E90Post
 


TireRack
 
BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Are these good crank HP estimate of Cobb Stage 1 and 2+ Aggressive?



Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      11-12-2013, 12:18 PM   #1
Glowin
Captain
 
Glowin's Avatar
 
Drives: 335i
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Seattle

Posts: 880
iTrader: (0)

Are these good crank HP estimate of Cobb Stage 1 and 2+ Aggressive?

I'm Stage 2+ in my RWD 335, which I track a few days a year (so getting a FMIC was a necessity), but our family car luckily has also got an N54 engine (535 wagon), which is just Stage 1 right now, and it got me thinking if it would be worth it upgrading it to 2+ also...

To keep it apples to apples, and the fact that the 335 is RWD whereas the 535 is AWD, I wanted to get approximate crank HP numbers, rather than at the wheels.

Here is my thinking: I think I've read that stage 1 Aggressive in the 335 will give you about a 75 HP bump to 375, and stage 2+ would be about 425. Is that about right?

To go from stage 1 to 2+, I'd be into it about $2k for the DP's and FMIC and install, so if the numbers above are right, I guess I have to ask myself if it's worth it spending $2k for a 50 CHP gain...

Thoughts and comments and corrections welcome.

Last edited by Glowin; 11-12-2013 at 02:55 PM.
Glowin is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      11-12-2013, 12:22 PM   #2
135Pats
Saving for a big ass turbo or an A3...IDK which.
 
135Pats's Avatar
 
Drives: 135i
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Maryland

Posts: 5,262
iTrader: (1)

Yea assuming drivetrain loss of something like 13-15%; that gets you in the 360 or so WHP area. For a FBO pump gas car, that sounds about right to me on your “average” dynojet.

But as you know first-hand, the gains aren’t just in terms of max power delta. There is a modest gain in area under the curve, and there are obvious hardware benefits (cooler IATs, cooler EGTs, etc etc). So it’s not just “is X dollars worth X BHP”
__________________
E88 FBO N54 Alpinweiss/Coral Red/Meisterschaft Race/Berk Resonated/Macht Schnell 3"/ER CP/Synapse/VRSF FMIC/FFTEC LPFP/HFS-4 DO Stainless Lines/BMS DCI/BMS Thermostat Delete/Rob Beck PCV Valve + Cap/BMS OCC/PTF E50/ST Coilovers/M3 Front Control Arms + Tension Rods/M3 Subframe Bushings/M3 FSB/DINAN Camber Plates/Apex ARC-8/Project Kics/Macht Schnell Studs/VAC Hubs/Rogue Transmission Mounts/Alpina TCU Flash/Icarbon/Kerscher/BMW Performance
135Pats is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      11-12-2013, 12:27 PM   #3
idrift4wd
Brigadier General
 
Drives: Three Hundred and Thirty Five
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Yonkers NY

Posts: 3,304
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2007 BMW  [3.50]
2000 for dp and fmic? are they made out of gold?

Dp should run 300-500 unless you go AR. FMIC are under 500 also. installation shouldnt be 1000. id expect 100-250 at most.

id expect a little over 400 crank Hp on pump on stage 2+ Aggressive. Id say 440-50 crank with a e30 mix. My guesstimate.
__________________
12.3 @ 116 JB4-DCI-E85
idrift4wd is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-12-2013, 12:28 PM   #4
marc@x-ph.com
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor

 
Drives: 2010 e92 335i
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: USA

Posts: 680
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glowin View Post
I'm Stage 2+ in my RWD 335, which I track a few days a year (so getting a FMIC was a necessity), but our family car luckily has also got an N54 engine (535 wagon), which is just Stage 1 right now, and it got me thinking if it would be worth it upgrading it to 2+ also...

To keep it apples to apples, and the fact that the 335 is RWD whereas the 535 is AWD, I wanted to get approximate crank HP numbers, rather than at the wheels.

