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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N55 Turbo Engine Tuning and Exhaust Modifications - 335i Tuning > VTT vs RB N55 Turbo Upgrade



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      08-12-2013, 06:14 PM   #23
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Yea, so it seems. That's progress for ya!
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      08-12-2013, 07:27 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by divisionbell77 View Post
Let also argue about forged or not n54 vs n55!!!!!!!
Thank you. When there is nothing left to argue about, lets argue about......... Cores?
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      08-12-2013, 08:40 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vargasturbotech View Post
Thank you. When there is nothing left to argue about, lets argue about......... Cores?
What is the customers recourse if the hybrid solution makes 50-100rwhp less than advertised? Or are you going to use the test car to get real results before selling? Genuinely curious.
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      08-12-2013, 08:42 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turugara View Post
I wish there were five more vendors making turbos for this platform. If there were 10 more vendors, then the profit margins would be tiny and we would have options for any horsepower. Competition is such a great thing.
Soon my friend. Soon.
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      08-12-2013, 08:54 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turugara View Post
I wish there were five more vendors making turbos for this platform. If there were 10 more vendors, then the profit margins would be tiny and we would have options for any horsepower. Competition is such a great thing.
If it were easy, there would be. Pretty much answers your question as to why there isn't
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      08-12-2013, 08:59 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob@RBTurbo View Post
What is the customers recourse if the hybrid solution makes 50-100rwhp less than advertised? Or are you going to use the test car to get real results before selling? Genuinely curious.
Well when we get a test car and get the turbo on it(which is supposed to ship from the machine shop tomorrow), we will do our testing, when you get yours done, and on, you will do your testing. My feeling is the tuning, fueling, is going to be the roadblock for the near future just as it was on the N54, not the turbo, it took the N54 a while to get where it is. The good news is we sized our turbo big enough to grow as the tuning / platform does and still retain stock fitment and exterior. Glad this thread is friendly but you concentrate on your upgrade and we will do the same. Looking forward to bringing everyone results.
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      08-12-2013, 09:09 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vargasturbotech View Post
Well when we get a test car and get the turbo on it(which is supposed to ship from the machine shop tomorrow), we will do our testing, when you get yours done, and on, you will do your testing. My feeling is the tuning, fueling, is going to be the roadblock for the near future just as it was on the N54, not the turbo, it took the N54 a while to get where it is. The good news is we sized our turbo big enough to grow as the tuning / platform does and still retain stock fitment and exterior. Glad this thread is friendly but you concentrate on your upgrade and we will do the same. Looking forward to bringing everyone results.
Glad you are doing testing before selling. Thats a good strategy. Just better than saying "whoops, sorry, we were 50+rwhp off expectations... but hope you like it anyway".
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      08-13-2013, 03:41 PM   #30
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Vargas, how do you expect to get 500-550whp out of the GTX3076? In the native housings with a good sized .82 housing the turbo seems to be topped out around 460whp. The whp went from 450 to 456 while raising the boost 3psi, according to the graphs you provided from Perrin. If you raise the boost 3 psi and get 6 whp, then it is tapped out or there is another huge restriction in the system. I wouldn't expect that to be the case as this was a comparrison and you wouldn't want restrictions in place.

On a Supra I saw 470whp on a DD dyno at 26.5psi (nothing left after that, 2 psi produced no more power), but that is in the larger native housing. I think Rob is probably closer and you are looking at 450-475 DJ whp. The above supra also hit full spool after 3k RPM, but boost threshold should have been around 2800. It was about 3psi at 3k. I would expect N55 spool to be quicker because of the small housing and more efficient engine.

Are you leaving the housings stock or are they getting reworked too? If you are machining much material off the wheels that will obviously help spool too. That said, the Vargas fits my needs better. I am looking for 450-500whp and no more than 500 RPM more lag as I have a 6AT. I think it might be able to squeak out the whp and hoping the lag is in there too...
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      08-13-2013, 04:32 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JETmn View Post
Vargas, how do you expect to get 500-550whp out of the GTX3076? In the native housings with a good sized .82 housing the turbo seems to be topped out around 460whp. The whp went from 450 to 456 while raising the boost 3psi, according to the graphs you provided from Perrin. If you raise the boost 3 psi and get 6 whp, then it is tapped out or there is another huge restriction in the system. I wouldn't expect that to be the case as this was a comparrison and you wouldn't want restrictions in place.

