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      09-05-2013, 08:20 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by quattrogmbh View Post
As we're quoting a diverse range of news sources, how about this one?

http://www.timesofisrael.com/obama-s...s-truly-alone/
An interesting read, from a different perspective, but raising that old chess nut of Iran being hell-bent on acquiring nuclear weapons...
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      09-05-2013, 09:12 AM   #134
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And you call ME stupid and imature!
Yuo seem to have an unhealthy obsession with male genitalia my friend
Unhealthy obsession? Well if you think that prison guards touching male genitalia of inmates, which some of them held for decades with trial, whenever they leave and return to cells is fine then you're twisted. I think its the prison guards and the Government that have the unhealthy obsession, to torture inmates physically and mentally in whichever way they can. Touching up genitalia is another form of that.
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      09-05-2013, 09:18 AM   #135
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Unhealthy obsession?...prison guards touching male genitalia of inmates, which some of them held for decades.
Think you might want to re-word that sentence, unless they truly have held them for decades which is quite an impressive feat!
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      09-05-2013, 09:40 AM   #136
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Think you might want to re-word that sentence, unless they truly have held them for decades which is quite an impressive feat!
Haha
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      09-05-2013, 03:10 PM   #137
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http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/fea...527769518.html

The above is an example that Al Jazeera is not an anti semitic news broadcaster as someone has suggested. It's a heart warming story about Jews and Muslims coming together against hate.

I will keep saying this, jews and muslims in Israel/Palestine can do the same, and most want to. They are just being divided by the aggressive Israeli military campaign on settlements. This campaign affects people in neighbouring countries, such as Syria.
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      09-05-2013, 03:51 PM   #138
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Think you might want to re-word that sentence, unless they truly have held them for decades which is quite an impressive feat!

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      09-05-2013, 03:59 PM   #139
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...
For those who don't know, Al jazeera is a Qatar owned anti American; anti Semetic network. It is a propaganda outfit for the middle eastern autocrats; it is funded by petro-dollars that come from Qatar and the UAE, and most concerningly it props-up the fundamentalists of the middle east.

...
Al Jazeera is no more a propaganda machine than is Fox News or MSNBC. The three of them together are just peas in a pod. Of all the content these organizations release, 70% is editorial in nature and purpose and the remainder can be accepted as fact.

"Trust but verity" is pretty much the axiom by which one must live these days, regardless of the source. Occasionally, a fact is reported that speaks for itself and there is neither more nor less to it. Quite often, that is not the case.
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      09-05-2013, 05:00 PM   #140
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Al Jazeera is no more a propaganda machine than is Fox News or MSNBC. The three of them together are just peas in a pod. Of all the content these organizations release, 70% is editorial in nature and purpose and the remainder can be accepted as fact.

"Trust but verity" is pretty much the axiom by which one must live these days, regardless of the source. Occasionally, a fact is reported that speaks for itself and there is neither more nor less to it. Quite often, that is not the case.
Well, that's what they're there for 'to give an opinion on a topical issue'.

I'll quote you in an email to Bill O'reilly and get back to you with his response.
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      09-05-2013, 06:22 PM   #141
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Well, that's what they're there for 'to give an opinion on a topical issue'.

I'll quote you in an email to Bill O'reilly and get back to you with his response.
Do that. I'd be interested to read his response. While you're at it, send a copy to Rachael Maddow. As far as I can tell, she's just Bill's liberal equivalent. I suspect, however, that both are well aware of whom they are and the nature of the content they present.

In truth, I have no problem with either one of them. I only have a problem with viewers who listen to/watch either of them and lack the savvy to realize that they are hearing mostly editorial commentary disguised as news. All news outlets, including Fox and MSNBC, and Bill and Rachael in particular, have no choice but to minimally cast bias into their reporting by culling the extent of information they choose to report on any given topic. Fox and MSNBC, along with Al Jazeera, tend to "cull" the facts so that what they report takes on a certain cast.

Unbiased editorial presentations of divergent points of view call for presenting the meritorious aspects of both sides of an argument. None of those organizations do that. Not all organizations can do that. CNN, Reuters, and the PBS Newshour do at least try to do so, albeit with varying degrees of success. Mostly, however, the burden is on us, the general public, to objectively explore issues on our own. Unfortunately, many common citizens lack the skills and/or motivation to do so, instead preferring to find some "credible" organization that's saying what it is they want to hear.

