E90Post
 


MINHS Auto Care Center
 
BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > BIMMERPOST Universal Forums > General Automotive (non-BMW) Talk + Photos/Videos > A glimmer of hope for manual enthusiasts



Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      07-11-2013, 11:04 AM   #1
davesaddiction
is fast cars
 
davesaddiction's Avatar
 
Drives: '08 E90 M3 6MT SSII BPM Stg II
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Tulsa

Posts: 1,495
iTrader: (0)

Arrow A glimmer of hope for manual enthusiasts

The whole world (including the US) is buying less and less manual transmissions in recent years. Thankfully, enthusiasts here and across the pond are doing their best to keep it available as an option, and the take-rate has leveled off, and even come up a bit.

"In 1987, 29.1% of new vehicles sold in the U.S. were manual transmission, according to the EPA. By 2010, however, the rate had fallen to just 3.8%.

It appears as though something of a stick-shift renaissance has since occurred, with 5.1% of new cars being manual last year. And a new report from Edmunds.com indicates that stick shifts are on pace to account for roughly 7% of cars sold in 2012."

http://business.time.com/2012/08/02/...e-stick-shift/

"The vehicle with the highest percentage of manual sales so far this year is the brand new Subaru BRZ. Seventy percent of BRZs sold are equipped with a manual transmission.

“The manuals are running very high,” Subaru product communications boss, Dominick Infante said.

That is a skewed number since the BRZ just came out, and most of the buyers are early adopters. “We think that over time that number will change a bit,” said Infante.

The mechanical twin of the BRZ is enjoying a lesser take-rate, likely due to the increased number of cars moved. To-date, 52-percent of Scion FR-S models are sold with a manual transmission. While the manual transmission is the most engaging option on the FR-S, the automatic certainly isn’t a boring slushbox. Also, both the automatic FR-S and the BRZ get better fuel-economy ratings than their manual transmission counterparts.

According to the numbers, these are just about the only vehicles that enjoy a manual transmission take-rate above 50 percent – with much of the reason likely due to early-adopter enthusiast-types.

The Ford Mustang, both the V6 and GT, have a 50-50 split right down the middle between automatics and manuals, as does the Volkswagen GTI, which is available with a quick-shifting dual-clutch automatic."

"Instead of just relying on the German automaker’s impressive PDK dual-clutch automated gearbox, they also developed a manual transmission that boasts the best of the fuel-saving PDK, and the engagement that the enthusiast craves.

“We still have a fair percentage of customers who prefer a manual transmission,” Twork said. “In the 911, this is between 30-40 percent depending on where the car is in its lifecycle.”"

http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2...on-doomed.html

As long as there are enough people who want to drive them, and are willing to buy them, they'll be around for us.

But the kids are our future, right? As old gearheads die off, who's going to take their place? Sometimes I wonder what percentage of kids are actually learning to drive a manual these days.

Moral of the story: if you like driving a manual, keep buying them, and teach your kids to drive one!
__________________
Daddy's Rocket Sled! _
Clarkson: "It is... pretty much perfect... Why don't I have one of these cars?"
Harris: "The saloon is definitely the M3 of choice."
davesaddiction is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      07-11-2013, 11:38 AM   #2
gonzo
Brigadier General
 
gonzo's Avatar
 
Drives: as many as possible
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: TeXXXas

Posts: 4,980
iTrader: (0)

Neither of my older brothers sons can drive stick.
One is 20 the other 15. Sad.

Old days story.

My dad put all three of us boys in an old vw bug we kept at our ranch.
I was about 6 and could barely see what was in front of me.

Those were the days.
__________________
Crazy Diamond
gonzo is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      07-11-2013, 11:54 AM   #3
davesaddiction
is fast cars
 
davesaddiction's Avatar
 
Drives: '08 E90 M3 6MT SSII BPM Stg II
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Tulsa

Posts: 1,495
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by gonzo View Post
Neither of my older brothers sons can drive stick.
One is 20 the other 15. Sad.

Old days story.

My dad put all three of us boys in an old vw bug we kept at our ranch.
I was about 6 and could barely see what was in front of me.

Those were the days.
That's a great memory - I'm taking my older two up to a relative's ranch in Colorado in a few days. Probably won't be driving any cars around just yet, but will get to help drive the 4-wheeler (and ride some horses). Can't wait.
davesaddiction is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      07-11-2013, 12:17 PM   #4
gonzo
Brigadier General
 
gonzo's Avatar
 
Drives: as many as possible
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: TeXXXas

Posts: 4,980
iTrader: (0)

I learned this a looonnnng time ago.

No matter if it is as simple as a golf game or dinner date or more such as a vacation, that if people have SOMETHING to look forward to..they will be happier.

Sometimes I can get happy by thinking about seeing my dog.
He's a good ol feller.lol
__________________
Crazy Diamond
gonzo is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      07-11-2013, 12:28 PM   #5
davesaddiction
is fast cars
 
davesaddiction's Avatar
 
Drives: '08 E90 M3 6MT SSII BPM Stg II
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Tulsa

Posts: 1,495
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by gonzo View Post
I learned this a looonnnng time ago.

No matter if it is as simple as a golf game or dinner date or more such as a vacation, that if people have SOMETHING to look forward to..they will be happier.

Sometimes I can get happy by thinking about seeing my dog.
He's a good ol feller.lol
I look forward to driving my car at least twice a day.
davesaddiction is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      07-11-2013, 12:45 PM   #6
Efthreeoh
Brigadier General
 
Drives: E90
Join Date: May 2012
Location: MARLAND

Posts: 3,054
iTrader: (0)

Not to throw water on this fire, but considering the F30 comes in standard configuration as an automatic, the life of the manual transmission is dead. The manufaturers will stop offering the choice due to fuel consumption regs. It is obvious that manufacturers will do anything to gain just 1 mpg (i.e. Electric steering).
Efthreeoh is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      07-12-2013, 02:47 PM   #7
nicknaz
Brigadier General
 
Drives: 2012 Z4 35i
Join Date: May 2008
Location: San Diego CA

Posts: 3,861
iTrader: (0)

Two clutches + flappy paddles is not a future to be mourning (if the tech is implemented like Porsche PDK and not Ford Focus PowerShift)
nicknaz is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      07-12-2013, 09:40 PM   #8
Year's_End
RWD only.
 
Year's_End's Avatar
 
Drives: '08 E92 335i
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: St. Pete, FL

Posts: 12,237
iTrader: (0)

Well I'm dead set on either a 6MT WRB BRZ or a DCT Pure White MkVII GTI within one year's time from now. I've got 10k ready so far for a down payment... decisions, decisions.
Year's_End is online now   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      07-13-2013, 04:06 AM   #9
Snaggletooth
General Nuisance
 
Snaggletooth's Avatar
 
Drives: 2007 E92 335i
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Orange County, CA

Posts: 277
iTrader: (0)

As long as bikes are manual, cars will be manual too. I converted to a manual car after a few years on a bike. I'm 23 and there are plenty of guys like me.
__________________
'07 E92 335i 6MT
Full Bolt On's, Vargas Stage 2's, Carbon Fiber, and Methanol.
Snaggletooth is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      07-19-2013, 01:59 PM   #10
dhomoney
New Member
 
Drives: 2007 335i Sedan
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Park Hill, OK

Posts: 18
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2011 BMW M3  [0.00]
I'm older than snaggle, at 35, but I love my manual. You feel so much more connected to the car, the road, the joy of the drive that you completely lose in an automatic even with so spanky new double clutch flappy paddle. No thanks, give me the lever in the floor.
dhomoney is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      07-23-2013, 12:38 PM   #11
davesaddiction
is fast cars
 
davesaddiction's Avatar
 
Drives: '08 E90 M3 6MT SSII BPM Stg II
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Tulsa

Posts: 1,495
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Not to throw water on this fire, but considering the F30 comes in standard configuration as an automatic, the life of the manual transmission is dead. The manufaturers will stop offering the choice due to fuel consumption regs. It is obvious that manufacturers will do anything to gain just 1 mpg (i.e. Electric steering).
It's business. As long as there are enough enthusiasts to purchase them, they'll keep building them. And if the big makers don't see the money in it anymore, small makers will keep offering it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nicknaz View Post
Two clutches + flappy paddles is not a future to be mourning (if the tech is implemented like Porsche PDK and not Ford Focus PowerShift)
I cannot deny the awesomeness; I can only mourn all the atrophying left legs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Year's_End View Post
Well I'm dead set on either a 6MT WRB BRZ or a DCT Pure White MkVII GTI within one year's time from now. I've got 10k ready so far for a down payment... decisions, decisions.
Both fine choices.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaggletooth View Post
As long as bikes are manual, cars will be manual too. I converted to a manual car after a few years on a bike. I'm 23 and there are plenty of guys like me.
I like the way you think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dhomoney View Post
I'm older than snaggle, at 35, but I love my manual. You feel so much more connected to the car, the road, the joy of the drive that you completely lose in an automatic even with so spanky new double clutch flappy paddle. No thanks, give me the lever in the floor.
davesaddiction is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      07-23-2013, 04:29 PM   #12
TK-421
Registered Sex Offender
 
Drives: E46 M3 | 1JZ S13
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Tampa, FL

Posts: 4,765
iTrader: (0)

If I can't clutch kick it I don't want it.
__________________
Stop putting stuff like painted reflectors and premium package in your signature. You're embarrassing.
TK-421 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      07-23-2013, 05:20 PM   #13
AZ135
REALTOR
 
AZ135's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 Jag XF Supercharged
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Scottsdale, AZ

Posts: 371
iTrader: (1)

I just bought my first non-manual car and it's depressing. I'm a Realtor and a manual isn't that practical when driving clients around and multi-tasking, but at least the 470 hp in my XF helps a bit. It's just not as connected as a manual. I have a feeling that a 2nd car with a stick is in my future.
AZ135 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      07-23-2013, 06:06 PM   #14
dcleminson
DMan
 
dcleminson's Avatar
 
Drives: Awaiting M4 With Anticipation
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Australia

Posts: 6
iTrader: (0)

Send a message via Skype™ to dcleminson
Quote:
Originally Posted by dhomoney View Post
I'm older than snaggle, at 35, but I love my manual. You feel so much more connected to the car, the road, the joy of the drive that you completely lose in an automatic even with so spanky new double clutch flappy paddle. No thanks, give me the lever in the floor.
The difference between the M3 and the M335i is worlds apart. If you are looking for a DSG that drives like a manual you need to get into a M3/4....

You may have seen this video....Sebastien Loeb’s new record at Pikes Peak

http://www.speedcafe.com/2013/07/02/...t-pilkes-peak/

Well worth a look. Same gear box technology as the M3 ......almost instantaneous!!

dcleminson is offline   Australia
0
Reply With Quote
      07-27-2013, 04:46 PM   #15
track_warrior
Captain
 
track_warrior's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 M3
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: San Antonio, TX

Posts: 665
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by gonzo View Post
Neither of my older brothers sons can drive stick.
One is 20 the other 15. Sad.

Old days story.

My dad put all three of us boys in an old vw bug we kept at our ranch.
I was about 6 and could barely see what was in front of me.

Those were the days.
It will be funny when they go to europe some day and try to rent a car, most of the cars at the rental places are manual transmission .
__________________
l 2014 F31 328d X-drive M-sport l 2014 F30 328d M-Sport l 2012 VW Golf Tdi l 1997 E-420 Sport l 2014 Touareg Tdi Armoured Level B5 l


Compensating a heavy car with horsepower is like giving an alcoholic cocaine to sober him up...
track_warrior is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      07-27-2013, 07:05 PM   #16
F32
Banned
 
Drives: BMW
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: SF

Posts: 688
iTrader: (0)

It's sad that the manual is dying indeed.

I'm not one to spout off the canned psuedo-enthusiast anti-technology nonsense like you see on Jalopnik every day, but it's awful. Sports cars now require less and less driver involvement, and the little remaining involvement provides less feedback than ever before. Flappy-paddles and electronic traction/braking/suspension systems are great, but their practical application from a performance standpoint is purely for track performance. If all these advances are for quicker laptimes, why stop here? The technology is already out for cars to self-drive. I can guarantee you a self-driving computer system which can interface GPS data for track coordinates and weather conditions along with computer systems monitoring every single parameter can take a car around a track faster than any human with zero human input.

Is that too far?
F32 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      07-27-2013, 11:24 PM   #17
Robert
Major General
 
Drives: 135i, current is350
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Socal

Posts: 6,895
iTrader: (1)

You be lucky if kids need to learn to drive in the future. Google self driving car is the future.
__________________
- There's nothing in my pocket other than knives and lint
Robert is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      07-28-2013, 11:15 AM   #18
IEDEI
TRAGIC FANTASTIC!
 
IEDEI's Avatar
 
Drives: L'Orange 1M
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Brooklyn, NYC

Posts: 2,510
iTrader: (0)

i think enthusiasts should be more open minded about dual clutch gearboxes. i have driven manuals only for many years----and had an A3 with a dual clutch (S-tronic/DSG) gearbox for the past 2 years and i have to say that it was surprisingly fun.....felt race car-like in its shifting.....even though the car itself wasn't really too race-car like! haha.

in my upcoming 135is, i have gone back to a manual gearbox just because i think it suits the car better......but dual clutch gearboxes cannot be compared lazily to 'regular' automatic gearboxes. It is an entirely different thing altogether.

i think enthusiasts should at least be satisfied that there is a GOOD alternative for the cars that will not be sold with a manual----because dual clutch gearboxes are the real deal. the 991 GT3 is dual clutch only....and basically every real performance driven car is now dual clutch only.....it says a lot about the future of automobiles and a helluva lot about these new gearboxes.
__________________
BMW 1M (VO, #374/740)
Audi TT 225 quattro coupe

BMW 135is (SOLD)

IEDEI is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      07-28-2013, 04:08 PM   #19
F32
Banned
 
Drives: BMW
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: SF

Posts: 688
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by IEDEI View Post
i think enthusiasts should be more open minded about dual clutch gearboxes.
No.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IEDEI View Post
......but dual clutch gearboxes cannot be compared lazily to 'regular' automatic gearboxes. It is an entirely different thing altogether.
Really? From a practical standpoint, explain how DCTs differ from traditional automatics aside from the speed in which they shift gears.
F32 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      07-28-2013, 09:15 PM   #20
IEDEI
TRAGIC FANTASTIC!
 
IEDEI's Avatar
 
Drives: L'Orange 1M
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Brooklyn, NYC

Posts: 2,510
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by F32 View Post
No.



Really? From a practical standpoint, explain how DCTs differ from traditional automatics aside from the speed in which they shift gears.
you're kidding right?

a DCT has two wet clutches that are actively engaging at the driver's command. when you shift gears, it is actively shifting gears...UNLIKE a torque converter automatic which does not engage 2 separate clutches which alternate between gears.

have you ever driven a dual clutch gearbox in fully manual mode? it's no different than a manual aside from the fact that there is no clutch. There IS a reason why race cars and the world's greatest performance cars are using dual clutches....it's not JUST about speed, but it's also about immediacy and control. Maximal control is elicited not only by mechanical control, but by accuracy and speed.
__________________
BMW 1M (VO, #374/740)
Audi TT 225 quattro coupe

BMW 135is (SOLD)

IEDEI is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      07-28-2013, 10:26 PM   #21
F32
Banned
 
Drives: BMW
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: SF

Posts: 688
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by IEDEI View Post
you're kidding right?

a DCT has two wet clutches that are actively engaging at the driver's command. when you shift gears, it is actively shifting gears...UNLIKE a torque converter automatic which does not engage 2 separate clutches which alternate between gears.
Thank you for the explanation. I had absolutely no clue what in the world a dual-clutch transmission is and what it did. But now that you told me they have two clutches, I think I have it all figured out.

Now, if you'll read my statement again, you'll see I said "from a practical standpoint," as in the net end result for the user. The nature of a DCT's design makes for very fast up and downshifts. Yes...we know. Now, aside from that, can you name any difference in terms of the act of driving they provide to the end user compared to a modern traditional automatic? I'll save you the trouble...they don't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IEDEI View Post
have you ever driven a dual clutch gearbox in fully manual mode?
Yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IEDEI View Post
it's no different than a manual aside from the fact that there is no clutch.
Really? So the only difference is the lack of a clutch? Interesting.

I didn't know that with a DCT, you also have a standard H to row the gears and lack a computer matching your revs on downshifts or preventing you from over-revving and messing up. Since they're also the same, I didn't know that properly driving a DCT-fitted car was a near art form requiring years and years of practice.

That's what I mean by actual difference. All higher-end slush-box autos have rev-matching on downshifts, will let you select and hold any gear at any time, and provide all the control that DCTs do...just not the immediacy. That's exactly my point. Okay, fine...in a DCT, you also have the luxury of removing your foot from the brake at a traffic-light and not have the car creep forward.
F32 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:49 AM.




e90post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST