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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N57 / M57 Turbo Diesel Discussions - 335d > 335d PCV Catch Can Question



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      07-23-2013, 02:32 PM   #45
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One of the common mods done with big diesel pulling trucks (same fundamental inline 6 engine concept) to support running 50, 60 or more lbs boost is simply adding additional vents to the atmosphere - no vacuum involved whatsoever. I don't know all the 335D specs yet, but I again will WAG boost levels at less than half those numbers at max. So as long as the vent has sufficient volume capacity (BIG enough), that's really all there should be to it, AFAIK. Which isn't very far. Yet.
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      07-23-2013, 02:46 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acewiza View Post
One of the common mods done by big diesel pulling trucks (same fundamental inline 6 engine concept) to support running 50, 60 or more lbs boost is simply adding additional vents to the atmosphere - no vacuum involved whatsoever. I don't know all the 335D specs yet, but I again will WAG boost levels at less than half those numbers at max. So as long as the vent has sufficient volume capacity (BIG enough), that's really all there is to it.
26 PSI is the stock boost #, with some tunes going to around 30, possibly more in the Eurozone where they have more support

suggesting the M57 is the same as any other diesel is questionable. Depends on which one I guess but just like you wouldnt say that the N54 is the same as any ole Audi 3.0, the M57 isnt the same as just any Cummins common rail 5.9. The vent to atmosphere may well be a perfectly fine solution, but you are kind of assuming a lot by being so adamant about it when you dont know specifically about the ECU programming.
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      07-23-2013, 02:55 PM   #47
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suggesting the M57 is the same as any other diesel is questionable.
Your words, not mine. You might want to re-read that post. Sounds like that boost WAG was pretty damn close.

I will be the first one to admit what I don't know. You question all you like. This issue is one of the things I enjoy sorting out with a new web forum I just joined - you know, separating the poseurs from the real players, so to speak.
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      07-23-2013, 03:12 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acewiza View Post
Your words, not mine. You might want to re-read that post.
you roughly estimated the boost and that makes it the same as all others?

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This issue is one of the things I enjoy sorting out with a new web forum I just joined - you know, separating the poseurs from the real players, so to speak.
I just hope you settle in quick, cause you likely arent in for a long ride otherwise. I like seeing useful information posted to forums regardless of who/how its posted, so I am looking forward to you maybe sharing some at some point
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      07-23-2013, 04:14 PM   #49
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I will post pictures when I install the kit. It has just been shipped to me today from North Carolina, and the one fitting shown in the picture on the upper left side was the most expensive piece to have CNC'd over $500. The kit will be as sweet as a new born baby once installed.
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      07-23-2013, 04:18 PM   #50
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As the OP of the thread ... I'd like to keep this focused on civil and helpful discussions related specifically to the topic. If you're interested in "separating the poseurs from the real players", or a pissing match of some kind, please start your own thread. Thank you.
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      07-23-2013, 04:19 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by 335dwagon View Post
I will post pictures when I install the kit. It has just been shipped to me today from North Carolina, and the one fitting shown in the picture on the upper left side was the most expensive piece to have CNC'd over $500. The kit will be as sweet as a new born baby once installed.
Looking forward to your report. Thanks.
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      07-23-2013, 05:07 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoooper View Post
sort of, its more of an air/oil separator than a filter but performs the same task yes, there is not significant vacuum on it, more Bernoulli's principle pulling air out of the crankcase
Whoa, Bernoulli's principle?! I'm in the wrong thread. Too much for me.
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      07-24-2013, 06:55 AM   #53
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Gracias TDi this forums is to learn from SOMETHING most of us have no cater in our lifetimes, PLEASE refrain from bashing otherwise the MODERATOS will abn anyone. Still no word from Turbo eddie I will call him today and keepveryone posted
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      07-24-2013, 08:07 AM   #54
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Ok amigos spoke to Turbo eddie and he will join this forum and blog and give his insight, dont be a bunch of wads and try to break him down, this guy as i beleive is the FIRST guy to succesfully adapt a Cx Racing 335i IC to his 335d car here in the states and additionally add meth to his car, he is getting anywhere from 40 t0 45 mpg hwy at 75mph. He has other project done for some known people and so , he' no slouch and loves his DIESEL and is willing to come up something with the catch can if meritable. we spoke for 30 minutes and he's all for it if a group buy is ensued , but first he will do runs on this car before selling the product and of course I will be a guinea pig for him also he needs me!! So wait and see
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      07-24-2013, 09:28 AM   #55
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wow is he running an MPG meth system like the MPG max from devilsown, or is that mileage coming from the piggyback he was building? Last I saw he had some updates on that piggyback and then ______________________ nothing. Maybe he is keeping the rest of that quiet to release an actual product.
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      07-25-2013, 07:21 AM   #56
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This has some very useful info in it.

http://www.shophemi.com/images/media..._ccv_bible.pdf

Due to diesel's having more blowby than gas engines (higher compression ratio's, higher boost, etc.) I'm a little concerned that a system that works on a 335i may not be adequate for the 335d. Especially if it's modified for more power...

The Provent 200 is rated for high power diesel applications and is OEM on many commercial applications. Also used by many other diesel truck and TDI guys. Mine should be showing up today.

Unfortunately I'm leaving for a week of vacation soon and won't get a chance to play with it for awhile. Hopefully you guys will have the connections to the PCV system figured out by then :-)
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      07-25-2013, 08:07 AM   #57
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Ok amigos read the PDf and wrote to this guys the following:

One of our forums members put your PDF of your CCV Bible to read and man did it open my eyes. We would like to know if u can make a design ofr our BMW 335 I6 DIESELS, in my case my car has a flash performed by RENNtech and has a larger IC by WAGNER, Im pumping 312 whp and i guess around 450 lbs tq on the wheels. Im pretty sure a member on the board lives near your site and would be willing to be a GUINEA Pig to assist you in developing something for us. I will post this email in the website www.e90post.com in the DIESEL section. Thanks
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      07-25-2013, 10:28 AM   #58
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You guys are confusing the term PCV, and in the process cobbing redundant and/or useless parts on to your engine. The "P" in PCV is (P)ositive (crankcase ventilation), as it refers to a spark ignition engine's ventilation induced by positive vacuum, pulled through a relatively small tube.

The catch can is a passive device in itself, and an unnecessary bit of bling on any healthy, normally running gasser. The vent pipe and any associated hardware on a diesel is also a passive device, collecting or passing minimal residue from a healthy engine. If you are going to call it a PCV at least define your term as (P)assive (crankcase ventilation). If you are seeing alot of oil condensation from either a catch can or a vent tube you have much bigger issues to worry about than simply collecting it.

$500 CNC piece? Wow.
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      07-25-2013, 10:54 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acewiza View Post
You guys are confusing the term PCV, and in the process cobbing redundant and/or useless parts on to your engine. The "P" in PCV is (P)ositive (crankcase ventilation), as it refers to a spark ignition engine's ventilation induced by positive vacuum, pulled through a relatively small tube.
confusing and using interchangeably (even though they arent the same) are two different things. We all know its CCV even if someone says PCV.

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Originally Posted by acewiza View Post
The catch can is a passive device in itself, and an unnecessary bit of bling on any healthy, normally running gasser. The vent pipe and any associated hardware on a diesel is also a passive device, collecting or passing minimal residue from a healthy engine. If you are going to call it a PCV at least define your term as (P)assive (crankcase ventilation). If you are seeing alot of oil condensation from either a catch can or a vent tube you have much bigger issues to worry about than simply collecting it.
are you serious? Tell that to the owner of ANY new car who bothers to look into it. Oil from the CCV is known to be a contributing factor to carbon buildup on direct injection engines and only ISNT a problem on others because of fuel detergents. Better yet tell it to BMW, they seemed to think that there was going to be "oil mist" in the CCV air or they wouldnt have designed the CCV to have oil separating features. Possibly that article from Arrington performance should have stated that they build a bunch of race engines that run like crap so that they need catch cans
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      07-25-2013, 11:41 AM   #60
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Seriously, "redundant" and/or "useless" depending on your application and engine's state of health.
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Better yet tell it to BMW, they seemed to think that there was going to be "oil mist" in the CCV air or they wouldnt have designed the CCV to have oil separating features.
That woudl be the redundant part.
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Possibly that article from Arrington performance should have stated that they build a bunch of race engines that run like crap so that they need catch cans.
That would be the useless part, unless you are tracking the car, which >99% of owners are not.
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      07-25-2013, 11:58 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acewiza View Post
That woudl be the redundant part.
redundant maybe in the sense that a 1 micron filter is redundant if you already have a 10 micron filter, but not redundant if you need to filter out those 5 micron particles

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Originally Posted by acewiza View Post
That would be the useless part, unless you are tracking the car, which >99% of owners are not.
yeah, dont bother addressing the fact that its a common issue on everything from Camrys to RS4s and everything in between including but not limited to the 335D. Maybe you ought to go check your engine and see if youve got any oily slime in the manifold. I bet your engine, in your opinion according to this thread, has "much bigger issues to worry about than simply collecting (oil)"
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      07-25-2013, 01:27 PM   #62
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Well, BMW calls it a "crankcase breather". And the connection to the intake is called the "blow by pipe". Either way it's routing the positive pressurized crankcase fumes back into the intake. See page 24 for some details.

http://prodcds.bmwuniversity.com/lib...erformance.pdf

If you think its redundant and not needed then you are welcome to not participate in the thread.
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      07-25-2013, 02:09 PM   #63
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Characterizing the crankcase fumes as "pressurized" would be a real stretch, even from a badly worn engine. Just how many psi you think you're makin' there, bud? ...again, depending on the engine's state of health? What, .01 to 1psi? Somewhere around there maybe? That factor is by definition, a good measure of diesel health. All engines have a little blowby - no biggie.

If plumbing a catch can into it suits your fancy, by all means, go for it! If it's a particularly expensive catch can, then all the better for your BMW experience, right?

As I said earlier, venting it to the atmosphere is your best bet if you really feel compelled to do something with it. Now, I certainly will take your advice regarding this thread.

Bye!
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      07-25-2013, 02:37 PM   #64
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page 24 gives an indication why venting to atmosphere would be an issue, and many many people here with carbon issues give you an indication why you would want to, but surely the real issue is that BMW got a bad batch of M57N2's with production dates ranging from 2008 to 2011 that have bad rings and excessive blow by

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      07-25-2013, 02:45 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acewiza View Post
Characterizing the crankcase fumes as "pressurized" would be a real stretch, even from a badly worn engine. Just how many psi you think you're makin' there, bud?
I know exactly how much boost the car is making. Bud.

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...5&postcount=56

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Originally Posted by acewiza View Post
...again, depending on the engine's state of health? What, .01 to 1psi? Somewhere around there maybe? That factor is by definition, a good measure of diesel health. All engines have a little blowby - no biggie.
Considering the car's lifetime hand calculated mpg is 37.8 mpg, I get in the lower 40's for 70-75 mph interstate drives, and can do 12.6's in the 1/4 mile (http://www.dragtimes.com/BMW--335d-Drag-Racing.html), I think quantitatively the engine is in good health. And it is pushing oil out the crancase breather and blow by tubing as demonstrated at the start of the thread. And this is a common issue with many, many posts about oil in the intercooler and charge pipes.

There's direct measured data out there for various engine configurations. The amount of pressure will depend on lots of things, not just the amount of blow by. But in general for a 3 liter diesel running 3068 mbar absolute (subtract 1bar for normal atmospheric pressure -> 30 psi) the engine will likely be moving ~3-5 cubic feet per minute through that blow by pipe. When not into the boost the volume will be much smaller.

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If plumbing a catch can into it suits your fancy, by all means, go for it! If it's a particularly expensive catch can, then all the better for your BMW experience, right?
$118 for the Porvent 200 is not what I'd consider expensive.

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As I said earlier, venting it to the atmosphere is your best bet if you really feel compelled to do something with it. Now, I certainly will take your advice regarding this thread.

Bye!
If you had bothered to read the technical presentation from BMW on the crankcase breather you would have noticed that on the US model it is monitored. Disconnecting it will throw a code, which likely means the DDE will limit your overall output power because the emission system isn't working correctly. But if you have hard data showing before and after impacts of doing this that demonstrate a benefit, please share them.
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      07-25-2013, 02:51 PM   #66
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If you can't figure out how to work around an emissions mil on the crankacse breather without assuming your snarky little "know-it-all" attitudes, I'm not gonna help you.
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Personally, and its mostly just speculation, I think the only way to really alleviate the problem is to block the EGR and vent the PCV to atmosphere...
So did you recently change your mind, or just assuming the role of TDIwyse' sycophant now?

Enjoy yourselves!
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