All the best.
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      09-06-2013, 07:15 AM   #142
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So would you say Wikileaks is credible?

Tony i just realised you're from Washington, DC! I don't suppose you, your family or friends work within the Government?
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      09-06-2013, 10:37 AM   #143
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Looks like the US have more than the French in support of an invasion..

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ohn-Kerry.html
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      09-06-2013, 10:53 AM   #144
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Looks like the US have more than the French in support of an invasion..

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ohn-Kerry.html

"John Kerry reveals Arab countries have offered to PAY America to carry out full-scale invasion of Syria."

Wow, I wonder if I can pay the US to come and sort out my neighbour, he's being a bit of a pain at the moment
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      09-06-2013, 11:37 AM   #145
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"John Kerry reveals Arab countries have offered to PAY America to carry out full-scale invasion of Syria."

Wow, I wonder if I can pay the US to come and sort out my neighbour, he's being a bit of a pain at the moment
Sounds a bit like Gun's for hire now. Is there a price list?
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      09-06-2013, 07:07 PM   #146
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Sounds a bit like Gun's for hire now. Is there a price list?
I don't know, but if they want to pay the US for something it would do even if they didn't pay, I'm fine with them paying.
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      09-06-2013, 07:24 PM   #147
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So would you say Wikileaks is credible?

Tony i just realised you're from Washington, DC! I don't suppose you, your family or friends work within the Government?
I don't work for the US Government. I have friends who do, but I've only had one relative in family in the 300+ years we've been in this place who's been a government employee. That was my uncle who was a White House doorman.

As for Wikileaks' credibility, it's hard for me to conclude definitively with a yes or no answer. The reason it's hard is because the nature of the content Wikilieaks provides makes them a fine target for manipulation. Just as spy agencies will at times "turn" a rival agency's spies or contacts by providing them with misinformation, Wikileaks is susceptible to the same form of chicanery. With that in mind, to the extent that a Wikileaks story is confirmed by the organization/person about which its content discloses information, I think Wikileaks is credible. All other Wikileaks content, however, I would take with the same grain of salt that I do information obtained from other sources.
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      09-06-2013, 08:45 PM   #148
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A White House doorman? That must be a seriously cool job to have!

I think Wikileaks is credible as none of their information has been disproved, as far as i'm aware. Also the fact that the US are seriously on Assange's case shows they aren't happy with their secrets being released. Therefore i believe the not-for-profit wikileaks is a far more credible source of infomation than any news broadcaster.

The followng joint statement was made at the G20 summit today/yesterday by a few countries, including the US and UK:

Quote:
"The use of chemical weapons anywhere diminishes the security of people everywhere," the statement said.

"Left unchallenged, it increases the risk of further use and proliferation of these weapons."
I actually can't believe they expect the public to take that statement seriously. Maybe most of the public do, due to them being disillusioned and blinded by their love for their country, which should not be the same as their love for their ruling Government. But unfortunately i suspect in most cases it is as people are not prepared to make that distinction.

So tony, do you at least accept that the US Government is hypocritical, in regards to the use of chemical weapons?

If you do agree with the US being hypocritical, then surely they can't be going in Syria for moral reasons? Logic states that, due to them using chemical weapons themselves in the past, this act does not violate their morals (because obviously if it did go against their morals they would not have used chemical weapons themselves). Therefore it is illogical that another country using chemical weapons would violate the US' moral standards, apart from two exceptions:

1) The US believe they, and allies such as the UK and Israel, are far more superior to other countries and therefore have the moral right to use chemical weapons.

2) The US have suddenly changed their moral standards and have decided that the use of chemical weapons is immoral.


I'm inclined to go with number one. Or, if morality isn't the reason, then it's another unknown reason.

I never thought in a million years the US Government would be helping the rebels, who are lunatics with links to Al Quaeda and murder Syrian Christians. How do you think your troops feel after fighting Al Quaeda for over a decade, seeing lives lost to them, and now they are helping them out? It has also been revealed that the CIA are training rebels to use military weapons and communication equipment. What about the War on Terror?
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      09-07-2013, 05:52 AM   #149
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6000 deaths in the battle between Israel and Palestine since 2000? Not far off, here's the actual figures - At least 1,104 Israelis and 6,829 Palestinians have been killed since September 29, 2000, that's a ratio of nearly 7 to 1 in this war. Of the 6,829 Palestinians, 1,519 were children and approximately 3,800 were civilians.