Here is my thinking: I think I've read that stage 1 Aggressive in the 335 will give you about a 75 HP bump to 375, and stage 2+ would be about 425. Is that about right?

To go from stage 1 to 2+, I'd be into it about $2k for the DP's and FMIC and install, so if the numbers above are right, I guess I have to ask myself if it's worth it spending $2k for a 50 CHP gain...

Thoughts and comments and corrections welcome.

Hit me up and i'll give you a great deal on parts. Much lower than you estimated.
marc@x-ph.com is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-12-2013, 12:37 PM   #5
135Pats
Saving for a big ass turbo or an A3...IDK which.
 
135Pats's Avatar
 
Drives: 135i
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Maryland

Posts: 5,262
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by idrift4wd View Post
2000 for dp and fmic? are they made out of gold?

Dp should run 300-500 unless you go AR. FMIC are under 500 also. installation shouldnt be 1000. id expect 100-250 at most.

id expect a little over 400 crank Hp on pump on stage 2+ Aggressive. Id say 440-50 crank with a e30 mix. My guesstimate.
Maybe he wants Akrapovic downpipes? They’re like $1.6K, something loony like that
__________________
E88 FBO N54 Alpinweiss/Coral Red/Meisterschaft Race/Berk Resonated/Macht Schnell 3"/ER CP/Synapse/VRSF FMIC/FFTEC LPFP/HFS-4 DO Stainless Lines/BMS DCI/BMS Thermostat Delete/Rob Beck PCV Valve + Cap/BMS OCC/PTF E50/ST Coilovers/M3 Front Control Arms + Tension Rods/M3 Subframe Bushings/M3 FSB/DINAN Camber Plates/Apex ARC-8/Project Kics/Macht Schnell Studs/VAC Hubs/Rogue Transmission Mounts/Alpina TCU Flash/Icarbon/Kerscher/BMW Performance
135Pats is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      11-12-2013, 12:59 PM   #6
marc@x-ph.com
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor

 
Drives: 2010 e92 335i
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: USA

Posts: 680
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 135Pats View Post
Maybe he wants Akrapovic downpipes? They’re like $1.6K, something loony like that
Can;t help him there lol
marc@x-ph.com is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-12-2013, 02:59 PM   #7
Glowin
Captain
 
Glowin's Avatar
 
Drives: 335i
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Seattle

Posts: 880
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 135Pats View Post
Yea assuming drivetrain loss of something like 13-15%; that gets you in the 360 or so WHP area. For a FBO pump gas car, that sounds about right to me on your “average” dynojet.

But as you know first-hand, the gains aren’t just in terms of max power delta. There is a modest gain in area under the curve, and there are obvious hardware benefits (cooler IATs, cooler EGTs, etc etc). So it’s not just “is X dollars worth X BHP”
Good point that gains aren't just in peak HP, but at least to start with, I know that the numbers I put out are about right for crank peak HP. I already know the biggest power bump bang/buck is the tune, where for like $700, you get the 75 CHP.

Just debating whether it's worth like $2,000 to go stage 2+ or not and how much I'd gain from it. No E gas here unfortunately, so no potential for that, and won't ever run race gas in that car.

Last edited by Glowin; 11-12-2013 at 03:11 PM.
Glowin is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      11-12-2013, 03:10 PM   #8
Glowin
Captain
 
Glowin's Avatar
 
Drives: 335i
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Seattle

Posts: 880
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by idrift4wd View Post
2000 for dp and fmic? are they made out of gold?

Dp should run 300-500 unless you go AR. FMIC are under 500 also. installation shouldnt be 1000. id expect 100-250 at most.
OK, let's do some basic math which you clearly have not done... I am obviously not quoting some Ebay special DP's and FMIC, when I say what it would cost, and am speaking from experience as this is what I bought already.

AR DP's - $800 retail (as low as $650 on a good sale) - let's say $700
AMS intercooler - $700

Install for both DP's and intercooler for "100 to 250 at most"??? What, you have a monkey working at the shop who gets paid $20 to $50 an hour? Or you have magic hands and can do it all in like 2 to 3 hours?

It'll take 4 to 5 hours to do them best case, depending on how many times the shop has done it. AR and AMS's own documentation say to allow for that much time even.

My shop is very good, and charges $100 an hour.

So take $200 off my estimate even if you really want. Still comes to $1800 all in best case.
.
.
And these are 335 numbers too. If you had read my first post, you'd see I'm talking about doing this for the 535, whose stuff costs even more! So I'm in for $2,000 in parts alone, since I think AR is the only one that makes DP's for it at $1,000, and Evolution Racewerks for the FMIC at another $1,000.
.
.

Last edited by Glowin; 11-12-2013 at 03:27 PM.
Glowin is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      11-12-2013, 03:37 PM   #9
deathbunny
First Lieutenant
 
Drives: 08 335I
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Vegas

Posts: 356
iTrader: (2)

There are several venders on here that sell downpipes for under 500 and at least one that I know of that sells ICs for under 500 as well. I do agree that the labor estimates were grossly low for a dp install though. It cost me ~300 to have them put in and my shop only charges 85 an hour and charges actual hours not book hours.
__________________
"And just one question I might ask yah, and it might sound like A disaster, can you make this thing go faster?"
deathbunny is online now  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-12-2013, 05:14 PM   #10
Jeff@TopGearSolutions
BimmerPost Supporting Vendor

 
Jeff@TopGearSolutions's Avatar
 
Drives: C6 Z06, GSXR-750, 09 335i
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: TopGearSolutions.com

Posts: 16,479
iTrader: (31)

Send a message via AIM to Jeff@TopGearSolutions
Quote:
Originally Posted by deathbunny View Post
There are several venders on here that sell downpipes for under 500 and at least one that I know of that sells ICs for under 500 as well. I do agree that the labor estimates were grossly low for a dp install though. It cost me ~300 to have them put in and my shop only charges 85 an hour and charges actual hours not book hours.
He needs 535i downpipes though. I think only AR sells those. ---> Which means BOAT, Bust out another thousand. ($1022 Retail to be exact).

Edit- Actually BMS sells "dr euro 535i downpipes" for $699 but I never heard of them and don't how they fit. They also have a pretty nasty cut in them.

Last edited by Jeff@TopGearSolutions; 11-12-2013 at 05:21 PM.
Jeff@TopGearSolutions is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      11-12-2013, 05:29 PM   #11
Glowin
Captain
 
Glowin's Avatar
 
Drives: 335i
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Seattle

Posts: 880
iTrader: (0)

Thanks for the info Jeff.

When I first posted, I had assumed the 535 stuff was the same cost as the 335 stuff, which now I see isn't the case.

Even on the 335, if you get the cheapest stuff, you're still in for $1000 plus $400 to $500 for labor. People keep quoting the labor on DP's alone, when I'm talking about getting both done.
Glowin is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      11-12-2013, 06:32 PM   #12
deathbunny
First Lieutenant
 
Drives: 08 335I
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Vegas

Posts: 356
iTrader: (2)

Ahh I missed the 5 part FYI FMIC at least on a 335 is only around 100 bucks for install. No idea what it is on a 5 though. GL!
__________________
"And just one question I might ask yah, and it might sound like A disaster, can you make this thing go faster?"
deathbunny is online now  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-12-2013, 07:47 PM   #13
idrift4wd
Brigadier General
 
Drives: Three Hundred and Thirty Five
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Yonkers NY

Posts: 3,304
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2007 BMW  [3.50]
Im not here to argue,

UR also has downpipes for your 5'er(650). Good luck its your money.
__________________
12.3 @ 116 JB4-DCI-E85
idrift4wd is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-12-2013, 08:55 PM   #14
BMWM.D.
Stupid Idiot
 
BMWM.D.'s Avatar
 
Drives: E90 335i & C6 Grand Sport
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Santa Barbara

Posts: 684
iTrader: (1)

It still amazes me how cheap so many members are when modding these cars. It's just something I've never experienced on other platforms. Is it the amount of power that can be gained at a relatively low cost from tuning alone that gives everyone this mentality, or what? Or is it that these cars are now being bought and modded by a demographic with less disposable income? I don't mean this as an insult or knock on anyone in particular -- it's just something I'm intrigued by.

On a side note, installing a set of downpipes on an all-wheel drive 5-Series is a pain in the ass. I don't have All-Data in front of me right now, but I bet book time is ~5 hours just for the cat/downpipe install on that car. And an aftermarket intercooler install for $100? That's a hell of a deal if the work quality is good. Most reputable BMW shops are $100+ an hour. I know I wouldn't install the AMS intercooler I put on my car for anybody @ 1 hour of labor.

With most things in this world, you really do get what you pay for in one way or another. That's my experience with cars, anyway.
__________________
BMWM.D. is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-12-2013, 09:04 PM   #15
BMWM.D.
Stupid Idiot
 
BMWM.D.'s Avatar
 
Drives: E90 335i & C6 Grand Sport
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Santa Barbara

Posts: 684
iTrader: (1)

Now that I got that out of my system, my car made just a little under 400 rwhp (395, I think) running the OTS Stage 2+ Aggressive mapping. This was a rear wheel drive car through the 6AT trans. I did have E30 in the tank (91 octane + 4 gallons of E85) at the time -- and the fuel scalers were altered for it -- but otherwise it was the standard map.

I don't think there's that big of a difference in power loss on the X-drive cars, but I could be wrong. Trying to think of things in crank HP just makes it more confusing, IMO. Keep in mind that BMW's crank HP rating is probably on the conservative side as well.
__________________

Last edited by BMWM.D.; 11-12-2013 at 09:09 PM.
BMWM.D. is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-12-2013, 10:13 PM   #16
AWTT335i
Second Lieutenant
 
Drives: 335
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: United states

Posts: 295
iTrader: (0)

I just want to chime in and say it took me ~10 hours the first time I did 535 downpipes. Total pita. Now I knock it out in about 3. I still swear I'll never do them again time too. I don't think dr euro pipes will fit an XI either, I believe AR offers the only "I" and "XI" models.
AWTT335i is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-12-2013, 10:26 PM   #17
135Pats
Saving for a big ass turbo or an A3...IDK which.
 
135Pats's Avatar
 
Drives: 135i
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Maryland

Posts: 5,262
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWM.D. View Post
It still amazes me how cheap so many members are when modding these cars. It's just something I've never experienced on other platforms. Is it the amount of power that can be gained at a relatively low cost from tuning alone that gives everyone this mentality, or what? Or is it that these cars are now being bought and modded by a demographic with less disposable income? I don't mean this as an insult or knock on anyone in particular -- it's just something I'm intrigued by.

On a side note, installing a set of downpipes on an all-wheel drive 5-Series is a pain in the ass. I don't have All-Data in front of me right now, but I bet book time is ~5 hours just for the cat/downpipe install on that car. And an aftermarket intercooler install for $100? That's a hell of a deal if the work quality is good. Most reputable BMW shops are $100+ an hour. I know I wouldn't install the AMS intercooler I put on my car for anybody @ 1 hour of labor.

With most things in this world, you really do get what you pay for in one way or another. That's my experience with cars, anyway.
What really concerns me is how cheap some people are with meth and fueling sometimes
__________________
E88 FBO N54 Alpinweiss/Coral Red/Meisterschaft Race/Berk Resonated/Macht Schnell 3"/ER CP/Synapse/VRSF FMIC/FFTEC LPFP/HFS-4 DO Stainless Lines/BMS DCI/BMS Thermostat Delete/Rob Beck PCV Valve + Cap/BMS OCC/PTF E50/ST Coilovers/M3 Front Control Arms + Tension Rods/M3 Subframe Bushings/M3 FSB/DINAN Camber Plates/Apex ARC-8/Project Kics/Macht Schnell Studs/VAC Hubs/Rogue Transmission Mounts/Alpina TCU Flash/Icarbon/Kerscher/BMW Performance
135Pats is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      11-12-2013, 11:27 PM   #18
Glowin
Captain
 
Glowin's Avatar
 
Drives: 335i
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Seattle

Posts: 880
iTrader: (0)

Given what I'm reading about the DP's, looks like I'm going to pass on them.

