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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Looking for a guinea pig, turbo upgrade (we need a turbo)



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      10-09-2007, 05:12 PM   #1
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Looking for a guinea pig, turbo upgrade (we need a turbo)

Hi,

I spoke with Bryan at ForcedPerformance.com . I explained the situation about the BMW 335i turbos and he is willing to offer a solution for us. He needs first hand some pictures of the turbo and whatever we can provide.

Forcedperformance already offers all kinds of Mitsubishi turbo upgrades for DSM(9b, 13b,13g,small 16G, big 16G,14B,15C,18G,20G you name it.

They can turn our turbos into a bigger compressor wheels with existing housings. I would imagine they could also optimize flow with bigger waste gate flapper and porting etc.

We would need someone to participate on this(sending pics, taking measuments or ultimately if you have a down turbo send it to Forcedperformance.

I personally pruchased a few turbo upgrades and turbokits from these guys and I do know that they are a solution to what we are looking for. I am estimating that we can turn the stock turbos to outflow at least 30-40% for an affordable budget (I would estmate $600-700 for both) .

Please lets get the ball rolling, I brought this up months ago bute never called Forcedperformance, now they are aware. Lets make it happen.


Thanks!

Direct any e-mails to bryan@forcedperformance.com
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      10-10-2007, 07:11 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evo8MRto335I View Post
Hi,

I spoke with Bryan at ForcedPerformance.com . I explained the situation about the BMW 335i turbos and he is willing to offer a solution for us. He needs first hand some pictures of the turbo and whatever we can provide.

Forcedperformance already offers all kinds of Mitsubishi turbo upgrades for DSM(9b, 13b,13g,small 16G, big 16G,14B,15C,18G,20G you name it.

They can turn our turbos into a bigger compressor wheels with existing housings. I would imagine they could also optimize flow with bigger waste gate flapper and porting etc.

We would need someone to participate on this(sending pics, taking measuments or ultimately if you have a down turbo send it to Forcedperformance.

I personally pruchased a few turbo upgrades and turbokits from these guys and I do know that they are a solution to what we are looking for. I am estimating that we can turn the stock turbos to outflow at least 30-40% for an affordable budget (I would estmate $600-700 for both) .

Please lets get the ball rolling, I brought this up months ago bute never called Forcedperformance, now they are aware. Lets make it happen.


Thanks!

Direct any e-mails to bryan@forcedperformance.com
I am in just let me know how to do this

Cheers
Grac
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      10-10-2007, 08:07 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evo8MRto335I View Post
Hi,

They can turn our turbos into a bigger compressor wheels with existing housings.
It won't be worth it.
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      10-10-2007, 10:56 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M&M View Post
It won't be worth it.
Can you elaborate more please?. Given the negative facts:

1) Stock fuel supply is 85-95% duty cycle so there is absolutely no marging for big turbo upgrades(for now)
2) The stock turbos are physically very close to each other so it would be a huge challenge to fit bigger turbo units
3) The cost of bigger turbos would be much greater than upgrading the stock turbo units

Based on my 3 responses I am making sense. You haven't explain yourself on why it wouldn't be worth. Just about every Mitsubishi made turbo is upgradable.

I have had 15 turbo cars in which about 5 of them I changed/upgraded the turbos, I am 100% sure it can be done. Out of my 15 turbo cars, 11 of them were Mitsubishi turbo powered(2 Evos, 4 DSMs, 2 Stealths, 1WRX, 1 colt turbo) and now the BMW.


The only thing I see a bit challenging is the fact that the TD03-10T turbo is a very unpopular and rare turbo, other than that I strongly believe it is still upgradable using the existing housing.

Companies like deadboltenterprises or Forcedperformance could definately do it. I wish I had a spare BMW 335i turbo laying around, I do have other spare turbos and intercoolers in my garage but if I had a bad 335i turbo I wouldn't hesitate to send it to Forcedperformance for a R&D. That is why I am asking for your help.

my .50c
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      10-10-2007, 11:05 PM   #5
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I wish you posted this earlier... before work on my car started... my car was out of commission for 5 months. If they can do something with 3 weeks, I might be able to help...
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      10-10-2007, 11:19 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SfValley335i View Post
I wish you posted this earlier... before work on my car started... my car was out of commission for 5 months. If they can do something with 3 weeks, I might be able to help...
.