The taking of land by Israeli's is an illegal act in international law, yet the US continues to 'allow' their friend to do it.

Al Jazeera TV has as much right to exist and be referenced as the BBC or NBC or whatever your news service of choice happens to be! If you've never watched a bit of Al Jazeera news channel on Sky, I suggest you give it 5minutes of your time - it doesn't follow the news agenda of western news channels and therefore provides a sometimes interesting balance.

Trusting what the media (any media) reports to us as 'facts' should always be open to question. US media watchdog FAIR - Fairness and Accurary in Reporting - make the comment that when a foreign government is in favour with the US, with the White House, it's human rights record is basically off the mainstream media agenda, and when they do something that puts them out of favour with the US government, the foreign government's human rights abuses are, all of a sudden, major news.
This is the real issue ! I am of Palestinian origin, I have family in the West Bank and also Saidon in South of Lebanon. Israel is persecuting the Palestinians and the US are allowing / funding it.

I love America and enjoy visiting often however the government and their foreign policy stinks, full of double standards and personal agendas.

Anyway wrt the issue in Syria - did Assad use Chem weapons ? If he did then he should be brought to justice (so should every other gov who has btw !!) but tbh we don't really know do we??

The people have voted and we aren't going in - which is good IMO.

All I ask is that we represent a civilised and developed world and be decent to each other on this thread - it started well but has got a bit personal in the last few pages.

I agree with a lot of what Mob has said but of course everyone is entitled their opinions whether for or against but keep it nice people !!

Much love x
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      09-09-2013, 02:14 PM   #150
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Can't help feeling that there is a little irony in this BBC London news story......

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-23632245

I guess Agent Orange used by US Forces in Vietnam must be 'good' chemical weapons....

Now don't get me wrong, I am a huge supporter of the US and the close military relationship and shared values we have, but bombing Syria would be a calamitous action and have a load of unintended consequences. Hats off to the Russians for trying to break the deadlock, Obama needs to see this as a face saving way out of otherwise leading the US/World towards somewhere none of us want to be.
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      09-09-2013, 02:39 PM   #151
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Quote:
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...
I think Wikileaks is credible as none of their information has been disproved, as far as i'm aware. Also the fact that the US are seriously on Assange's case shows they aren't happy with their secrets being released. Therefore i believe the not-for-profit wikileaks is a far more credible source of infomation than any news broadcaster.
A somewhat reasonable, albeit circumstantial, line of thinking. It was never disproved that L.H. Oswald killed President Kennedy. That doesn't make it also true that he was in fact the killer. I'm not disagreeing with per se but merely pointing out the fact that because Wikileaks' stories haven't been disproven doesn't make them true, particularly given that much of what they publish isn't likely to be admitted to.

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...
So tony, do you at least accept that the US Government is hypocritical, in regards to the use of chemical weapons?

If you do agree with the US being hypocritical, then surely they can't be going in Syria for moral reasons? Logic states that, due to them using chemical weapons themselves in the past, this act does not violate their morals (because obviously if it did go against their morals they would not have used chemical weapons themselves). Therefore it is illogical that another country using chemical weapons would violate the US' moral standards, apart from two exceptions:

1) The US believe they, and allies such as the UK and Israel, are far more superior to other countries and therefore have the moral right to use chemical weapons.

2) The US have suddenly changed their moral standards and have decided that the use of chemical weapons is immoral.


I'm inclined to go with number one. Or, if morality isn't the reason, then it's another unknown reason.
To answer your question, no, I don't think the US is being hypocritical about the use of chemical weapons. I would think it hypocrisy if the US were to do so again. Have you never done something only to some time later, after considering it in hindsight, come to believe it was something you should not have been done and with the benefit of your experience advise against others doing the same thing? Lessons learned by one should be used by others to avoid making the same mistake.

