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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N55 Turbo Engine Tuning and Exhaust Modifications - 335i Tuning > VTT vs RB N55 Turbo Upgrade



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      08-12-2013, 12:59 AM   #1
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VTT vs RB N55 Turbo Upgrade

Could not post a reply on the comparison thread. However I wanted to speak my mind regarding this issue.

Results speaks louder than statements.

They provide justification and validity to a claim... Competition inspires innovation and engineering. Both Vargas and RB have taken on a difficult challenge... The best of fortunes to both, till then lets focus on getting metrics on these new turbo upgrades... And let your proven solution speak for itself... Only then can an end state comparison be made.

Any thoughts on this?
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      08-12-2013, 02:17 AM   #2
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Agree :-)
For me the vargas solution would be sufficient since it keeps most stock stuff and 500 is more than enough whp. And price is better too.

BUT we have been reading up so long, now its time for results and let the results speak for themselves.
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      08-12-2013, 08:13 AM   #3
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I think maybe you guys missed the opening paragraph of the post, where among other things this was said

"I decided to take a look at both upgrades and compare them from as factual a stand point as possible before either of them are officially released or running on a vehicle."

All it was, was a comparison of how both upgrades are being approached, designed, how they will fit, how much hp they will support, etc. This is a very valid comparison. The only thing you cannot compare until they are running on a vehicle is actual performance.
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      08-12-2013, 09:05 AM   #4
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I am good with 500 WHP and is more than I need. But its wait and see game now, lets see some real numbers and stories and we can make a better decision then.
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      08-12-2013, 10:41 AM   #5
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Hey guys.

I've read much of the comparison and can't say that it is too far off base. There are a couple things that I'd like to clarify and really perhaps they are only difference of opinion. Ultimately we will have to see in time.

1) The OEM N55 Turbo being a "piece of junk"- This has been taken slightly out of context. In native form, we really do not believe it is a piece of junk. Actually it is a very nice unit for what it was designed to do (ie. provide ample airflow to make a very efficient 300rwhp)
2) Horsepower cap of the N55 Hybrid- we believe the HP cap of the hybrid is going to be quite a bit over estimated. We believe rather than the proclaimed 500-550rwhp, will be more like 425-475rwhp regardless of the centersection or wheels chosen due to a very undersized turbine housing.
3) Fitment- The oem unit will always fit nicer and have better packaging. This is a great thing about hybrids and obviously we support that very much so. However, we plan on using a modular design (which we are custom machining several components for) that will make the design quite frankly pretty breathtaking. More to come on this in our updates.
4) OEM styling and warranty- This is a no brainer. If you do not have good relations with your local BMW dealership and have concern about a voided warranty due to modifications and also about your under hood looking non stock- then go with the hybrid.
5) Availability- probably on point there. It will take a bit to get our setup done. All pends on what you want. We hope to have pics of the manifold soon and when you see it I am pretty sure you will be able to see where we are going with this (and will likely wish to hold out for the finished product). However once the prototype is done, and proven (as we will not sell to anyone until it is proven), it will not take very long to get into production.
6) Actuator function- both setups will use vacuum wastegate actuation and thus both will work in harmony with the DME.
7) Spool- We would agree that the hybrid will spool faster as it has a very small turbine housing (that will also significantly limit power and also significantly reduce octane thresholds); but we do believe that the new hi-tech EFR with twin scroll and the .92ar turbine housing, short runner modular exhaust manifold, will be no slouch. It is my belief that the spool will be full boost in the higher 3k rpm range.
8) Price- probably on point. But the hybrid requires a core charge of $1500 (whereas ours will not), so if you wish to keep the OEM turbo for reversability sake... the hybrid solution costs $5,500 (which puts them in the same ballpark). When you start comparing bang for the buck, you'll see quickly that there is no comparison.

At the end of the day we are not touting our upgrade to be anything but what it is. There are numerous ways to skin a cat, if you want a hybrid that has never been tested and is being advertised to make 500-550rwhp that is great. Perhaps you can ask for a $$ back guarantee if it only makes 450rwhp though.

Take care,
Rob

Last edited by Rob@RBTurbo; 08-12-2013 at 10:51 AM.
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      08-12-2013, 11:16 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob@RBTurbo View Post
Hey guys.

I've read much of the comparison and can't say that it is too far off base. There are a couple things that I'd like to clarify and really perhaps they are only difference of opinion. Ultimately we will have to see in time.

1) The OEM N55 Turbo being a "piece of junk"- This has been taken slightly out of context. In native form, we really do not believe it is a piece of junk. Actually it is a very nice unit for what it was designed to do (ie. provide ample airflow to make a very efficient 300rwhp)
2) Horsepower cap of the N55 Hybrid- we believe the HP cap of the hybrid is going to be quite a bit over estimated. We believe rather than the proclaimed 500-550rwhp, will be more like 425-475rwhp regardless of the centersection or wheels chosen due to a very undersized turbine housing.
3) Fitment- The oem unit will always fit nicer and have better packaging. This is a great thing about hybrids and obviously we support that very much so. However, we plan on using a modular design (which we are custom machining several components for) that will make the design quite frankly pretty breathtaking. More to come on this in our updates.
4) OEM styling and warranty- This is a no brainer. If you do not have good relations with your local BMW dealership and have concern about a voided warranty due to modifications and also about your under hood looking non stock- then go with the hybrid.
5) Availability- probably on point there. It will take a bit to get our setup done. All pends on what you want. We hope to have pics of the manifold soon and when you see it I am pretty sure you will be able to see where we are going with this (and will likely wish to hold out for the finished product). However once the prototype is done, and proven (as we will not sell to anyone until it is proven), it will not take very long to get into production.
6) Actuator function- both setups will use vacuum wastegate actuation and thus both will work in harmony with the DME.
7) Spool- We would agree that the hybrid will spool faster as it has a very small turbine housing (that will also significantly limit power and also significantly reduce octane thresholds); but we do believe that the new hi-tech EFR with twin scroll and the .92ar turbine housing, short runner modular exhaust manifold, will be no slouch. It is my belief that the spool will be full boost in the higher 3k rpm range.
8) Price- probably on point. But the hybrid requires a core charge of $1500 (whereas ours will not), so if you wish to keep the OEM turbo for reversability sake... the hybrid solution costs $5,500 (which puts them in the same ballpark)

At the end of the day we are not touting our upgrade to be anything but what it is. There are numerous ways to skin a cat, if you want a hybrid that has never been tested and is being advertised to make 500-550rwhp that is great. Perhaps you can ask for a $$ back guarantee if it only makes 450rwhp though.

Take care,
Rob
Thanks for the post Rob. Well written and to the point.

Couple things I would like to add.

I stand corrected on the Vacuum actuators. I think its smart you converted it over.

As far as the stock housing, the same could be said for the N54, those housings were designed to make a very efficient 300 HP. But with some basic hybrid technology we have seen them make well over 500 WHP with the right mods. Bottom line we feel the housing on the N55 can support 500+ WHP, but as with the N54 that will be approaching its limits. This number is more then enough power for 90% of the people out there, and keeps their warranty intact.

As far as the EFR, full boost by 3000 RPM flys in the face of all independent testing done on the turbos. Just do a google search of EFR Dyno sheets and you can get all the info you need on multiple platforms including I6 motors like the 2JZ etc. For your smallest option which will be maxed out at 500 WHP as it supports 560 BHP you should see full boost around 3500 or so. This is not me just saying this. There are lot of people running these turbos, the article I provided shows how the EFR's are spooling. Its no where near 3000 RPM

Its going to come down to preference, I equate it to the N54 stock frames vs single or stage 3. If you want big power you have to get away from stock frames, if you want a car that make very good power and is still very fast most people choose stock frame hybrids.
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      08-12-2013, 12:05 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vargasturbotech View Post
As far as the stock housing, the same could be said for the N54, those housings were designed to make a very efficient 300 HP. But with some basic hybrid technology we have seen them make well over 500 WHP with the right mods.
I agree that the N54 housings have good things going for them. Something that I think you are missing out though is that each turbo makes about 30-50rwhp gain by going hybrid, and since there are 2 of them it means you could see 60-100rwhp. To the contrary with the N55, there is only a single turbo to modify and I think the turbine side is pretty closed to peaked in native form. Id be suprised to see a 50rwhp gain with it as a limitation, which would put you in the 450rwhp range max. If this could be done for $2500 or less, then it would be a good upgrade. This is why we jumped away from the Hybrid solution as we felt if a customer is spending north of $3.5k for a single hybrid only to make another 30-50rwhp max it would not be worth it. Time will tell, but I think your guestimate of 500-550rwhp is very much over estimated. If you disagree, then offer a money back guarantee if it is not as promised.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vargasturbotech View Post
As far as the EFR, full boost by 3000 RPM flys in the face of all independent testing done on the turbos. Just do a google search of EFR Dyno sheets and you can get all the info you need on multiple platforms including I6 motors like the 2JZ etc. For your smallest option which will be maxed out at 500 WHP as it supports 560 BHP you should see full boost around 3500 or so. This is not me just saying this. There are lot of people running these turbos, the article I provided shows how the EFR's are spooling. Its no where near 3000 RPM
I said by high 3k RPMs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vargasturbotech View Post
Its going to come down to preference, I equate it to the N54 stock frames vs single or stage 3. If you want big power you have to get away from stock frames, if you want a car that make very good power and is still very fast most people choose stock frame hybrids.
Agree, but still think your 500-550rwhp gains are very optimistic and not inline with reality.

Of course this is all just my opinion, and we can agree to disagree and let time sort out the reality of it all- I am ok with that.

Rob
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      08-12-2013, 12:09 PM   #8
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I stand corrected you did say high 3K range. Looks like until we both get one on a car its all guess work, as far as spool and HP. But tuning, fuel, and supporting mods will tell a big story for the hybrid. If someone thinks they can buy an upgraded turbo, slap it on and make 500 WHP they need to know that is not the case, same as it isn't the case with the N54, there are a lot of mods that have to be done to get it there.

One last thing as far as core charge. I have not had one person opt to keep their core on the N54's or N55. So adding in $1500 to our cost really isn't fair. The Upgrade is $3999
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      08-12-2013, 12:15 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vargasturbotech View Post
I stand corrected you did say high 3K range. Looks like until we both get one on a car its all guess work, as far as spool and HP. But tuning, fuel, and supporting mods will tell a big story for the hybrid. If someone thinks they can buy an upgraded turbo, slap it on and make 500 WHP they need to know that is not the case, same as it isn't the case with the N54, there are a lot of mods that have to be done to get it there.
Yes, other supporting mods will be necessary for either situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vargasturbotech View Post
One last thing as far as core charge. I have not had one person opt to keep their core on the N54's or N55. So adding in $1500 to our cost really isn't fair. The Upgrade is $3999
The reason no one has selected to keep the core as the core charge is $1500. Who would keep a turbo when they could get a $1500 refund? At that point, yes, send the core back as that is a lot of $$$ to recover! But for those who would like to keep their turbo, for any reason, they will have to pay the core charge and eat the cost. The fact remains that we will not have a core charge and thus will not incur a $1500 expense. It is certainly fair to say the core charge is a tangible argument when it comes to pricing as it sits today. Hell, as an RB N55 guy, you could sell their unit to someone using your program for a $1500 refund if they wish!

Rob
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      08-12-2013, 12:52 PM   #10
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I wish there were five more vendors making turbos for this platform. If there were 10 more vendors, then the profit margins would be tiny and we would have options for any horsepower. Competition is such a great thing.
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      08-12-2013, 01:06 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob@RBTurbo View Post
Yes, other supporting mods will be necessary for either situation.



The reason no one has selected to keep the core as the core charge is $1500. Who would keep a turbo when they could get a $1500 refund? At that point, yes, send the core back as that is a lot of $$$ to recover! But for those who would like to keep their turbo, for any reason, they will have to pay the core charge and eat the cost. The fact remains that we will not have a core charge and thus will not incur a $1500 expense. It is certainly fair to say the core charge is a tangible argument when it comes to pricing as it sits today. Hell, as an RB N55 guy, you could sell their unit to someone using your program for a $1500 refund if they wish!

Rob
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      08-12-2013, 01:33 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turugara View Post
I wish there were five more vendors making turbos for this platform. If there were 10 more vendors, then the profit margins would be tiny and we would have options for any horsepower. Competition is such a great thing.
I think you may overestimate what the profit margins are on some products. The key is identifying correctly which products those are...

Rob
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      08-12-2013, 01:35 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob@RBTurbo View Post
I think you may overestimate what the profit margins are on some products. The key is identifying correctly which products those are...

Rob
This is very possible. I know this is a difficult business but I didn't realize just how difficult until I found out about some of the numbers.

Which is why we should be giving as much support as we can to those who are trying to innovate in this space!
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      08-12-2013, 01:41 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turugara View Post
This is very possible. I know this is a difficult business but I didn't realize just how difficult until I found out about some of the numbers.

Which is why we should be giving as much support as we can to those who are trying to innovate in this space!
The thing is we have to do everything the hard and intricate way. If a company with a lot of backing felt that the demand and return on investment was there, they could surely build a setup for a sweeter production cost. Problem is it would cost them hundreds of thousands of dollars to do it efficiently with up front tooling, and thus they would charge high prices to get the return on investment until they have and then the price may drop. But until then you are left with small business doing what they can in the most intricate of fashions (in a niche form) to bring enthusiasts products that they believe are what they are looking for. In every niche, there is efforts and time involved. With that there is some expectation of compensation. We are here to provide what we can at the best $$ amount possible while feeling like we have been compensated fairly while providing the support and backing on said products as well. It certainly is a tough business trying to do it all, that is for sure.