Now I have to see what sort of power gains there are going from stage 1 aggressive to stage 1+ aggressive, with a FMIC. Any ideas? I'm sure it's in the forums, but not in an easy to spot place. Most Cobb dynos I've seen compare 2+ to 1 and stock.
Glowin is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      11-13-2013, 02:57 AM   #19
Glowin
Captain
 
Glowin's Avatar
 
Drives: 335i
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Seattle

Posts: 880
iTrader: (0)

PS When doing the math (correct me if I'm wrong), it's hard to justify getting it though... A nice Cobb tune runs about $750, for which you'll get around 75 HP increase (not at the wheels...)

Whereas with a FMIC, I'll be into it $1500 all in probably, and I might get 25 to 30 more HP, though I'm sure the power curve will also be better (I know it's not just the peak number that counts). Since I don't plan on tracking the car, or ever adding meth to it, I wonder if it's worth doing it...

So I'm thinking I might be better off spending that money elsewhere to get more enjoyment out of the car, like on swaybars, and other things.

Convince me why I should get a FMIC!
Glowin is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      11-13-2013, 11:05 AM   #20
BMWM.D.
Stupid Idiot
 
BMWM.D.'s Avatar
 
Drives: E90 335i & C6 Grand Sport
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Santa Barbara

Posts: 684
iTrader: (1)

Personally, I'd do the intercooler upgrade in a heartbeat. Obviously, it doesn't give you the hp gains / $$$ that tuning does, but nothing is going to match that. That was kind of my point above.

When I was still running OTS 91 octane maps, switching from stage 1 to stage 1+ made quite the difference. Sorry, I don't have any dynos for that mapping to give you any actual numbers. If you look at the OTS Cobb maps in ATR, you'll see some nice load increases (at least in the midrange) with the + maps.

Besides the extra power from the tuning, you'll get more consistency on the street. Intercoolers are win/win if you ask me. Downpipes have some trade-offs IMO, but I don't think you have anything to lose with a FMIC upgrade.
__________________
BMWM.D. is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      11-13-2013, 12:43 PM   #21
hybridel
Private First Class
 
hybridel's Avatar
 
Drives: 335xi Coupe
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Calgary

Posts: 133
iTrader: (0)

a little off topic... but what trade offs are there with downpipes?
hybridel is offline   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      11-13-2013, 12:49 PM   #22
135Pats
Saving for a big ass turbo or an A3...IDK which.
 
135Pats's Avatar
 
Drives: 135i
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Maryland

Posts: 5,262
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by hybridel View Post
a little off topic... but what trade offs are there with downpipes?
Pros:

Lower backpressure, can evacuate gas more efficiently
Lower EGT, less heat on the turbos
Sound

Cons:

Illegal
Smell
Smoke
__________________
E88 FBO N54 Alpinweiss/Coral Red/Meisterschaft Race/Berk Resonated/Macht Schnell 3"/ER CP/Synapse/VRSF FMIC/FFTEC LPFP/HFS-4 DO Stainless Lines/BMS DCI/BMS Thermostat Delete/Rob Beck PCV Valve + Cap/BMS OCC/PTF E50/ST Coilovers/M3 Front Control Arms + Tension Rods/M3 Subframe Bushings/M3 FSB/DINAN Camber Plates/Apex ARC-8/Project Kics/Macht Schnell Studs/VAC Hubs/Rogue Transmission Mounts/Alpina TCU Flash/Icarbon/Kerscher/BMW Performance
135Pats is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:59 AM.




e90post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST