written by 39+ authors, over a period of 2,000 years. The books cross-reference each other, and the vast majority of prophecy in the bible has already been fulfilled. The Dead Sea Scrolls (among about 1,000 other things) proved the accuracy of the bible, as their text was exactly the same as the bible we read today. It's not one book, written by one man.

The Jews have been spread all over the planet and terribly persecuted for the past 2,000+ years. There's never been more than 15 million on the earth at the same time. And yet they are still a recognizable population - God's chosen people.

As for God's character - the first part of the first book of the bible describes the fall of man. The rest of the book(s) are about God pursuing man to rebuild the relationship, for the good of man. He's not some bizarre egotist, but rather like a loving parent.

But we all have the freedom to choose what we believe. I would hope we all make an informed choice.
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      06-19-2013, 01:34 AM   #78
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I hear the crusades mentioned a lot by atheists (and by Dawkins) as a primary reason for the destruction Christianity can inflict on nations and people.

Might i remind everyone here that when the Roman Empire fell, power was shifted (transfer of rule) to the Roman Catholic Church. The Holy Roman Empire was from the 9th to 19th century. Because of the collapse of Rome, the highest seat of power no longer became that of emperor, but of pope. And because of this fact, every imaginable [corrupt] person gravitated towards reigning in as Pope. This is where all the power lay, and this is where a lot of historic power struggles were fought over. It is in my opinion that if Rome had never been taken, you might not have seen the crusades. The church would never have assumed that kind of power, and the corrupt never would have sought its seat. They would have continued murdering one another to be emperor of Rome (of which you all know happened frequently).

Religion may have been the proclaimed motivation behind the crusades, and certainly romanticized that way, but do not forget that it was equally (if not more so) influenced by a strong desire for power by those outside the church, regardless of whether or not that person was Christian (and I think you can find a plethora of historic popes who were obviously corrupt and gained seat as pope for power, money, fame, etc, and not in the remotest there to act as representation of Christian values).
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      06-19-2013, 03:03 AM   #79
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I hate to be in this religious debate but what good has Christianity achieved? I post this question because I don't understand it enough and would like to learn more. To be clear, I believe in aliens.
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      06-19-2013, 03:27 AM   #80
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Quote:
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what good has Christianity achieved?
Vancouver, Hong Kong, BMW .. English, Internet .. you get the idea


To me, God is more believable than aliens..
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      06-19-2013, 05:45 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by shah269 View Post
Looking at people’s names and locations this forum appears to be filled with very diverse group of people….which I have to say is very refreshing!
Hell there are even two girls here! Who knew!

Anyhow…I grew up in the (SPIT) Islamic (FUCKING) Republic of Iran. I had the great pleasure of being in Iran during the Iran and Iraq war. If you are too young to know what that is look it up. Long story short 1 million people died because some looser spoke to his imaginary friend. As such I have a very bad taste in my mouth when some ignoramus starts talking about the virtues of a theocracy.
Now that said…..I also find it very offensive when people introduce themselves at “Joe Dick and I am a Christian”.
I half feel like saying “I am Shah…self proclaimed ruler of the universe” ….yeah good luck proving me wrong with that one!

Am I the only one offended by this type of introduction or are there others like me?
What do people outside of the US feel about this?
Nope, you are not alone. Unfortunately it's fashionable to claim to be christian hear in the States, and to have a "personal relationship" with god... I dunno what that means, but it's important.

I try really hard to just move on, let it go. 80% of Americans claim to be christian, and America is supposed to be a melting pot and all of that so I just move on.

Besides, you challenge a Stateside Christians beliefs and you're begging for a disjointed, barely comprehensible gathering of sound bite theology and something they heard on the radio once. Most "christians" are extremely defensive as they have never really thought about "what" they claim to believe, have little to no education, and it's something they simply say they are... Like being from Texas or something. No thought, no study, just following.

SO try not to let it get to you, easier said I know, but it's a loosing proposition to get tangled up and waste your time trying to fill an empty head with logic, or actual critical thinking.
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      06-19-2013, 06:15 AM   #82
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Circa ~2010. Took then GF home to Pittsburgh from Bible belt of NC. Went to Natural history Museum. Dinosaur bones everywhere... Science has proven they exsisted etc... She said she didn't believe in them as they are not mentioned in Bible. I got rid of here when we got back to NC. I could not believe it. Spent a little over a year with her.
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      06-19-2013, 08:04 AM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Revlis View Post
Nope, you are not alone. Unfortunately it's fashionable to claim to be christian hear in the States, and to have a "personal relationship" with god... I dunno what that means, but it's important.

I try really hard to just move on, let it go. 80% of Americans claim to be christian, and America is supposed to be a melting pot and all of that so I just move on.

Besides, you challenge a Stateside Christians beliefs and you're begging for a disjointed, barely comprehensible gathering of sound bite theology and something they heard on the radio once. Most "christians" are extremely defensive as they have never really thought about "what" they claim to believe, have little to no education, and it's something they simply say they are... Like being from Texas or something. No thought, no study, just following.