Rob
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      08-12-2013, 01:48 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob@RBTurbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vargasturbotech View Post
I stand corrected you did say high 3K range. Looks like until we both get one on a car its all guess work, as far as spool and HP. But tuning, fuel, and supporting mods will tell a big story for the hybrid. If someone thinks they can buy an upgraded turbo, slap it on and make 500 WHP they need to know that is not the case, same as it isn't the case with the N54, there are a lot of mods that have to be done to get it there.
Yes, other supporting mods will be necessary for either situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vargasturbotech View Post
One last thing as far as core charge. I have not had one person opt to keep their core on the N54's or N55. So adding in $1500 to our cost really isn't fair. The Upgrade is $3999
The reason no one has selected to keep the core as the core charge is $1500. Who would keep a turbo when they could get a $1500 refund? At that point, yes, send the core back as that is a lot of $$$ to recover! But for those who would like to keep their turbo, for any reason, they will have to pay the core charge and eat the cost. The fact remains that we will not have a core charge and thus will not incur a $1500 expense. It is certainly fair to say the core charge is a tangible argument when it comes to pricing as it sits today. Hell, as an RB N55 guy, you could sell their unit to someone using your program for a $1500 refund if they wish!

Rob
The core charge is not tangible at all, so N54 RB's should be priced at $3399 for LHD 335's and $3599 for RHD, 1,and 5's then right? As a hybrid turbo builder you know the importance of cores, and you know exactly how important cores are on a new platform. Our upgrade is $3999 with core exchange, that's how exchange turbos have worked for years, you know this but since it's in your best interest you want say otherwise now to make your upgrade appear closely priced to ours. It's not, while you are at it, let Weistec and AMS know their 9,0000 core charge for the upgraded Benz turbos is actually part of the price of their kit. Any turbo builder knows you price hard to find cores high so you get them back, as you need them to keep building. This comparison is going along very smoothly and with class, don't muck it up with this bs core argument that goes against your own business model for the N54's
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      08-12-2013, 01:56 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vargasturbotech View Post
The core charge is not tangible at all, so N54 RB's should be priced at $3399 for LHD 335's and $3599 for RHD, 1,and 5's then right? As a hybrid turbo builder you know the importance of cores, and you know exactly how important cores are on a new platform. Our upgrade is $3999 with core exchange, that's how exchange turbos have worked for years, you know this but since it's in your best interest you want say otherwise now to make your upgrade appear closely priced to ours. It's not, while you are at it, let Weistec and AMS know their 9,0000 core charge for the upgraded Benz turbos is actually part of the price of their kit. Any turbo builder knows you price hard to find cores high so you get them back, as you need them to keep building. This comparison is going along very smoothly and with class, don't muck it up with this bs core argument that goes against your own business model for the N54's
okkkaayyyyyyyy
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      08-12-2013, 02:24 PM   #17
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Just to be clear-

If you buy N55 hybrids: You have to pay a core charge. In the case of the N55 hybrid it is at a significant $1500, which puts you at $5500 total cost. If you have no reason to keep your OEM turbo and would otherwise be throwing it in the garbage, it is a moot point, as it is refunded by simply mailing the unit back in to get your refund- which would get you back to $3999.

However, some will wish to keep their OEM turbo for a reversability and/or backup factor (this is a common undeniable concern); and if this is YOU and with the N55 you have a large pill to swallow at a $1500 core charge. Regardless of your situation, with the RB full kit, we will not need your core. This means you can sell it to someone perhaps doing the Vargas N55 Hybrid for whatever you wish you can get for it (which would act as a rebate), or keep it as a backup. You will not be penalized for doing as such as we have no use for the unit as we feel it will not make much additional power by modifying it.

At this point, you can see there is some good reason to say the core issue is a tangible price discussion point. If it were $500 or so like the N54 units, unlike the $1500 it actually is, it would be less of an issue.

Rob
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      08-12-2013, 03:49 PM   #18
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Let also argue about forged or not n54 vs n55!!!!!!!
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      08-12-2013, 04:35 PM   #19
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Let also argue about forged or not n54 vs n55!!!!!!!
haha.
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      08-12-2013, 04:45 PM   #20
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Are the n55 forged?
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      08-12-2013, 05:26 PM   #21
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Are the n55 forged?
Cast.
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      08-12-2013, 05:33 PM   #22
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Cast.
Ouch what a step down from the n54. BMW gaining some profit margin there
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