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      09-16-2013, 06:23 PM   #1
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best $1000 on e93 Logic 7 system

First and foremost, i would like to thank everyone who posted quality information on the forum.

Special thanks to kaigoss69 who pretty much gave me the awesome ideas and support.



So, i have 2008, e93 335i with Logic 7 sound system. and with PDC

I kind of like the system as it is, but i definitely feel that it needs some work.

So, i decided to spend around $1000 to upgrade the system.

The following is the list of upgrades i am planning to do, equipments, wires and etc.



MS-8

OEM center tweeter

12"sub [JBL GTI MKII ]

5channel amp [ XR-5S ]

Technic harness for L7. [i have one already, but do i need two? or 1 is all i need?]

power wiring for the amp (amp wiring kit, 8 gauge)

a wiring kit for the MS-8 ( either 8 or 10 gauge)

1 speaker wire [16 or 12 gauge]

2 RCAs

1 wire that connects PDC to MS-8 [i dont know exactly what kind of cable i need]




So my question is,, i am planning to do Infinte baffle [IB] for my 12' sub, and mounting it on the ski pass.

Where can i get a bracket(?) or mounting set ups?

Do i need to make one?? is it hard to make??? has anybody done something like this???

Should i take these to local shop to have it done? or can i do it myself/.

And lastly, any thoughts on the list of upgrades im planning to do? am i missing anything like wires or something?

Will the car rattle?? should i use dynamat at all??

I will be keep posting once i start the process.

Cheers!!
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      09-17-2013, 04:19 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blcoffee View Post
First and foremost, i would like to thank everyone who posted quality information on the forum.

Special thanks to kaigoss69 who pretty much gave me the awesome ideas and support.



So, i have 2008, e93 335i with Logic 7 sound system. and with PDC

I kind of like the system as it is, but i definitely feel that it needs some work.

So, i decided to spend around $1000 to upgrade the system.

The following is the list of upgrades i am planning to do, equipments, wires and etc.



MS-8

OEM center tweeter

12"sub [JBL GTI MKII ]

5channel amp [ XR-5S ]

Technic harness for L7. [i have one already, but do i need two? or 1 is all i need?]

power wiring for the amp (amp wiring kit, 8 gauge)

a wiring kit for the MS-8 ( either 8 or 10 gauge)

1 speaker wire [16 or 12 gauge]

2 RCAs

1 wire that connects PDC to MS-8 [i dont know exactly what kind of cable i need]




So my question is,, i am planning to do Infinte baffle [IB] for my 12' sub, and mounting it on the ski pass.

Where can i get a bracket(?) or mounting set ups?

Do i need to make one?? is it hard to make??? has anybody done something like this???

Should i take these to local shop to have it done? or can i do it myself/.

And lastly, any thoughts on the list of upgrades im planning to do? am i missing anything like wires or something?

Will the car rattle?? should i use dynamat at all??

I will be keep posting once i start the process.

Cheers!!
I dont know maybe I am misinformed, but why would you replace logic7 by logic7?
Ms8 is any car non equipped with logic7 yes, but in your case?
Keep in mind the audii signal comes from fibre optic, so there is no way you can connect this to your ms8 wihtout adding a bridge first.

The problem with the oem logic7 amp is the poor power output. 480 watts. And the speakers too.
Yes you can a big sub in the mean. Not really going to make your system sound better. Just gonna provide an insane amount of bass.
Yes you will have to make everything custom for the sub. Proper mdf enclosure, glue, volume according to the manufacturer specs.
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      09-17-2013, 05:36 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fooljam View Post
I dont know maybe I am misinformed, but why would you replace logic7 by logic7?
Ms8 is any car non equipped with logic7 yes, but in your case?
Keep in mind the audii signal comes from fibre optic, so there is no way you can connect this to your ms8 wihtout adding a bridge first.

The problem with the oem logic7 amp is the poor power output. 480 watts. And the speakers too.
Yes you can a big sub in the mean. Not really going to make your system sound better. Just gonna provide an insane amount of bass.
Yes you will have to make everything custom for the sub. Proper mdf enclosure, glue, volume according to the manufacturer specs.
You are misinformed . J/K.

