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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Fuel Tables: Fuel Scalar (Bank 1 & 2)



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      12-03-2013, 10:56 PM   #1
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Fuel Tables: Fuel Scalar (Bank 1 & 2)

Back on 11/21, Josh@COBB announced the release of some new tables. One was the Fuel Scalar table which looked to be a Load/RPM scaling table. The table preceded the hex value for the current table value we use for setting fuel scalar for banks 1 & 2. This looked to be logical, but in all reality, it doesn't work.

So in my testing, I set the entire table to 1.50 and left the bottom right value 1.00. That value is the value we would normally set higher to allow for additional fueling. After starting my car I notice that it wasn't running well. I hooked up my OFT to look at my trims and just at idle my car was +5 to +8 trims. I hit the throttle and my trims max'd out at 34 and jerked. So I quickly flashed back as this table is not fully understood and I really don't want to waist my time messing with it when it clearly isn't what we thought it was for.

My 2 cents, and take this with a grain of salt, I have to wonder what is going on over at COBB? Have they stopped funding R&D for the N54 and are just posting new tables for people to test without any knowledge of what the tables are for? Anyway, until more information is provided, I for one wont be wasting anymore time with this and just wanted to throw it out their so you don't waste your time also.

Nice job COBB...
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      12-03-2013, 11:21 PM   #2
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To clarify, Cobb did explain sometime ago that orig 3D was only for a couple ROMs and the others it had to be added... which they did along time ago. And I played with it without any negative effects but also didn't confirm that it was true 3D (it did alter at least the global scaling). I understand Cobb does add to the ROM, instead of just defining/translating it.
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      12-03-2013, 11:57 PM   #3
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Honestly I was offering new tables that I thought might be helpful. These tables have been thoroughly tested (by us and Pro Tuners) and have worked without flaw, but you need to set some axis points for the Load and RPM (X&Y). Did you change the axis points?

-Josh


Quote:
Originally Posted by WedgePerformance View Post
Back on 11/21, Josh@COBB announced the release of some new tables. One was the Fuel Scalar table which looked to be a Load/RPM scaling table. The table preceded the hex value for the current table value we use for setting fuel scalar for banks 1 & 2. This looked to be logical, but in all reality, it doesn't work.

So in my testing, I set the entire table to 1.50 and left the bottom right value 1.00. That value is the value we would normally set higher to allow for additional fueling. After starting my car I notice that it wasn't running well. I hooked up my OFT to look at my trims and just at idle my car was +5 to +8 trims. I hit the throttle and my trims max'd out at 34 and jerked. So I quickly flashed back as this table is not fully understood and I really don't want to waist my time messing with it when it clearly isn't what we thought it was for.

My 2 cents, and take this with a grain of salt, I have to wonder what is going on over at COBB? Have they stopped funding R&D for the N54 and are just posting new tables for people to test without any knowledge of what the tables are for? Anyway, until more information is provided, I for one wont be wasting anymore time with this and just wanted to throw it out their so you don't waste your time also.

Nice job COBB...

Last edited by COBB Tuning; 12-04-2013 at 12:07 AM.
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      12-04-2013, 12:05 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by COBB Tuning View Post
Did you change the axis points? These tables have been thoroughly tested and have worked without flaw, but you need to set some axis points for the Load and RPM (X&Y).

-Josh
What table gets multiplied with the fuel scaler? There has to be a injector DC or VE table that gets multiplied by the scaler. I doubt the DME calculates solely off the the AFR table.

On one 3D table tested the axis points as defined by the DME and used in the AFR table was used for the scalar table. 18X17 IIRC with the same hex breakpoints used for fueling load/Rpm
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      12-04-2013, 12:12 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3000GT MR View Post
What table gets multiplied with the fuel scaler? There has to be a injector DC or VE table that gets multiplied by the scaler. I doubt the DME calculates solely off the the AFR table.

On one 3D table tested the axis points as defined by the DME and used in the AFR table was used for the scalar table. 18X17 IIRC with the same hex breakpoints used for fueling load/Rpm
It's used as a multiplier for final fuel volume needed (basically as a target), inside of a pretty complex calculation. In essence, it will skew the stoich point, which will allow you to correct the zero position for fuel trims based on alternate fuels. The axis points will vary based on rom, but most will be unpopulated... meaning you will need to create them. These axis points are not shared with any other table, so you can change them without affecting any other table.

- Josh
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      12-04-2013, 12:19 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by COBB Tuning View Post
It's used as a multiplier for final fuel volume needed (basically as a target), inside of a pretty complex calculation. In essence, it will skew the stoich point, which will allow you to correct the zero position for fuel trims based on alternate fuels. The axis points will vary based on rom, but most will be unpopulated... meaning you will need to create them. These axis points are not shared with any other table, so you can change them without affecting any other table.

- Josh
Roger that. Thank you for clairifing. What does the DME use as a base fueling table? I just have a hard time understanding what the DME uses for startup, a bad O2, and base calculation.
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      12-04-2013, 12:44 AM   #7
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The new fuel scalar table works flawless.