On a Supra I saw 470whp on a DD dyno at 26.5psi (nothing left after that, 2 psi produced no more power), but that is in the larger native housing. I think Rob is probably closer and you are looking at 450-475 DJ whp. The above supra also hit full spool after 3k RPM, but boost threshold should have been around 2800. It was about 3psi at 3k. I would expect N55 spool to be quicker because of the small housing and more efficient engine.

Are you leaving the housings stock or are they getting reworked too? If you are machining much material off the wheels that will obviously help spool too. That said, the Vargas fits my needs better. I am looking for 450-500whp and no more than 500 RPM more lag as I have a 6AT. I think it might be able to squeak out the whp and hoping the lag is in there too...
Here are a small sprinkling of GTX3076 all well in the 500WHP-550WHP range and some higher than 600 WHP on motors that are non DI and no where near as efficient as the N55, fueling and tuning is going to be the key. These housings will keep them from their full capacity but 500WHP will be supported.

93+ meth 16psi 533 WHP
http://www.evans-tuning.com/dynos/20...whp388tq-kpro/

Also may want to take a look at this thread as many people are making 550WHP plus with the GTX3076R many on a .63 housing. The GTX range is very very versatile and the GTX3076 has shown to be quite efficient above 500WHP
http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2944657

STI's are notoriously inefficient. 550WHP 2.5L .82

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=2437542

Ford Focus with a GTX3076R with a .63 housing on E85 613 WHP

http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2890662

GTX3076R 22psi 93+ meth 580WHP


Can you find lower GTX3076 dynos on the internet of course you can. Basically all these are showing is that the GTX3076 can make anywhere from 400-600 WHP depending on tuning, fuel, engine, modifications, etc. What we have already found out with the N54 is that these high compression / DI engines are very efficient. These numbers are all speculation, but once we get testing with some good fuel, and a proper tune, we shall see. We have no doubts we have built a 500 WHP hybrid.

Last edited by Tony@vargasturbotech; 08-13-2013 at 07:21 PM.
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      08-14-2013, 10:37 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob@RBTurbo
Just to be clear-

If you buy N55 hybrids: You have to pay a core charge. In the case of the N55 hybrid it is at a significant $1500, which puts you at $5500 total cost. If you have no reason to keep your OEM turbo and would otherwise be throwing it in the garbage, it is a moot point, as it is refunded by simply mailing the unit back in to get your refund- which would get you back to $3999.

However, some will wish to keep their OEM turbo for a reversability and/or backup factor (this is a common undeniable concern); and if this is YOU and with the N55 you have a large pill to swallow at a $1500 core charge. Regardless of your situation, with the RB full kit, we will not need your core. This means you can sell it to someone perhaps doing the Vargas N55 Hybrid for whatever you wish you can get for it (which would act as a rebate), or keep it as a backup. You will not be penalized for doing as such as we have no use for the unit as we feel it will not make much additional power by modifying it.

At this point, you can see there is some good reason to say the core issue is a tangible price discussion point. If it were $500 or so like the N54 units, unlike the $1500 it actually is, it would be less of an issue.

Rob
Clarification:

Vargas has stated " Our upgrade is $3999 with core exchange, "

Does it mean what Rob has suggested of an addition of $1500 to the price for the core ..... or does "with" mean included in the price?

This is a huge difference... and is a major deciding factor for those looking to surpass 400whp on their N55... however the final numbers if attainable (500whp - 550whp) would prove its worth....

Else

In comparison if Rob base falls within the ball park of Vargas hybrid... then the core cost of Vargas benefits Rob...
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      08-14-2013, 07:11 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
oh what? where have you been?

if anything - Shiv would know bout tuning on a single turbo for the
N55 platform...
hardware and software
left to die in the desert for the n55 platform.
tnks Shiv.
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      08-14-2013, 07:25 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by melloww22 View Post
Clarification:

Vargas has stated " Our upgrade is $3999 with core exchange, "

Does it mean what Rob has suggested of an addition of $1500 to the price for the core ..... or does "with" mean included in the price?

This is a huge difference... and is a major deciding factor for those looking to surpass 400whp on their N55... however the final numbers if attainable (500whp - 550whp) would prove its worth....

Else

In comparison if Rob base falls within the ball park of Vargas hybrid... then the core cost of Vargas benefits Rob...
A core is a core, its always refundable. If you want to send us a core first to build, you pay nothing but $3999, we offer the core program as a convenience to the customer so their car is not down while we upgrade their turbocharger. There is absolutely nothing that dictates a customer has to pay the core to get the upgrade. Buy an extra turbo and send it in, you pay $3999. You only pay the core if you want to have a fast turn around time so your car isn't down. Then once you get your old turbo off, you send it back and you get the $1500 refunded. Its not magic, its not shady, its nothing new, with new platforms like this, core charges are standard and always high to ensure we get the cores back. As I said go check out the AMS website, some of their core charges are $9000. This whole core sidetrack was to try to make it appear as if our upgrade is in the same price range as the RB upgrade. Its not.
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      08-14-2013, 07:26 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankiE90 View Post
oh what? where have you been?

if anything - Shiv would know bout tuning on a single turbo for the
N55 platform...
hardware and software
left to die in the desert for the n55 platform.
tnks Shiv.
Franki, don't mind the Shiv troll, who only shows up in my threads to well be a troll. Yes, whatever did happen to that big Vishnu N55 tuning program. He sold a lot of software and never supported any of it. Hmmmmm
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      08-14-2013, 10:07 PM   #36
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im happy that both vendors (RB and VargasP) are building on the platform -
because it has been a challenge tun'n wise - terry and shiv have been
a big part on the forum for the N55. hats off to them

- I would think with the f80 soon to be here, that it will help even
further development - give cudos for both vendors. // cheers.


btw - its funny to see shiv pop in once so often...
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      08-15-2013, 08:26 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vargasturbotech View Post
Then once you get your old turbo off, you send it back and you get the $1500 refunded. Its not magic, its not shady, its nothing new, with new platforms like this, core charges are standard and always high to ensure we get the cores back. This whole core sidetrack was to try to make it appear as if our upgrade is in the same price range as the RB upgrade. Its not.
I was never trying to insinuate that the core process is shady. It is just a fact of life when dealing with upgraded hybrids.

What I was trying to suggest here is not rocket science. When you remove a turbo, it has a great value (especially if it is in mint shape). That value can be recovered by NOT having to pay a core charge and by NOT having to send it away to recover said core charge. Simply put, if you buy a turbo setup for x dollars that does not require a core charge (such as RB)... you can sell the original unit at y dollars and then thus end up costing you a final price of x-y. Whether it is via core process, or via outright sales on Ebay, there is a rebate of sorts that will help the final pricing.

I have a hunch most guys are going to have very nice OEM N55 Borg Warner turbos that could likely pull a fair amount of coin on Ebay or to others looking for cores for a program such as yours.

I agree also that there should be no debating this either way, we both know the ins and outs of having to deal with cores and that program very clearly.

Rob
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      08-15-2013, 10:41 AM   #38
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I am surprised to see Shiv in here, how did he have the time to post? lol
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      08-15-2013, 11:15 AM   #39
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all i know is when it comes time to get rid of n54. (hopefully years away) These n55 upgrades will determine if i stay with bmw or not.

soon upgraded RB n54 vs VTT N55. comparison race id like to see!!!!!!
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      08-15-2013, 11:16 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam335ix View Post
I am surprised to see Shiv in here, how did he have the time to post? lol
Im still waiting on n55 upgrade from vishnu

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      08-15-2013, 12:03 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazylegs View Post
Im still waiting on n55 upgrade from vishnu

Good luck with that buddy. I think this was the first time Shiv posted in the N55 section in...months. Great customer support from the Vishnu team!
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      08-15-2013, 12:21 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sA x sKy View Post
Good luck with that buddy. I think this was the first time Shiv posted in the N55 section in...months. Great customer support from the Vishnu team!
Lol. Wait till the open flash functions for the n55 and he starts selling. Then, he will be back you'll have the best tune a customer service ever.
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      08-15-2013, 12:42 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob@RBTurbo View Post
I think you may overestimate what the profit margins are on some products. The key is identifying correctly which products those are...

Rob
+1000
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      08-15-2013, 04:41 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onesuperboi View Post
Lol. Wait till the open flash functions for the n55 and he starts selling. Then, he will be back you'll have the best tune a customer service ever.
Lol doesn't help the people who bought his proshit product. How many times did we hear that there was an n55 update incoming but never came through?
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