You do have to use the speaker level inputs on the ms8 and keep the logic 7 amp, or you could recode to hifi. Another option is the DA2, but an ms8 + aftermarket amps + a sub can make a big difference in sq especially with an infinite baffle sub.

OP This is a little over your budget, but I would recommend the following

JBL MS8
Technics harness- You only need one.
12" fi ib3 http://store.ficaraudio.com/ib312/
PDX V9 http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_...ne-PDX-V9.html
4 Gauge wiring
OEM center tweeter

Power the rear speakers and center with the MS8.

PDC will still work fine as long as your gain is set properly, the volume of the chimes will stay the same.

As far as making a bracket you could use these 3 spacers stacked on top of each other as long as the armrest opening is smaller than 12 1/2".

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Extender...item2c72549ba4

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ground-Shake...item4ac9587ed5


I wouldn't worry about dynamat for now.
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      09-17-2013, 06:11 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw325i View Post
You are misinformed . J/K.

You do have to use the speaker level inputs on the ms8 and keep the logic 7 amp, or you could recode to hifi. Another option is the DA2, but an ms8 + aftermarket amps + a sub can make a big difference in sq especially with an infinite baffle sub.

OP This is a little over your budget, but I would recommend the following

JBL MS8
Technics harness- You only need one.
12" fi ib3 http://store.ficaraudio.com/ib312/
PDX V9 http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_...ne-PDX-V9.html
4 Gauge wiring
OEM center tweeter

Power the rear speakers and center with the MS8.

PDC will still work fine as long as your gain is set properly, the volume of the chimes will stay the same.

As far as making a bracket you could use these 3 spacers stacked on top of each other as long as the armrest opening is smaller than 12 1/2".

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Extender...item2c72549ba4

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ground-Shake...item4ac9587ed5


I wouldn't worry about dynamat for now.
Power the rear speakers and central speaker with ms8. Are you serious?
This thing has not enough power for my cigarette lighter even.
No no no
Ms8 to is crap anyway. Yes sounds good but lame product with little adjustments possible.. But nobody should seriously consider powering speakers with a ms8
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      09-17-2013, 07:32 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fooljam
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw325i View Post
You are misinformed . J/K.

You do have to use the speaker level inputs on the ms8 and keep the logic 7 amp, or you could recode to hifi. Another option is the DA2, but an ms8 + aftermarket amps + a sub can make a big difference in sq especially with an infinite baffle sub.

OP This is a little over your budget, but I would recommend the following

JBL MS8
Technics harness- You only need one.
12" fi ib3 http://store.ficaraudio.com/ib312/
PDX V9 http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_...ne-PDX-V9.html
4 Gauge wiring
OEM center tweeter

Power the rear speakers and center with the MS8.

PDC will still work fine as long as your gain is set properly, the volume of the chimes will stay the same.

As far as making a bracket you could use these 3 spacers stacked on top of each other as long as the armrest opening is smaller than 12 1/2".

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Extender...item2c72549ba4

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ground-Shake...item4ac9587ed5


I wouldn't worry about dynamat for now.
Power the rear speakers and central speaker with ms8. Are you serious?
This thing has not enough power for my cigarette lighter even.
No no no
Ms8 to is crap anyway. Yes sounds good but lame product with little adjustments possible.. But nobody should seriously consider powering speakers with a ms8
You have no idea what you're talking about, do you? I'd suggest you start doing some reading and getting informed, before you offer any further "advice" here or anywhere else.
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      09-17-2013, 07:37 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaigoss69 View Post
You have no idea what you're talking about, do you? I'd suggest you start doing some reading and getting informed, before you offer any further "advice" here or anywhere else.
Oh oh dont I lol?
You are powering speakers with ms8?
Here in europe we buy ms8 for 250 quids for a good reason..
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      09-17-2013, 08:21 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fooljam View Post
Oh oh dont I lol?
You are powering speakers with ms8?
Here in europe we buy ms8 for 250 quids for a good reason..
Ummm, fooljam - kaigoss is a respected member around here who knows his way around audio (and no, I don't know him personally). He knows what he's talking about
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      09-17-2013, 08:23 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fooljam
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw325i View Post
You are misinformed . J/K.

You do have to use the speaker level inputs on the ms8 and keep the logic 7 amp, or you could recode to hifi. Another option is the DA2, but an ms8 + aftermarket amps + a sub can make a big difference in sq especially with an infinite baffle sub.

OP This is a little over your budget, but I would recommend the following

JBL MS8
Technics harness- You only need one.
12" fi ib3 http://store.ficaraudio.com/ib312/
PDX V9 http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_...ne-PDX-V9.html
4 Gauge wiring
OEM center tweeter

Power the rear speakers and center with the MS8.

PDC will still work fine as long as your gain is set properly, the volume of the chimes will stay the same.

As far as making a bracket you could use these 3 spacers stacked on top of each other as long as the armrest opening is smaller than 12 1/2".

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Extender...item2c72549ba4

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ground-Shake...item4ac9587ed5


I wouldn't worry about dynamat for now.
Power the rear speakers and central speaker with ms8. Are you serious?
This thing has not enough power for my cigarette lighter even.
No no no
Ms8 to is crap anyway. Yes sounds good but lame product with little adjustments possible.. But nobody should seriously consider powering speakers with a ms8
Really? MS-8 WON the IASCA competition on internal power (and a sub amp) alone.
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      09-17-2013, 09:10 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yatzee View Post
Ummm, fooljam - kaigoss is a respected member around here who knows his way around audio (and no, I don't know him personally). He knows what he's talking about
Well unlike him, I did not insult him. Not so much respectable attitude here. I am trying to help with real life experience. I install premium sound systems in BmW regularly. Jl Audio xd600 is not a premium system, the ms8 is a badly designed product, period. Dispite the numerous threads about it.
How on earth can you be happy with what, 18 watts going to your speaker? A customer asked me to power his rear speakers and central speaker with a ms8. A week later he asked me to install a new amp. For good reasons. No one in their right mind will consider such a low power to properly drive speakers in a recent bmw. Customer was warned. He wanted to save money.
18watts. Not even on a push bike.

Hold on I am getting an incoming call in my car, let me grab that ms8 remote control at 70 miles per hour so I can disable the processing otherwise there will be echos. Sorry but lol.
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      09-17-2013, 10:14 AM   #10
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I do not recommend powering a center speaker alone with the ms-8. Reason being, that the added power to the fronts creates a severe level mismatch. I also do not recommend powering aftermarket speakers with the ms-8, since there is not enough power to overcome the inefficiencies of the drivers and crossover networks. What I do recommend, based on personal experience, is to power the L7 OEM speakers with the ms-8, especially when money is a concern. And no, it's not 18W, it's 30W since the L7 OEM speakers are 2 ohm. Plus, they are very efficient. So what you will have north of 150Hz is 30W x 3 in the front, plus 30W x 2 in the rear. Granted, the rears do not contribute much to the volume level of the front stage, when in L7 mode, but they do help. So you will have an easy 100W in the front stage, with very efficient speakers. The result is the ability to get to near ear-piercing volume levels, without any audible distortion.

Yes, the MS-8 has it's flaws and drawbacks. However, for around $350 to $400 you cannot get any better sound with any other solution, not by a long-shot!
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      09-17-2013, 12:59 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaigoss69 View Post
I do not recommend powering a center speaker alone with the ms-8. Reason being, that the added power to the fronts creates a severe level mismatch. I also do not recommend powering aftermarket speakers with the ms-8, since there is not enough power to overcome the inefficiencies of the drivers and crossover networks. What I do recommend, based on personal experience, is to power the L7 OEM speakers with the ms-8, especially when money is a concern. And no, it's not 18W, it's 30W since the L7 OEM speakers are 2 ohm. Plus, they are very efficient. So what you will have north of 150Hz is 30W x 3 in the front, plus 30W x 2 in the rear. Granted, the rears do not contribute much to the volume level of the front stage, when in L7 mode, but they do help. So you will have an easy 100W in the front stage, with very efficient speakers. The result is the ability to get to near ear-piercing volume levels, without any audible distortion.

