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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Ceramic Coated Turbos



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      10-25-2013, 07:50 AM   #1
GreekMaverick
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Ceramic Coated Turbos

Quiet alot of talk lately about coating the turbos with a layer of ceramic layer, popular dynamics had a nice article on the topic based on the Audi RS7 Turbos that are Ceramic coated, any benefits for Rob/Vargas/FFTEC from this? possible future option? gains to be expected?

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"the portion of the turbo's aluminum housing that meets the compressor wheel, and has been coated with a layer of ceramic.
That seemingly innocuous ceramic bit reduces the clearance between the housing and the compressor wheel, helping yield more boost as internal rpms approach their absolute maximum."

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars...udi-rs7-engine
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      10-25-2013, 08:15 AM   #2
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Its odd that they reference clearance as the only advantage to adding ceramic. If that's the case, just give the aluminum less clearing (unless they're worried about expansion of the metal with extreme temperatures).
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      10-25-2013, 04:14 PM   #3
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Tightening the clearance between the housing and compressor improves performance and efficiency, but the clearance is needed to keep the compressor from hitting the housing if the turbo vibrates or wobbles at high speeds. Tighter clearances means a greater chance the wheels will touch down and ruin the turbo. Ball bearing turbos can have tighter clearances since the bearings have tighter control on the wheels, and ceramic ball bearings are less affected by heat, so they can be slightly tighter still. That's why I like PTE turbos, they use ceramic ball bearings.

If someone wanted to try this, I'd recommend simply painting the inside of the housing with several thin coats of flat black high temp engine paint. If the wheels touch down the paint will simply scrape off more readily than a hard ceramic coating.
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      10-25-2013, 05:18 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave W. View Post
Tightening the clearance between the housing and compressor improves performance and efficiency, but the clearance is needed to keep the compressor from hitting the housing if the turbo vibrates or wobbles at high speeds. Tighter clearances means a greater chance the wheels will touch down and ruin the turbo. Ball bearing turbos can have tighter clearances since the bearings have tighter control on the wheels, and ceramic ball bearings are less affected by heat, so they can be slightly tighter still. That's why I like PTE turbos, they use ceramic ball bearings.

If someone wanted to try this, I'd recommend simply painting the inside of the housing with several thin coats of flat black high temp engine paint. If the wheels touch down the paint will simply scrape off more readily than a hard ceramic coating.
+1 well said, decreasing your tolerance on a JB turbo is a good way to induce wheel to housing contact. Another reason on why BB turbos can decrease the wheel to housing clearance is they get rid of the traditional thrust system which also needs clearance to function correctly.
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      10-25-2013, 05:45 PM   #5
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      10-25-2013, 05:59 PM   #6
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http://www.freshpatents.com/Ceramic-...0060285972.php

That should clear it up for you. Ceramics aren't just for heat rejection. We use coatings similar to the one in the link on LOTS of things at work.

Edit...you should really know this sort of stuff if you're going to be "upgrading" and selling turbos Tony. Just food for thought.
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      10-25-2013, 06:04 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave W. View Post
Tightening the clearance between the housing and compressor improves performance and efficiency, but the clearance is needed to keep the compressor from hitting the housing if the turbo vibrates or wobbles at high speeds. Tighter clearances means a greater chance the wheels will touch down and ruin the turbo. Ball bearing turbos can have tighter clearances since the bearings have tighter control on the wheels, and ceramic ball bearings are less affected by heat, so they can be slightly tighter still. That's why I like PTE turbos, they use ceramic ball bearings.

If someone wanted to try this, I'd recommend simply painting the inside of the housing with several thin coats of flat black high temp engine paint. If the wheels touch down the paint will simply scrape off more readily than a hard ceramic coating.
That is terrible advice that would yield no gain whatsoever and would most likely cause damage. Please see the link I posted to see why abradable ceramics are used for clearances in hot environments for keeping tight tolerances.
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      10-25-2013, 06:51 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pwr hungry View Post
http://www.freshpatents.com/Ceramic-...0060285972.php

That should clear it up for you. Ceramics aren't just for heat rejection. We use coatings similar to the one in the link on LOTS of things at work.

Edit...you should really know this sort of stuff if you're going to be "upgrading" and selling turbos Tony. Just food for thought.
Hmmmm. Slightly confused by this post, no where did I say I thought ceramics were only for heat rejection, nor would I suggest such a thing, as the uses of ceramics are many and heat rejection being only one of them. My post stated and quite correctly, reducing wheel to housing tolerance in JB turbos, using ceramics, leaving a closer tolerance while machining, you name it, are all good ways to induce wheel to housing contact as JB turbos have a pre determined amount of tolerance built into them due to the free float design of the bearing. Once you get any sort of turbo wear this tolerance only increases, thus increasing the chance for contact if tighter tolerances are introduced. Pretty basic turbocharger theory really.

