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      07-19-2013, 10:40 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Templar View Post
Your assumptions are terrible. You act as if you were there and saw everything first hand.

Are you saying Zimmerman beat himself up?

Prove it.
no but I am saying it might have been an ambush
or it might have been something GZ started
there is no evidence either way, other than GZ testimony
how is that a false assumption?

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Originally Posted by Templar View Post
Zimmerman's statements (won't say testimony because he didn't testify) say that he was jumped while attempting to follow Martin. This was not proven incorrect in the court. Zimmerman was injured in the altercation that followed. Again, not proven incorrect in court.
and you really think it was in GZ best interests to say I started the fight?
it was not proven incorrect in court because the other person there is dead
GZ could have also said TM pulled out a light saber
and it would not have been proven incorrect in court

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Originally Posted by Templar View Post
You need to look at the FACTS of the case and stop the speculation on what you think COULD have happened. In this country, you have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. There is no way, with the evidence provided, that could have been done.
the facts in this case come from one of the 2 people involved in the incident
so I have to look at the other aspects to figure out what happened

if I , or any of you, were in GZs situation
we would be trying out best to make out to be me the victim, trying to do the right thing, and TM being the bad guy
so I CAN'T only look at the facts as spoken by GZ
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      07-19-2013, 10:42 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by KingOfJericho View Post
I'm not going to assume anything because we're discussing a case based on facts. There is no reason for discussing what-ifs.
and where did we get these "FACTS"?
was there a 3rd person involved that I don't know about?
or are they all from GZ himself?
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      07-19-2013, 10:48 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by quagmire View Post
It can't be proven he is guilty of anything. We only have one side of the story. Inconclusive conclusions on whose voice it was before the gunshot. We will probably never know what really happened. Due to the lack of evidence, not guilty is the only choice. We can all speculate on what happened and have our opinions on who was right or wrong, but in the eyes of the law he is innocent. Doesn't mean he actually is innocent. There isn't enough information/evidence for me to say he is innocent or is guilty of manslaughter. But, with the way the law works( and I agree with how it works) he is innocent since there wasn't enough evidence to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.
Oh, i thought you meant that you didn't necessarily thing he was innocent. So i was asking what you thought he was guilty of.

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Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
it's not really out of context
it was said while he was following him
he was armed
he was neighborhood watch
so don't tell me he wasn't at least thinking "not this time punk"



that's not what I meant
I mean when you use a word like that
it shows you are pissed off
which at least to me, confirms he had made up his mind that this kid wasn't getting away this time.
he didn't intend to kill him, I think we can all agree on that
but a fight did break out
he was getting beat, and he chose to pull out his gun and end the fight.
I'm not going to tell you what he was thinking, i can't do that and neither can you.

Yes a fight did break out. Who started that fight does have something to do with who gets charged with what.

Since you like assuming we'll speculate for a moment.

Say GZ did start the fight by grabbing on to TM's shirt. TM punches GZ and he falls to the ground. If i'm GZ, i'm thinking that this kid is now off and running. I would be shocked to find out that while on the ground this kid jumped on top of me and continued beating me. This would lead me to believe that his intentions were not to get away from me and or the police i had called, but to inflict great bodily harm on me and possible kill me. The point is, by law you can start a physical altercation and be justified in using deadly force to end it.

If i had only been trying to block attacks from someone while on my back and they weren't stopping, i would possibly use my concealed weapon to end the beating.
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      07-19-2013, 10:50 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post

if I , or any of you, were in GZs situation
we would be trying out best to make out to be me the victim, trying to do the right thing, and TM being the bad guy
so I CAN'T only look at the facts as spoken by GZ
And neither did the jury.
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      07-19-2013, 10:51 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
and where did we get these "FACTS"?
was there a 3rd person involved that I don't know about?
or are they all from GZ himself?
There were actually ear and eye witnesses and a timeline of phonecalls and audio that corroborate his story but I wouldn't expect you to know that since you clearly haven't done much research on the case.
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      07-19-2013, 10:58 AM   #50
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Kmarei, your attitude seems to be in line with the prosecution. Post case interview with one of the prosecutors.

Quote:
From Special Prosecutor Angela Corey - "The bottom line is,, 'What difference does it make what Trayvon was doing?'" Corey said "He had a right to breathe, to live, to do whatever he wanted to do."
to the bold - We DO NOT have a right to do what ever we want to do. We don't have the right to punch someone because we're pissed that they are following us. We don't have the right to trespass. What kind of place would this be to live in if this were true?!?!

This kind of attitude is rampant throughout this country though.
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      07-19-2013, 11:00 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfJericho View Post
There were actually ear and eye witnesses and a timeline of phonecalls and audio that corroborate his story but I wouldn't expect you to know that since you clearly haven't done much research on the case.
is this one of the witnesses you are referring to?

http://www.hlntv.com/article/2013/07...prised-verdict

or maybe this one?
http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimm...ry?id=19504826
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      07-19-2013, 11:05 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Mr Tonka View Post
We DO NOT have a right to do what ever we want to do. We don't have the right to punch someone because we're pissed that they are following us. We don't have the right to trespass. What kind of place would this be to live in if this were true?!?!

This kind of attitude is rampant throughout this country though.
so you know, firsthand, that GZ did not say anything to TM to start this?

don't tell me that would lead to assault which is illegal
speeding is illegal, but we all do it
fast is, if you piss off someone enough, things get physical
and when one is 17, and the other 29
I put more blame on the 29 year old, than the minor

fact is something bad happened because of the actions of one person
that would NOT have happened had he not taken that course or action
trayvon wasn't doing anything wrong
so why did he get killed?

I know you all believe in the legal system here
but when someone pulls the trigger, and kills someone
who wasn't doing anything wrong
and the killer gets away scot free, your "system" is messed up
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      07-19-2013, 11:12 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
is this one of the witnesses you are referring to?

http://www.hlntv.com/article/2013/07...prised-verdict

or maybe this one?
http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimm...ry?id=19504826
The second witness was a disaster and the first one is making an assumption. The only eyewitness to the beating clearly stated that GZ was on the bottom and TM was on top casting blows upon the person below him. One person was being beaten severely. Who they **THINK** was yelling for help is irrelevent since there was an eyewitness who saw the action taking place. There were witnesses both ways on the voice thing so that is pretty much inconclusive.
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      07-19-2013, 11:14 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
so you know, firsthand, that GZ did not say anything to TM to start this?

don't tell me that would lead to assault which is illegal
speeding is illegal, but we all do it
fast is, if you piss off someone enough, things get physical
and when one is 17, and the other 29
I put more blame on the 29 year old, than the minor

fact is something bad happened because of the actions of one person
that would NOT have happened had he not taken that course or action
trayvon wasn't doing anything wrong
so why did he get killed?

I know you all believe in the legal system here
but when someone pulls the trigger, and kills someone
who wasn't doing anything wrong
and the killer gets away scot free, your "system" is messed up
The first and only CRIME that was commited was commited by TM, whether you care to admit it or not. Paparazzi would be in a heck of a lot of trouble if anything you said above were true.

Let me spell this out clearly for you. TM was doing something wrong when he was severely beating GZ. That is assault. Following someone is NOT A CRIME and it IS criminal to beat someone who is following you, even if they are pissing you off. TM did something wrong, very wrong, and he did it to a person who happened to be armed and very much within their rights and within the bounds of the law to defend themselves with deadly force if they feel their life is in danger, which it certainly could have been.
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      07-19-2013, 11:22 AM   #55
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kmarei,

If GZ was black and TM was white, would your opinion be different.

If YES, then you are only instigating the racial problem that clearly still exists.

If NO, then you are contradicting all of your statements.

Rascism is promoted in two forms, the obvious one where there is hate and/or prejudice AND the often overlooked form of assuming that you are being racially profiled by others. Both are completely inexcusable in my opinion.

I hope that you take what I said and start to apply it so that you may analyze situations involving people of different colored skins from a neutral standpoint.
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      07-19-2013, 11:24 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
so you know, firsthand, that GZ did not say anything to TM to start this?

kmarei,

If GZ was black and TM was white, would your opinion be different?

If YES, then you are only instigating the racial problem that clearly still exists.

If NO, then you are contradicting all of your statements.

Rascism is promoted in two forms, the obvious one where there is hate and/or prejudice AND the often overlooked form of assuming that you are being racially profiled by others. Both are completely inexcusable in my opinion.

I hope that you take what I said and start to apply it so that you may analyze situations involving people of different colored skins from a neutral standpoint. This is because you are assuming there is racial profiling therefore making you part of the problem and not the solution.
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      07-19-2013, 12:17 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
so you know, firsthand, that GZ did not say anything to TM to start this?

don't tell me that would lead to assault which is illegal
speeding is illegal, but we all do it
fast is, if you piss off someone enough, things get physical
and when one is 17, and the other 29
I put more blame on the 29 year old, than the minor

fact is something bad happened because of the actions of one person
that would NOT have happened had he not taken that course or action
trayvon wasn't doing anything wrong
so why did he get killed?

I know you all believe in the legal system here
but when someone pulls the trigger, and kills someone
who wasn't doing anything wrong
and the killer gets away scot free, your "system" is messed up
Those indeed are not the facts. Fact is, I have been mighty pissed off in my time but have never gotten physical with someone for words they threw at me. Fact is, millions can say the same thing. Fact is, that's being responsible for our own actions.

For all the assumptions you make and all the for argument's sake statements, why not say, for argument's sake, that GZ was telling the truth? Why not make an assumption that TM did jump out from behind a bush and attack GZ?

Just because GZ is the only one living after the altercation doesn't automatically mean he's lying. If i killed someone who broke into my house and gave a statement saying that i told them to get out of my house i've called the cops. Then i said i've got a gun and will shoot you if you don't leave. They didn't leave so i shot him. Am i automatically lying about the incident because i'm the only one who can tell his side of the story?

The whole TM death is a tragedy, easily avoided if many small things would have happened. But they didn't and a someone's kid was killed. That doesn't mean it was malicious and it doesn't mean the person who survived is lying. Do you think for a second that GZ wouldn't do things differently if he could go back in time? Do you think that he's just living large now that he got away with murder? It's not like things just go back to normal for GZ and he's out looking for his next victim. His life is effectively ruined from this incident. Sure he's alive and breathing which is more than what TM has but other than that his life is no picnic. And don't assume that i feel any more sorry for GZ than i do for TM and his parents.

And don't play this 17 vs 29 shit. When we were 17 we were begging to be treated like adults and often thought we were acting like an adult by being a tough guy.
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      07-19-2013, 12:27 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Mr Tonka View Post
And don't play this 17 vs 29 shit. When we were 17 we were begging to be treated like adults and often thought we were acting like an adult by being a tough guy.
Would you feel the same way about 17 vs 29 if TM was a girl and GZ was having sex with her?
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      07-19-2013, 12:53 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfJericho View Post
Would you feel the same way about 17 vs 29 if TM was a girl and GZ was having sex with her?
I don't see the relevance...

It's illegal for a 29 year old to have sex with a 17 year old. (male or female)

It is not illegal for a 29 year old to use deadly force to defend their life if threatened by a 17 year old.

Would you feel different if GZ were a girl and TM was having sex with her?
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      07-19-2013, 01:09 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Tonka View Post
Those indeed are not the facts. Fact is, I have been mighty pissed off in my time but have never gotten physical with someone for words they threw at me. Fact is, millions can say the same thing. Fact is, that's being responsible for our own actions.

For all the assumptions you make and all the for argument's sake statements, why not say, for argument's sake, that GZ was telling the truth? Why not make an assumption that TM did jump out from behind a bush and attack GZ?

Just because GZ is the only one living after the altercation doesn't automatically mean he's lying. If i killed someone who broke into my house and gave a statement saying that i told them to get out of my house i've called the cops. Then i said i've got a gun and will shoot you if you don't leave. They didn't leave so i shot him. Am i automatically lying about the incident because i'm the only one who can tell his side of the story?

The whole TM death is a tragedy, easily avoided if many small things would have happened. But they didn't and a someone's kid was killed. That doesn't mean it was malicious and it doesn't mean the person who survived is lying. Do you think for a second that GZ wouldn't do things differently if he could go back in time? Do you think that he's just living large now that he got away with murder? It's not like things just go back to normal for GZ and he's out looking for his next victim. His life is effectively ruined from this incident. Sure he's alive and breathing which is more than what TM has but other than that his life is no picnic. And don't assume that i feel any more sorry for GZ than i do for TM and his parents.

And don't play this 17 vs 29 shit. When we were 17 we were begging to be treated like adults and often thought we were acting like an adult by being a tough guy.
What I've been saying the entire time.
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      07-19-2013, 01:21 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
2 things
Why did Zimmerman call 911 if was going to ignore their advice and take matters into his own hands?
I think he called 911 to get reinforcements from the police, not to get their advice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
And If you approach someone, how does that count as "stand your ground"?
Stand your ground means someone comes at you, and you decide you will not back down, and stand your ground. How can the initiator use the stand your ground?
Is "stand your ground" an attacking maneuver? Or a defensive one?
Stand your ground was not used by GZ in his defense.

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Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
And if Zimmerman had killed trayvon with a knife, instead of a gun, would be have still gotten the innocent ruling?
He was acquitted of the charged crime, not declared "innocent". He could still be found guilty of other crimes (if the state has sufficient evidence), and he could still be subject to civil damages.

While it's nice to speculate what happened, in the end, we're stuck with the evidence that we have, and the prosecutions burden of proof. If you (or the State) are going to accuse someone of a crime, you better have proof to back it up, and all you're offering is speculation.
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      07-19-2013, 01:40 PM   #62
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I don't see the relevance...

It's illegal for a 29 year old to have sex with a 17 year old. (male or female)

It is not illegal for a 29 year old to use deadly force to defend their life if threatened by a 17 year old.

Would you feel different if GZ were a girl and TM was having sex with her?
Oh I'm not even sure where I was going with that but I heard someone on the radio saying that it's a bit strange that people tried to say TM was a man but if they were fucking it would be illegal so he's not a man in the eyes of the law. Totally irrelevant thought and doesn't have anything to do with the discussion at hand.
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      07-19-2013, 01:44 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
so you know, firsthand, that GZ did not say anything to TM to start this?
No, but you don't know either. And since you're the accuser, you have the burden of proof.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
don't tell me that would lead to assault which is illegal
speeding is illegal, but we all do it
fast is, if you piss off someone enough, things get physical
and when one is 17, and the other 29
I put more blame on the 29 year old, than the minor
That would be setting terrible legal precedent. If you're saying that 17-year-olds would be justified in punching 29-year-olds if the latter pissed them off, that would be messed up. Minors may be tried differently, but what constitutes a crime does not (and should not) differentiate based on your age.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
fact is something bad happened because of the actions of one person
that would NOT have happened had he not taken that course or action
trayvon wasn't doing anything wrong
so why did he get killed?
And based on the evidence presented, GZ didn't do anything wrong (as per the crime he was charged). Yes, it is unfortunate that we don't have TM's testimony, but it is a greater wrong to punish the innocent. Hence, again, the prosecution/accuser has the burden of proof.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kmarei View Post
I know you all believe in the legal system here
but when someone pulls the trigger, and kills someone
who wasn't doing anything wrong
and the killer gets away scot free, your "system" is messed up
You're assuming that TM didn't do anything wrong. There was an altercation, and it's not clear who "started" it. Again, it's the prosecution's burden of proof. The "system" didn't mess up here. You can blame the prosecution and you can blame the State for screwing up, but in the end you have to PROVE what you accuse. And I think you're being unjustly presumptuous to accuse GZ without proof, other than speculation. Our "system" does not put people in jail based on speculation.
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      07-19-2013, 01:47 PM   #64
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Obama out there, showing how much of a true leader he isn't, nurturing the racial divide with his comments on the matter. How can anyone still believe that he is a good leader and president?

He may be voicing exactly how he feels, but a leader that is supposed to represent EVERYONE and work for the people does not make these comments publicly for the entire world to consume.
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      07-19-2013, 01:57 PM   #65
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Obama out there, showing how much of a true leader he isn't, nurturing the racial divide with his comments on the matter. How can anyone still believe that he is a good leader and president?

He may be voicing exactly how he feels, but a leader that is supposed to represent EVERYONE and work for the people does not make these comments publicly for the entire world to consume.
This country is being lead from the bottom, up. Not the other way around.
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      07-19-2013, 02:04 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by bolinp78 View Post
Obama out there, showing how much of a true leader he isn't, nurturing the racial divide with his comments on the matter. How can anyone still believe that he is a good leader and president?

He may be voicing exactly how he feels, but a leader that is supposed to represent EVERYONE and work for the people does not make these comments publicly for the entire world to consume.
Yeah I also find his comments shocking, especially since he was the head of the Harvard Law Review.
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KingOfJericho is offline   United_States
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