Try to get a more linear fuel trims than this on E60, without using the fuel scalar table.
http://datazap.me/u/bimmer305/r18-fu...-3?1-6-7-19-20
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      12-04-2013, 01:16 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bimmer305 View Post
The new fuel scalar table works flawless.

Try to get a more linear fuel trims than this on E60, without using the fuel scalar table.
Glad its helping you out.

-Josh
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      12-04-2013, 01:20 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3000GT MR View Post
Roger that. Thank you for clairifing. What does the DME use as a base fueling table? I just have a hard time understanding what the DME uses for startup, a bad O2, and base calculation.
The main AFR table is the base for almost everything, but there are tons of compensations and modeled calculations for pretty much any variable. The problem with a lot of the modeling is it can be algorithm based and not table based, meaning its not easy to be changed via tuning. The good news is that the DME uses all of this as protection.

-Josh

Last edited by COBB Tuning; 12-04-2013 at 01:42 AM.
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      12-04-2013, 01:51 AM   #10
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3D fuel scalar has been working great for me over the past few months. :
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      12-04-2013, 01:53 AM   #11
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Josh I thought you stated before that 1M had stock 3d scalar and others were 1D. But just by adding x,y DME will recognize as 3D?

I always thought the manual x, y in tuner pro was just for viewing and didn't actually change the hex... I'll check it tomorrow. If it does change it you'd have to use the same conversion as other tables of course.
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      12-04-2013, 02:41 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshboody View Post
Josh I thought you stated before that 1M had stock 3d scalar and others were 1D. But just by adding x,y DME will recognize as 3D?

I always thought the manual x, y in tuner pro was just for viewing and didn't actually change the hex... I'll check it tomorrow. If it does change it you'd have to use the same conversion as other tables of course.
If you change the axes in ATP/ATR, you definitely change them in the DME. Conversion factors may be the same, but the axis points are rarely shared between tables.

-Josh
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      12-04-2013, 03:12 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by COBB Tuning View Post
Honestly I was offering new tables that I thought might be helpful. These tables have been thoroughly tested (by us and Pro Tuners) and have worked without flaw, but you need to set some axis points for the Load and RPM (X&Y). Did you change the axis points?

-Josh
My apologies Josh. I probably came off a little harsh. It's been a long day!

I have the axis points set for load and RPM and will test this again.
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      12-04-2013, 07:53 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshboody
Josh I thought you stated before that 1M had stock 3d scalar and others were 1D. But just by adding x,y DME will recognize as 3D?

I always thought the manual x, y in tuner pro was just for viewing and didn't actually change the hex... I'll check it tomorrow. If it does change it you'd have to use the same conversion as other tables of course.
1M has a 2D table IIRC.
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      12-04-2013, 11:14 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WedgePerformance View Post
My apologies Josh. I probably came off a little harsh. It's been a long day!

I have the axis points set for load and RPM and will test this again.
No worries. I can't guarantee anything will work with other software as I don't know how you set up the tables, but I can tell you that we've seen no issues with these tables via ATR/ATP.

-Josh
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      12-04-2013, 11:50 AM   #16
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Ok, duh. Here's the raw hex. The x and y are 0, and to change it just use same rpm, load conversions as the other tables (rpm none, load /100).

Wedge, you used manual x, y which doesn't change the hex.
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      12-04-2013, 01:29 PM   #17
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So basically your saying we need to modify the Load and RPM within the hex for the table to allow for the table to function. Correct?

If that is the case, then we need to make the following changes:



Again Load conversion is x/100 and overall conversion for the table is x/32667.



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      12-04-2013, 01:59 PM   #18
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yeah, looks good to me. And in TP (AFAIK) you need a table for each axis if you want the ability to change the hex.
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      12-04-2013, 02:05 PM   #19
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josh,

anything in the works at COBB to fix the 4th gear timing flatline in the 335 6AT's?
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      12-04-2013, 02:34 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Msport335 View Post
josh,

anything in the works at COBB to fix the 4th gear timing flatline in the 335 6AT's?
I haven't found a full solution yet, but the 7 new timing tables were added to ATR/ATP in the hopes that it would help at least some customers with the issue.

-Josh
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      12-04-2013, 04:16 PM   #21
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Josh helped me out a few months ago by adding the 3D fueling tables for my ROM. It has been working perfectly for me. I put down 570 whp with just the Walbro 255 inline and a single M10 meth nozzle (~65-70% used for detonation control).

EDIT: May have actually been using 2 M7 nozzles. I can't remember exactly when I changed it. Regardless, the 3D tables really helped a lot.
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      12-04-2013, 04:39 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleventeen View Post
Josh helped me out a few months ago by adding the 3D fueling tables for my ROM. It has been working perfectly for me. I put down 570 whp with just the Walbro 255 inline and a single M10 meth nozzle (~65-70% used for detonation control).

EDIT: May have actually been using 2 M7 nozzles. I can't remember exactly when I changed it. Regardless, the 3D tables really helped a lot.
6266 on your car, ya? That must be a hoot on the highway.
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