Edit... You really should read a post more carefully before letting everyone know how smart you are, yet couldn't quite grasp what I was getting at. Food for thought.

Ps, I read your link and since we service many types of turbines here not just automotive, we know of this technology. It is not feasible for turbos in the price range you play in, nor would it do anything to increase power on these engines, we have PLENTY of air flow, we do not have enough exhaust flow, again very simple turbo theory that has been discussed at length, yet you cant understand it. Happy Friday
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      10-25-2013, 10:36 PM   #9
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      10-25-2013, 11:47 PM   #10
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Quote:
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^^I'm gonna go ahead and say pwrhungry has been pwr pwned.
Right, because Tony is so smart. The guy says that ceramic coating the turbos isn't feasible for turbos in our price range and yields no benefits...i guess that's why Audi is doing it, right?
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      10-26-2013, 01:07 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pwr hungry
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bakeme521 View Post
^^I'm gonna go ahead and say pwrhungry has been pwr pwned.
Right, because Tony is so smart. The guy says that ceramic coating the turbos isn't feasible for turbos in our price range and yields no benefits...i guess that's why Audi is doing it, right?
Is that really what you took away from Tonys post? ... Did you even read it?
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      10-26-2013, 01:57 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pwr hungry View Post
Right, because Tony is so smart. The guy says that ceramic coating the turbos isn't feasible for turbos in our price range and yields no benefits...i guess that's why Audi is doing it, right?
RS7 really ins't in n54 price range.
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      10-26-2013, 07:37 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pwr hungry View Post
Right, because Tony is so smart. The guy says that ceramic coating the turbos isn't feasible for turbos in our price range and yields no benefits...i guess that's why Audi is doing it, right?
Holy shit dude, first the M3 turbo thread, now this?
Go pull this kinda talk at you local civic forum why don't you?
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      10-26-2013, 10:04 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deathbunny View Post
RS7 really ins't in n54 price range.
We're not talking about the entire car, just a ceramic coating applied to maybe a total of 8 square inches of compressor housing between the two turbos. If you wanted to have this done, it wouldn't be that pricey...there are some of us who shelled out thousands for the ST kits or the VTTS3s. But, as Tony DID point out, it's not going to make a hell of a big difference. In most jet engine applications you'll see approximately 1% increase in efficiency, which is huge for us(aero *******, but would translate to very little for us(car guys).

Edit: why is aero space (aero******* when spelled correctly as one word blocked out?
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      10-26-2013, 11:30 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pwr hungry View Post
We're not talking about the entire car, just a ceramic coating applied to maybe a total of 8 square inches of compressor housing between the two turbos. If you wanted to have this done, it wouldn't be that pricey...there are some of us who shelled out thousands for the ST kits or the VTTS3s. But, as Tony DID point out, it's not going to make a hell of a big difference. In most jet engine applications you'll see approximately 1% increase in efficiency, which is huge for us(aero *******, but would translate to very little for us(car guys).

Edit: why is aero space (aero******* when spelled correctly as one word blocked out?
You brought up a very good point. As a commercial pilot I have been following recent
Technologies in the aero space industry my self in CMC's / LEAP Powerplants. Here is a good article:

http://www.gereports.com/next-gen-ceramics/

Last edited by GreekMaverick; 10-26-2013 at 11:40 AM.
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      10-26-2013, 11:40 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreekMaverick View Post
You brought up a very good point. As a commercial pilot I have been following recent
Technologies in the aero space industry my self. Here is a good article:

http://www.gereports.com/next-gen-ceramics/
Funny you should mention those particular ceramics. I work with them everyday. Unfortunately, they would be useless in current automotive engine applications, based on what they were designed to handle, and the cost of even just the unprocessed material. It is a mind boggling amount of tech that goes into producing each component made from the material though. Btw, I love my job haha
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      10-26-2013, 11:48 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pwr hungry View Post
Funny you should mention those particular ceramics. I work with them everyday. Unfortunately, they would be useless in current automotive engine applications, based on what they were designed to handle, and the cost of even just the unprocessed material. It is a mind boggling amount of tech that goes into producing each component made from the material though. Btw, I love my job haha
Really? Well, Thx for keeping me up high
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      10-26-2013, 12:13 PM   #18
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Really? Well, Thx for keeping me up high
It's what we do haha
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