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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Technical Forums > Suspension | Brakes | Chassis > Fixing Slop-Ass, What all bushings need upgrading?



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      08-04-2013, 01:34 PM   #1
deathbunny
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Fixing Slop-Ass, What all bushings need upgrading?

I am trying to stop the rear-end from sliding around on itself. I know the subframe bushings need upgraded to M3 ones? Any other bushings that need to get upgraded to make it feel like a normal car again

I was going to hold off on the diff bushings until I can get an LSD dropped in. I found the diff lockdown kit. Is that more for wheel hop only or will it also help make the rear solid side to side?

What bushings are at most fault for the slop-ass feeling and is there anything other than bushings that need upgraded?

Thanks!
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      08-04-2013, 03:06 PM   #2
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If you find a definitive answer, I love to hear it as well. Some swear by the LSD and subframe bushings, some people find that didn't fix it. Some say toe-arms, and the solid diff bushings are the latest that people who have all of the above claim fixes the problem.

I've done the powerflex bushings, toe-arms and have koni/swift suspension setup and the rear squirm is the worst aspect of the car by far (especially when you're tuned).

Obviously there most be some distortion or deflection causing an alignment geometry change profound enough to steer the car off course. If I point the wheel straight and hammer it, I will be partially in the next lane within a couple seconds. Counter steer to correct while you still apply power and the car becomes very unsettled.
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      08-04-2013, 03:09 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chumley View Post
If you find a definitive answer, I love to hear it as well. Some swear by the LSD and subframe bushings, some people find that didn't fix it. Some say toe-arms, and the solid diff bushings are the latest that people who have all of the above claim fixes the problem.

I've done the powerflex bushings, toe-arms and have koni/swift suspension setup and the rear squirm is the worst aspect of the car by far (especially when you're tuned).

Obviously there most be some distortion or deflection causing an alignment geometry change profound enough to steer the car off course. If I point the wheel straight and hammer it, I will be partially in the next lane within a couple seconds. Counter steer to correct while you still apply power and the car becomes very unsettled.
Powerflex bushings on your subframe?
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      08-04-2013, 06:56 PM   #4
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Subframe bushings, differential bushings and toe arms.
Depending on what you can live with, subframe bushings firmer than M3; they still allow for subframe movement.
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      08-05-2013, 12:49 AM   #5
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Thanks.

What are the downsides to going with firmer bushings than the m3, additional noise and vibration i assume? any idea how bad?

Also anyone have a rough idea what this job usually costs?
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      08-05-2013, 01:43 AM   #6
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Increased NVH. Read this forum and M3 forum; it's all subjective but some M3 owners report very minimal increased NVH going to solid subframe mounts. Don't know that I'd want solid subframe mounts and that solid differential lockdown kit. For toe arms look at Megan Racing; don't get toe arms with spherical bearings; I made that mistake. Another part that should reduce rear end squirm under hard accel is a larger rear roll bar but then you're reducing rear grip.
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      08-09-2013, 04:04 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deathbunny View Post
Powerflex bushings on your subframe?
Yep, full replacements and love them!
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      08-09-2013, 04:32 AM   #8
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Any idea rough labor hours for:

Subframe bushing install
Diff bushing install

Thanks
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      08-09-2013, 07:26 AM   #9
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Good race shops will charge 5 hours and 2 hours for those jobs, respectively. Give or take.

Regular repair shops will most likely gouge you out of fear since they usually have no idea what they are doing.
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      08-09-2013, 01:27 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deathbunny View Post
Any idea rough labor hours for:

Subframe bushing install
Diff bushing install

Thanks
His about DIY? I wrote these a while back:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=802073

This is the lockdown kit DIY, but I replaced differential bushings also.

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=806041
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      08-09-2013, 04:59 PM   #11
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I dont really have the tools / setup needed to do much DIY. I do have a great bmw only indy shop I trust that charges actual time spent working on the car instead of some crazy over inflated book time so I have no problems paying to get stuff put on.

How much of a difference did the lockdown kit make?

Thanks for the info guys!
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      08-09-2013, 06:40 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deathbunny View Post
I dont really have the tools / setup needed to do much DIY. I do have a great bmw only indy shop I trust that charges actual time spent working on the car instead of some crazy over inflated book time so I have no problems paying to get stuff put on.

How much of a difference did the lockdown kit make?

Thanks for the info guys!
Huge difference for me, launches great and my wheel hop was eliminated.
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      08-09-2013, 07:34 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robc1976 View Post
Huge difference for me, launches great and my wheel hop was eliminated.
Does it help with the side to side slop? I don't launch my car often enough to worry about that I just don't want it wiggling all over every time I get on it.
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      08-09-2013, 08:43 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deathbunny View Post
Does it help with the side to side slop? I don't launch my car often enough to worry about that I just don't want it wiggling all over every time I get on it.
Helped a lot...I was referring launching from a 40 roll.
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      08-09-2013, 10:24 PM   #15
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Cool thanks!