Thank you very much indeed. I am considering contacting other big turbo supliers like TEC or turbochargers.com

As I explained before, I dealt with many mitsubishi turbos in my life and my 6th sense tell me that it is the matter of finding the right source of turbos. The td04-9bs (fitted on the VR4/Stealth are cheap as hell), that is the closet Mitsubishi turbo I can think of , but the botton line here is that many people are unaware that the stock turbos are much cheaper that what you think, other small/medium size mitusbishi turbos are in the $425-450 new.

I am positive that if we all put the effort one of the companies/vendors I mentioned will be able to create us a turbo upgrade within our own turbo. Look at Dynamic Racing, they have a small market for the 3si(Stealth /VR4) they still managed to "create/fabricate" new upgrade turbos from scratch to replace the stock VR4 td04-9bs.

Look at what deadbolt enterprises have done in the past when they started on the WRXs, they created multiple bolt on turbos from scratchs with multiple choices(waste gate flapper mod, ported and polished job, bore out intake,bigger compressor or turbine wheel, etc).

I am willing to pitch in money for the shipping or whatever, I am a serious guy and I want to do something about it. If someone has a spare bad or good turbo please send me a PM. Forceperformance would like to work on your turbo as a prototype.

Thanks again
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      10-10-2007, 11:32 PM   #7
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Here's an old thread about pulling out and modifying the turbos. This sounds like a great idea. Don't know how I can help, but if there's anything just lemme know.

By the way, your performance shop shouldn't have a problem locating that specific turbo, I mean it doesnt cost that much. They should try contacting some BMW dealerships to see if anyones blown a turbo.

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...=TURBO+UPGRADE
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      10-10-2007, 11:41 PM   #8
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^^ Thanks.. I do recall seeing that post back then. I haven't seen the end results of the tuirbo upgrades that he was going to do. Technically he had the same idea and from reading his post he was doing what I am suggesting but he never really provided any sources.

My goal is to do this upgrade for the masses, providing prices, options,sourcesetc. I am sending a e-mail to that person as we speak.
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Last edited by Evo8MRto335I; 10-11-2007 at 12:03 AM.
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      10-10-2007, 11:50 PM   #9
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SFvalley335i,

Thanks for your help. I will call Forced Performance tomorrow and ask them if they can do their R&d within the 3 weeks.
Keep in mind these guys already have a huge array of Mitsubishi turbos upgrades in the market so it is not something new to them.

This is the type of work I am looking for:

http://www.gpopshop.com/upgrades.html


Garrett T3 Turbos: Upgrade from any T3 compressor wheel to most T4 compressor wheels. Example: Go from a T3 "60" Trim wheel to a T04B "S" Trim wheel. Prices start at $200
Garrett T4 Turbos: Example: Upgrade from T04E "50"" Trim wheel to a 60-1 wheel (many available). Prices start at $200
Garrett T25 Turbos: Example: Upgrade from a stock T25 wheel to a Big T28 wheel. Prices start at $200
Holset: Example: Upgrade from stock HX35 wheel to HX40 wheel. Prices start at $225

KKK K03: Example: K03 wheel to K04 wheel. Prices start at $200

Mitsubishi TD04: Stealths and 3000GT's. Example: Upgrade from a 9b compressor wheel to a 13G, or from a 9B to a 15G. Prices start at $235
Mitsubishi TD05: Example: 14B to a 16G, or 16G to 18G. Prices start at $225
Toyota CT26: Supra/MR2/Celica Alltrac. Example: Upgrade from a stock wheel to any T04B S, V, or H trim wheel, or to any T04E 46, 50, 54, 57, 60, or 60-1 trim wheel. Prices start at $235
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      10-10-2007, 11:51 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evo8MRto335I View Post
Can you elaborate more please?
If you have to see what's entailed in taking the turbos out, then you realise the labour cost is more than the cost of the turbo job.

Last edited by M&M; 10-11-2007 at 10:26 AM.
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      10-11-2007, 12:07 AM   #11
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Awesome homework^^. I will bring this to the attention of Robert and Bryan at Forcedperformance, I think you just did 50% of my homework. Noiw knowing that we can put the td04-13g we can thorw some flow numbers 360cfm at around 15psi. I am very familiar with the TD04-13G as I had a 02 WRX and one of my stealth was converted to 13G from 9bs.

One question though. Do you think the surging was possibly caused by the fact that the stock turbo has a tiny flapper? if this is the case it would be very cheap to modify then for a lets say 31-34mm flapper if needed. I am not informed of the stopck flapper size but I can see the stock turbo having surging issues when fitted with the td04-13g compressor wheel.

This picture reveals and confirms why the bmw 335i has such a weak top end. There is plenty of "spare room" in the hotside, I just hate that the turbine wheel is too close to the wall though.

Again, thank you soo much for providing the info.
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      10-11-2007, 12:24 AM   #12
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Hey bro, if you were to guess off the top of your head, what would be the performance figures with modified turbos? You brought up a good point that alot of people dont realize. Our turbos really are very close to each other. Not a lot of room for bigger ones.
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      10-11-2007, 01:08 AM   #13
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^^^ I am glad we are narrowing down to the realistic options. An aftermarket set of turbos will have to involve changing the exhaust manifolds(header) thus making the price into the thousands.

For the reasons that we had covered(lack of room) , technically whatever wheel you can fit inside the stock turbo housings should not affect on any way the installation/removal of the turbos meaning that this is a friendly mod with not special "fabrications" or "cutting", etc.

I think that these are plenty of pictures for me to send to Forcedperformance. What is the inlet diameter? 38mm?

M&M, thanks soo much for your contribution.
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      10-11-2007, 01:21 AM   #14
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Well....Well... I was thinking and twisting my thoughts and I came up with an additional idea to this mess.

It has become very very obvious that replacing the turbos with bigger turbos might not even be feasible(headers would have to be modified) however the idea of a single turbo with a single header might clear up some room and make things more doable. But off course that would also involve a custom downpipe and custom intercoler pipes(b.oth not difficult at all to make).

Having 6 cylinders feeding one turbo, having 3000cc displacement and a double Vanos they all enhance the spool up of the turbo. But this was just a thought, I am focusing on the stock turbos.
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      10-11-2007, 02:44 AM   #15
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Sounds like a lot of work for not much payoff. Have you thought of a remote turbo set up in addition to the stock turbos?

http://ststurbo.com/uni
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      10-11-2007, 04:17 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evo8MRto335I View Post
Well....Well... I was thinking and twisting my thoughts and I came up with an additional idea to this mess.

It has become very very obvious that replacing the turbos with bigger turbos might not even be feasible(headers would have to be modified) however the idea of a single turbo with a single header might clear up some room and make things more doable. But off course that would also involve a custom downpipe and custom intercoler pipes(b.oth not difficult at all to make).

Having 6 cylinders feeding one turbo, having 3000cc displacement and a double Vanos they all enhance the spool up of the turbo. But this was just a thought, I am focusing on the stock turbos.
Interesting idea, which makes a lot of sense, but I wouldn't do it. The lag would annoy me even with the substantial increase in power. I'd rather make more with two snails and than one big snail.

Besides, the beauty of this mod is that the car will look completely stock which is a big plus for me while we still have warranty. Maybe in 4 years when the warranty is gone, I'll do something more substantial. For now, my quest continues to be making 500hp.

Can you explain exactly what this modification means for people who don't understand if fully?
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      10-11-2007, 11:25 PM   #17
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That's a great idea... And lag with a 13G would be minimal still. I had twin 15Gs on my SpyderVR4 and with proper tuning and a modified MAF, it spooled up plenty fast...
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      10-11-2007, 11:59 PM   #18
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What is the feasibility of a full port of the stock turbos. At that point you don't have to worry about clearance of upgraded turbos, new manifolds, etc? I'm not 100% on the port work on the BMW engines, but on other cars you see some fairly impressive results from a full port and polish of everything you can get your hands on.
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      10-12-2007, 12:02 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gum5h03 View Post
Sounds like a lot of work for not much payoff. Have you thought of a remote turbo set up in addition to the stock turbos?

http://ststurbo.com/uni





that was funnnnnyyyyy!!!!!










.......remote turbo setup......



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      10-12-2007, 03:58 PM   #20
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Actually it wouldn't be eficient on the BMW but it works very well on the Camaros, Trans Ams and all that.
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      10-12-2007, 09:32 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BoLaS View Post





that was funnnnnyyyyy!!!!!
.......remote turbo setup......
Ahmm, what's so funny? You never seen a big ass turbo rig that's run under the car?

http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/te...rbo/index.html
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      01-05-2008, 07:11 PM   #22
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Where did this land? Given the tight engine, using stock turbo housings will probably end up being a more common option here than on other cars.

Where is the data on what kind of duty cycles the stock fuel system runs at? I can't find jack via search...

These guys (FP) ended up beinga pretty good option on the WRX until the aftermarket turbos started flowing onto the market.
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