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I never thought in a million years the US Government would be helping the rebels, who are lunatics with links to Al Quaeda and murder Syrian Christians. How do you think your troops feel after fighting Al Quaeda for over a decade, seeing lives lost to them, and now they are helping them out? It has also been revealed that the CIA are training rebels to use military weapons and communication equipment. What about the War on Terror?
What is it I'm to say to that? I've said since my first post here that the US should just let the Syria situation be what it is, a civil war, and stay the hell out of it. As I see it, choosing a side in that mess would be nothing more than choose what one sees as the lesser of two evils. But the lesser of two evils is still evil. Investing our resources in the fray is just sending good resources after bad. Better not to choose, IMO.
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      09-09-2013, 03:01 PM   #152
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...
If you do agree with the US being hypocritical, then surely they can't be going in Syria for moral reasons? Logic states that, due to them using chemical weapons themselves in the past, this act does not violate their morals (because obviously if it did go against their morals they would not have used chemical weapons themselves). Therefore it is illogical that another country using chemical weapons would violate the US' moral standards, apart from two exceptions:

1) The US believe they, and allies such as the UK and Israel, are far more superior to other countries and therefore have the moral right to use chemical weapons.

2) The US have suddenly changed their moral standards and have decided that the use of chemical weapons is immoral.


I'm inclined to go with number one. Or, if morality isn't the reason, then it's another unknown reason.

...
Specifically regarding your two options above:

I don't think there is any doubt that the US and UK as countries and governments are superior to any number of other countries, not the least of which is Syria. I don't know enough about Israel to say whether they are superior. I don't see the connection between that superiority and having a moral right to use chemical weapons.

Even granting your first option, the wrongs one nation/person may have committed in the past do not provide justification for another to do so now.
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      09-11-2013, 11:32 PM   #153
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Yep i've made many mistakes in the past, like most people, but have learnt from those mistakes. So i don't repeat them and don't try to justify repeating them by influencing others

So you're going with option 2 then, that the US have realised their previous bad actions and have learnt from them, and now preaching the gospel onto others? Hmm that would work if the US only used chemical weapons once before. Doesn't really work if they've used them multiple times? It could be true, but a very very low chance that your rulers have had this sudden consciousness.

I totally agree with you regarding our poor troops, who are just used in these wars then forgotten about by the Government after. I also agree that there shouldn't be a link between superiority and the moral use of chemical weapons, but considering option 2 isn't viable, it leaves option 1:

I believe our countries feel they have a right to invade whichever country they want because they are superior and no one can stop them.

Quote:
Even granting your first option, the wrongs one nation/person may have committed in the past do not provide justification for another to do so now.
Agree. If only your Government thought like that. "WMDs in Iraq? Lets bomb 'em!" The US can't just use moral views when it suits them.

Tony, i feel you are wanting to believe (or you do believe) that your Government is there to protect you and to help gain world peace. I can understand why you would want to believe this. America has a great history and anything to tarnish that would be upsetting. But being an American is about Freedom (i think it is??). Unfortunately many citizens feel it is freedom from the "terrorists" and not freedom from the Rulers. I'll leave you with a quote from Abraham Lincoln:

Quote:
“I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. As a result of the war, corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands, and the Republic is destroyed. I feel at this moment more anxiety for the safety of my country than ever before, even in the midst of war.”
– Abraham Lincoln - In a letter written to William Elkin

The above is what happens when a country uses a private central bank to issue its monetary notes to the Government - repayable with interest. Only one logical outcome. Loads of Debt! And the money just trickles all the way to Wall Street. The US "Federal" reserve issues your notes. I put federal in quotes as its NOT federal, its a private central bank.

Well what's the solution? I'll quote my new friend Abraham Lincoln again:

Quote:
“The Government should create, issue, and circulate all the currency and credits needed to satisfy the spending power of the Government and the buying power of consumers. By the adoption of these principles, the taxpayers will be saved immense sums of interest. Money will cease to be master and become the servant of humanity.”
- Abraham Lincoln
The above is what i think the last true President of America tried to do, John F Kennedy. He signed Executive Order 11110 which ordered the US Treasury to issue a new public currency, the United States Note. These new notes weren't borrowed from the Federal Reserve, but created by the US Government ad backed by silver stockpiles. This cut the interest payments to the Federal Reserve and it's control over the US was decreasing. 5 months later he was assasinated and the notes taken out of circulation, i.e back to the private system. Hmm wonder who did that? Shame they hadn't thought of muslim terrorists then, would've been perfect! No other President since Kennedy has attempted to do this again.

So i don't believe that these wars are about morals and helping people. It's about setting up private central banks and raising as much debt as possible to make money.

Bit off topic but i have a question to any followers of the Jewish religion. Do Jews pray that King Solomon's temple will be rebuilt in their lifetime, when they go to the wall in Jerusalem?
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