So let me try and sum this up.

I will need:
Diff lock kit
Diff bushings
Subframe bushings
Toe arms, what do these do?

Is there anything else that would make sense to upgrade at the same time from a labor point of view. Also I was considering just doing an m3 rear swap to get the diff. Would this make more sense to do then to upgrade these other things on there own or would they not be part of the swap and need to be done anyway?
Thanks
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      08-10-2013, 12:54 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deathbunny View Post
Cool thanks!

So let me try and sum this up.

I will need:
Diff lock kit
Diff bushings
Subframe bushings
Toe arms, what do these do?

Is there anything else that would make sense to upgrade at the same time from a labor point of view. Also I was considering just doing an m3 rear swap to get the diff. Would this make more sense to do then to upgrade these other things on there own or would they not be part of the swap and need to be done anyway?
Thanks
You have to have a LSD, that ties everything together. Toe arms allow you to adjust toe beyond what a stock arm can do.
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      08-10-2013, 04:18 AM   #17
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That, and not flexing under power the way the stock stamped steel ones do...
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      08-10-2013, 05:18 AM   #18
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Quote:
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That, and not flexing under power the way the stock stamped steel ones do...
Very true actually.
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      08-10-2013, 08:23 AM   #19
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I'm getting ready to get all my suspenders installed next week, including all three sets of hardrace upper arms (camber, trailing, and toe) rather than going with the M3 upper arms. It's gonna be intense, methinks.
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      08-10-2013, 11:07 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cvc 22349a View Post
Subframe bushings, differential bushings and toe arms.
Depending on what you can live with, subframe bushings firmer than M3; they still allow for subframe movement.
Nailed it ...

And if you want to reduce the squat under acceleration, upgrade dampers/springs to something more powerful.
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      08-31-2016, 10:20 PM   #21
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Resurrecting this thread.

I have a Quaife with Turner Delrin/Aluminum subframe bushings. I also did a rear end refresh kit from ECS ("stage 1") while I had it all apart.

Under controlled load and throttle angles (constant or controlled radius) corners it is an absolute joy, but for situations such as power on on even slightly uneven pavement it wants to push the rear end around in completely unpredictable ways (stock power, not even a tune). It feels as if the diff is limiting slip as designed but then it seems to spear off if there's a slight steering angle (think what the car feels like with an open diff and aged, stock subframe bushings). The car is such a joy and controllable when pushed, it's the light throttle to no throttle with mild steering lane changes or regular driving items that when throttle is applied that's disconcerting. As was stated before, feels like toe is out and forcing car around but it very recently had an alignment and when the car is under controlled load in corners it's perfect. I'm guessing this is best rectified with the upgraded toe arms and other rear arms to better maintain geometry under changing loads, as well as secondly dialing in the damping far better than the under damped Sachs stock units, but wanted a second opinion. My planned next mods since it's a road car first but one I plan to take to the track is to start with Koni Yellow's, BMW PS springs, M3 front and rear control arms, and a toe Rod upgrade.

Any feedback is appreciated.
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      08-31-2016, 10:33 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nanceman View Post
Resurrecting this thread.

I have a Quaife with Turner Delrin/Aluminum subframe bushings. I also did a rear end refresh kit from ECS ("stage 1") while I had it all apart.

Under controlled load and throttle angles (constant or controlled radius) corners it is an absolute joy, but for situations such as power on on even slightly uneven pavement it wants to push the rear end around in completely unpredictable ways (stock power, not even a tune). It feels as if the diff is limiting slip as designed but then it seems to spear off if there's a slight steering angle (think what the car feels like with an open diff and aged, stock subframe bushings). The car is such a joy and controllable when pushed, it's the light throttle to no throttle with mild steering lane changes or regular driving items that when throttle is applied that's disconcerting. As was stated before, feels like toe is out and forcing car around but it very recently had an alignment and when the car is under controlled load in corners it's perfect. I'm guessing this is best rectified with the upgraded toe arms and other rear arms to better maintain geometry under changing loads, as well as secondly dialing in the damping far better than the under damped Sachs stock units, but wanted a second opinion. My planned next mods since it's a road car first but one I plan to take to the track is to start with Koni Yellow's, BMW PS springs, M3 front and rear control arms, and a toe Rod upgrade.

Any feedback is appreciated.
Rear upper M3 links are not going to help, save your money. Same spherical bearing and rubber bushing as stock, just a different overload response.

I'd recommend BimmerWorld spherical bearings for the trailing links as well as their toe arms that also use Aurora Performance Race ballends. Use Seals-It seals on them and they'll last a very long time.

You could also replace the rear upper links with the same type of link as the toe arm, BimmerWorld has them as well. Allows for adjusting rear caster, if necessary.

And replacing the bushing in the front upper control arm with a sealed spherical bearing will tighten up the steering but is kinda pointless without camber plates.
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