Yes, the MS-8 has it's flaws and drawbacks. However, for around $350 to $400 you cannot get any better sound with any other solution, not by a long-shot!
Yeah so we agree on most of the points lol
Still a waste of money if you ask me. If you cant do it right don't do it in the first place. Just save up a bit longer and don't bother with the hassle and get something better for few extra bucks.
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      09-17-2013, 02:00 PM   #12
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MS-8 as an upgrade...to L7 from L7--huh?? That's a joke, right? Nothing from jbl or jl audio is premium. Mobridge DA2 to a Helix or Mosconi DSP to quality amps for a quality 2 channel front sound stage, no rears, and certainly no center channel, with an IB sub (yes that needs a custom mount, I have done so in my e93) is a premium upgrade. In my opinion, unless you do it the right way, you're just wasting your money and will want to change it after you spend you grand. Rattles? No, not with our electric trunk latch motor. That pretty much prevents any rattles.
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      09-17-2013, 02:03 PM   #13
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My sub is mounted to a baffle that is simply pressure fit by the back seat. Not sure if you can do that with ski pass. Mine had the storage pocket that I cut out.
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      09-17-2013, 04:00 PM   #14
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Nobody is asking for premium here, but I'm sure I could argue that JBL and JL Audio do make premium products. OP wants to spend no more than $1000 on everything. And as far as replacing L7 with L7 not being a worthwhile upgrade....have you ever heard a properly set-up MS-8 install? Can you do better for $1000?

I have made the observation before that 12V installers don't like the ms-8 because it creates too many headaches for them (which I totally understand). However, it is also becoming clear that the unit is unpopular in those circles because the customer doesn't necessarily have to buy a $500 amp and $1000 speakers to get a decent sounding system. MS-8 is bad for business.
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      09-17-2013, 04:14 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaigoss69 View Post
Nobody is asking for premium here, but I'm sure I could argue that JBL and JL Audio do make premium products. OP wants to spend no more than $1000 on everything. And as far as replacing L7 with L7 not being a worthwhile upgrade....have you ever heard a properly set-up MS-8 install? Can you do better for $1000?

I have made the observation before that 12V installers don't like the ms-8 because it creates too many headaches for them (which I totally understand). However, it is also becoming clear that the unit is unpopular in those circles because the customer doesn't necessarily have to buy a $500 amp and $1000 speakers to get a decent sounding system. MS-8 is bad for business.
Sounds weird to me upgrading logic7 with logic7 but if you say it was done and works well I believe you. None of my bmw customers had logic7 in the first place, so I cant comment on that.
I dont think ms8 is bad for business because customers i work for only have 6 speakers and no amp from factory. Obviously in the US it is a different story. I just think the product is buggy (craps itself out after 2-3 times use when you need to adjust different settings, so you need to do a factory reset), is a pain because it does not take rca inputs, is too big for what it is etc...but yes it sounds good but far from a good product and many settings are not accessible. They are hardcoded or set automatically with some user inputs. Personally I find a mosconi dsp much easier and quicker to set up

The xd range from jl audio is alright. I had a jl 600/6 for a while but when you compare to other higher class AB you really realise how much details you are missing. It will please most people who never got the chance to compare audio systems with the same tunes running.
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      09-17-2013, 06:00 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fooljam View Post
Sounds weird to me upgrading logic7 with logic7 but if you say it was done and works well I believe you. None of my bmw customers had logic7 in the first place, so I cant comment on that.
I dont think ms8 is bad for business because customers i work for only have 6 speakers and no amp from factory. Obviously in the US it is a different story. I just think the product is buggy (craps itself out after 2-3 times use when you need to adjust different settings, so you need to do a factory reset), is a pain because it does not take rca inputs, is too big for what it is etc...but yes it sounds good but far from a good product and many settings are not accessible. They are hardcoded or set automatically with some user inputs. Personally I find a mosconi dsp much easier and quicker to set up

The xd range from jl audio is alright. I had a jl 600/6 for a while but when you compare to other higher class AB you really realise how much details you are missing. It will please most people who never got the chance to compare audio systems with the same tunes running.
Of course there is better equipment out there. The thing with car audio is you can always spend more money on something. It just depends on the budget.
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      09-17-2013, 07:31 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fooljam View Post
Sounds weird to me upgrading logic7 with logic7 but if you say it was done and works well I believe you. None of my bmw customers had logic7 in the first place, so I cant comment on that.
I dont think ms8 is bad for business because customers i work for only have 6 speakers and no amp from factory. Obviously in the US it is a different story. I just think the product is buggy (craps itself out after 2-3 times use when you need to adjust different settings, so you need to do a factory reset), is a pain because it does not take rca inputs, is too big for what it is etc...but yes it sounds good but far from a good product and many settings are not accessible. They are hardcoded or set automatically with some user inputs. Personally I find a mosconi dsp much easier and quicker to set up

The xd range from jl audio is alright. I had a jl 600/6 for a while but when you compare to other higher class AB you really realise how much details you are missing. It will please most people who never got the chance to compare audio systems with the same tunes running.
When you start from base audio, the upgrade path is more complicated and integration of the ms-8 may not be the best solution in a lot of cases. However, the Logic 7 speaker configuration is perfect for the MS-8. It is so perfect that JBL chose an e90 to show off their product.

Yes there have been quality issues with the unit. I have experienced that first hand. But JBL exchanged every unit I had issues with for free, and the customer service has been excellent. The unit I have now has been working flawlessly for over 3 years. And yes, the ms-8 has RCA inputs, eight of them.
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      09-18-2013, 12:00 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaigoss69 View Post
And yes, the ms-8 has RCA inputs, eight of them.
Sure but not high level inputs as you know, I use 3rd party radio loom extensions with RCA plugs, so I had to extend the RCA plugs with lose wires...
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      09-18-2013, 12:15 PM   #19
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Sure but not high level inputs as you know, I use 3rd party radio loom extensions with RCA plugs, so I had to extend the RCA plugs with lose wires...
What are you talking about, there are also 8 separate speaker-level inputs. Those are the ones you use when hooking the unit to the L7 amp for example.
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      09-18-2013, 03:42 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaigoss69 View Post
What are you talking about, there are also 8 separate speaker-level inputs. Those are the ones you use when hooking the unit to the L7 amp for example.
Like I said, I connected the OEM HU directly using an extension using those high level input white/grey wires. So no problem here a part from the fact i had to convert the RCA plugs (My custom loom only comes with RCA inputs), to a pair of - / + wires

The MS8 does not support high level input on its RCA input plugs
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      09-19-2013, 03:28 PM   #21
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Fooljam, you might want to work on your poor social skills.

The MS-8 has issues. Technic didn't take his out of his car for just no reason at all (ask him).

I love Andy W and I love a lot of what the MS-8 is supposed to do. We stopped using it after a high failure rate, and it does not give an expert enough flexibility to fix problems.

Folljam, don't be an asshole. It makes people think that all of us pros are assholes, and some of us are not. You want to show off your skills, help people, dude.
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      09-19-2013, 04:31 PM   #22
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Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Dublin, Ireland

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Quote:
Originally Posted by VP Electricity View Post
Fooljam, you might want to work on your poor social skills.

The MS-8 has issues. Technic didn't take his out of his car for just no reason at all (ask him).

I love Andy W and I love a lot of what the MS-8 is supposed to do. We stopped using it after a high failure rate, and it does not give an expert enough flexibility to fix problems.

Folljam, don't be an asshole. It makes people think that all of us pros are assholes, and some of us are not. You want to show off your skills, help people, dude.
I am an asshole? I don't recall insulting anyone or having a go at anyone, I gave my opinion on a product based on experience and you call me an asshole?
I had some kind of admiration for your work, now I really think you are a pretty thick guy for calling another member who gave only his constructive opinion on a product an asshole?
You guys need to chill out period.
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