SO try not to let it get to you, easier said I know, but it's a loosing proposition to get tangled up and waste your time trying to fill an empty head with logic, or actual critical thinking.
If it weren't so offensive, this post would almost be comical.

BTW, you were unsuccessful in moving on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxrus14 View Post
Circa ~2010. Took then GF home to Pittsburgh from Bible belt of NC. Went to Natural history Museum. Dinosaur bones everywhere... Science has proven they exsisted etc... She said she didn't believe in them as they are not mentioned in Bible. I got rid of here when we got back to NC. I could not believe it. Spent a little over a year with her.
Yet, here is an example of what the post above is talking about. America is doomed since she represents 80% of it's inhabitants.
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      06-19-2013, 10:09 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Dashman View Post
He is, but not for kufr al lah. You should know that.
you are correct
I got confused, I thought he was the one that said he was agnostic

sorry Team Plutonium, you're going straight to hell
just food for thought
that' where all the sluts will be, so it can't all be bad
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      06-19-2013, 10:17 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Joekerr View Post
There are commonalities, certainly (as there are in most religions to some extent), but ultimately they are different religions and I believe the God I worship is different from the God you worship. As an example, I believe in the Trinity - God the Father, God the Son (ie. Jesus), and God the Holy Spirit - and these are three and yet one. If they are one, then Jesus is not simply some messenger. Thus our God's are different I would argue. It would be interesting to understand more about your faith in terms of what you believe - I'm certain the deeper we go, the more differences we would uncover.
well the only difference is your version is divisible by 3, ours isn't
ours it what you referred to as "and these are three and yet one"
that really is the only huge sticking point

the parts about adam and eve, moses, etc are all the same
and if you can ignore the trinity aspect, most of what you say jesus did
we also believe in (basically the acts/miracles he did in his life)
the story of Mary etc

Believe it or not, Jesus is very highly respected in Islam.
And he is certainly top 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joekerr View Post
But effectively, I would disagree with your hypothesis that good people will go to heaven and bad people will go to hell. Yes, bad people will go to hell - and hey, arguably, "good" people will go to heaven I suppose, but my definition of good probably differs substantially from yours.

The way I see it is that we have all sinned, we are all deserving of hell based on our actions and thus all 8.X billion of us are going there. But then a loving God provided a saviour in the form of His own Son whom he sent to live a blameless life, who died on a cross, and rose again. And thus for those who choose to accept this gift and acknowledge that they are in need of Christ and that there is nothing they can do on their own who can be saved. For these people, they are then deemed "good", but it is through Christ and not of themselves or their actions that they are good. .
damn, that's a pretty depressing view point
so we are all fucked, but Jesus will save some us only?
kind of makes the whole point of life pointless no?

No matter what you do, you're failing the test
but the teacher will pick a select few failures and give them a passing grade?
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      06-19-2013, 10:21 AM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Revlis View Post
Nope, you are not alone. Unfortunately it's fashionable to claim to be christian hear in the States, and to have a "personal relationship" with god... I dunno what that means, but it's important.

I try really hard to just move on, let it go. 80% of Americans claim to be christian, and America is supposed to be a melting pot and all of that so I just move on.

Besides, you challenge a Stateside Christians beliefs and you're begging for a disjointed, barely comprehensible gathering of sound bite theology and something they heard on the radio once. Most "christians" are extremely defensive as they have never really thought about "what" they claim to believe, have little to no education, and it's something they simply say they are... Like being from Texas or something. No thought, no study, just following.

SO try not to let it get to you, easier said I know, but it's a loosing proposition to get tangled up and waste your time trying to fill an empty head with logic, or actual critical thinking.
Comedy at its finest right here...
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      06-19-2013, 10:24 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MiddleAgedAl View Post
This is an interesting point. I've always wondered how some could worship a being who could possibly be so cruel & punitive, (assuming they are correct in the notion that if you dont worship that specific God, then when you die, you will be punished for such a lack of respect by going to hell forever.)

I hear what kmarei is saying, but I've also spoken to those who read fluent Arabic, and tell me that the untranslated Quaran has passages in it that are not consistent with the general principles forgiveness & mercy he describes above, so I dont know.
Well there are a lot of stories in the bible that would shock most people.
if anyone is interested, I can quote them

And yes, there are similar stories in the Quran too
but the overlying premises is that god is forgiving.

I will say it in a different way

let's assume that there is a god
some being with a higher power, that created the universe(s) with everything in them
I think its also safe to assume that he is better than us
so he is smarter, wiser, more forgiving, etc
now let me ask you this
based on the above criteria
if you had the power to send all the Christians, or muslims, or jews to hell
for eternity
would you do it?
I might be going out on a limb here, but I think it's safe to say that none of us could do that
I know I couldn't

based on that, I truly believe that he, also, would not do that
now don't go quoting on this come judgment day
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This user has been banned from the 4 series forum because he doesn't sing its merits like the admins want us all to

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      06-19-2013, 10:46 AM   #88
kits135i
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I am just tired of hearing about people getting offended. Who cares. Stop trying to find things to get pissed about. Let things go and be happy with who you are and stop careing what other people think.
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