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      12-12-2013, 12:17 PM   #45
KingOfJericho
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Why does me wanting Lexus to offer marginally more power keep coming back to me being a "fanboy"? When I had my Exige, it was 190hp and was a very good/fun little car. When they came out with the 220hp supercharged version the following year, it became a great car. When they upped the power to 240hp the year after that, it became a fantastic car. Do you see where I'm going? You can have it both ways in terms of power and balance.

As for my statement about consistently falling behind - it is, and always has been, a statement based on the history of the brand. Not to sound like a fanboy but I don't think it's a secret that the benchmark entry-level luxury sedan has been the 3er for the last 15 years and the others have been playing catch-up. It's like Samsung vs iPhone. The iPhone does most things very well and other manufacturers see that and try to emulate. Be honest here, how many articles have you seen over the last 15 years that start with something to the effect of "has [insert brand here] finally come up with a 3-series killer?"

You've shown several articles and comparisons from the last two years but my statement had always been based on history. I think they're headed in the right direction and I hope they keep it up. It's hard to deny that BMW has certainly become softer and Lexus has gained a new edge. I like what I see.
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      12-12-2013, 12:18 PM   #46
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In what metrics? Straight line speed? The IS350 F Sport clearly beat the 335i M Sport in the C&D slalom test which shows its the better handling car and composed car in corners, unless you are only considering straight line performance.

Also the GS350 F Sport handed the F10 535i its lunch in Motortrend:
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...#ixzz1rb65mX3O

I've driven the 4GS 350 F sport and indeed it does feel like a driver's car. The steering and balance are top notch - I'll give it that. Totally different from what I had expected from Lexus and I can see why comparos rate the steering feel and driver experience superior to the BMW 5.

My problem though is that it could use like 30 or 40 more HP. The 535 suffers from the same problem, but that's precisely why I wouldn't get a 535i. I'd get a 550 and have all of these factory-sponsored Dinan tuning options available if I wanted more power.

That's my gripe with Lexus. They don't offer that. You can't easily and cheaply add more power if you want. Stock performance is what you get.
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      12-12-2013, 12:21 PM   #47
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And the tragicomedy of Lexus is that they literally have a legendary, bulletproof turbo design from their Supra days and yet they haven't leveraged that at all. They just did away with turbos completely. It boggles the mind.

Edit: Oh wait, Toyota does offer some factory sponsored supercharging options....for their trucks

It's the most asinine thing I've ever seen. They have supercharger options for their trucks which all of 5 people on earth probably care about, and yet they don't offer factory-sponsored, performance enhancing options for their luxury line.
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      12-12-2013, 12:34 PM   #48
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Quote:
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I've driven the 4GS 350 F sport and indeed it does feel like a driver's car. The steering and balance are top notch - I'll give it that. Totally different from what I had expected from Lexus and I can see why comparos rate the steering feel and driver experience superior to the BMW 5.

My problem though is that it could use like 30 or 40 more HP. The 535 suffers from the same problem, but that's precisely why I wouldn't get a 535i. I'd get a 550 and have all of these factory-sponsored Dinan tuning options available if I wanted more power.

That's my gripe with Lexus. They don't offer that. You can't easily and cheaply add more power if you want. Stock performance is what you get.
My buddy at work has a 550 M sport and it's really fast.

Also, don't make the mistake of thinking that Dinan is factory-sponsored. Your warrantee is, in fact, voided when you affix a Dinan tune. Dinan simply matches the original factory warrantee on their own - completely unrelated to BMW.
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      12-12-2013, 12:39 PM   #49
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My buddy at work has a 550 M sport and it's really fast.

Also, don't make the mistake of thinking that Dinan is factory-sponsored. Your warrantee is, in fact, voided when you affix a Dinan tune. Dinan simply matches the original factory warrantee on their own - completely unrelated to BMW.
Oh interesting, I wasn't aware of that. Good to know! I was always under the impression that Dinan was somehow "recognized" by BMW as being their "official" tuning company or something. God damnit I guess their marketing worked against me Had I not known any better and if I was in the position to purchase aftermarket tuning options for a 550, for example, I probably would have gone with Dinan based on that false assumption.
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      12-12-2013, 12:49 PM   #50
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I've driven the 4GS 350 F sport and indeed it does feel like a driver's car. The steering and balance are top notch - I'll give it that. Totally different from what I had expected from Lexus and I can see why comparos rate the steering feel and driver experience superior to the BMW 5.

My problem though is that it could use like 30 or 40 more HP. The 535 suffers from the same problem, but that's precisely why I wouldn't get a 535i. I'd get a 550 and have all of these factory-sponsored Dinan tuning options available if I wanted more power.

That's my gripe with Lexus. They don't offer that. You can't easily and cheaply add more power if you want. Stock performance is what you get.
Okay so your argument is that Lexus doesn't have cars that you can tune out. That's literally 1-2% of BMW or Lexus customer base. Thanks for voicing that out.

The discussion here is whether the claim that "BMW" is still ahead of Lexus in all market segments in performance (straight line/handling) and is Lexus a "never was". Both of those statements are no longer true.
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      12-12-2013, 12:57 PM   #51
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It's hard to deny that BMW has certainly become softer and Lexus has gained a new edge. I like what I see.
That's what it comes down to. Since the release of the F10, and F30, the gap has closed significantly between the two brands. BMW has gotten very soft, Lexus has gotten "edgier".
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      12-12-2013, 12:58 PM   #52
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Okay so your argument is that Lexus doesn't have cars that you can tune out. That's literally 1-2% of BMW or Lexus customer base. Thanks for voicing that out.

The discussion here is whether the claim that "BMW" is still ahead of Lexus in all market segments in performance (straight line/handling) and is Lexus a "never was". Both of those statements are no longer true.
Yeah but it's relevant because the people posting are these forums are by and large part of that 1-2% who care about things like that, your sarcasm notwithstanding.
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      12-12-2013, 06:40 PM   #53
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Instead of going "battle" maybe wait till Lexus reveals Pics and Specs. As said I'm told +480 PS and +500 Nm. No info on weight, but lots of CF (hood, roof, trunk, doors).
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      12-13-2013, 07:52 AM   #54
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Be honest here, how many articles have you seen over the last 15 years that start with something to the effect of "has [insert brand here] finally come up with a [insert "Golf", "3 Series", "S Class" or "911" here] killer?"
Corrected.

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Sure, it might, but that's not what they built. They came out with an underpowered car with pizza-cutter tires.

When I read that I thought more about BMW's supercar the i8.

I don't see pizza-cutter tires here:

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      12-13-2013, 08:06 AM   #55
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Corrected.

I don't see pizza-cutter tires here:

Let's try posting a picture of the car in stock form...




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      12-13-2013, 10:35 AM   #56
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Let's try posting a picture of the car in stock form...
This car was never built with the intent of being kept stock.
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      12-13-2013, 10:52 AM   #57
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This car was never built with the intent of being kept stock.
Just to continue this line of thought, Porsche allows a ton of options, bigger wheels and tires, a limited slip, torque vectoring, PASM, etc that nearly all instrument tested cars are equipped with. If you compared a bog stock BRZ to a bog stock Cayman, the gap would likely be pretty marginal.

Edmunds FR-S with bigger tires and minor suspension mods is pulling over a g now. I still hold that there are some inherent weaknesses in the GT86 suspension design, as shown by the above UAE car with different lower control arms, and as a result of the engine placement, but it's certainly a more capable car than how it's delivered.

Early rumors were that the new (now current) Lexus IS could be based on the GT86 chassis. I'm one that thinks it's unfortunate that this didn't happen.
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      12-13-2013, 11:46 AM   #58
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This car was never built with the intent of being kept stock.
It's really a pointless conversation if you keep moving the goal posts. It comes with narrow little tires from the factory.
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      12-13-2013, 11:53 AM   #59
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It's really a pointless conversation if you keep moving the goal posts. It comes with narrow little tires from the factory.
But that's sort of the point, stock it's a great tool for enjoying a simple, straight forward rear wheel drive car. A stock Cayman isn't nearly as amusing, even if it is more capable. If you're just chasing numbers, you can modify the GT86, but I doubt many folks stick Prius tires on a Cayman. Maybe they should...
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      12-13-2013, 12:10 PM   #60
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This car was never built with the intent of being kept stock.
But it was designed to be able to put 4 stock wheels in the back to take with you to and from the track.
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      12-13-2013, 02:51 PM   #61
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      12-14-2013, 02:28 PM   #62
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I'm happy to see another contender in the sport coupe segment and I'm glad it's coming from Lexus. Having them compete in the sport coupe category will make things very interesting.
I hope Lexus can break out and become a real threat for the Germans.

Having Lexus as a major threat to the top 3 will keep them in check, push them to innovate, increase reliability and offer better more value for the price.
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      12-14-2013, 02:41 PM   #63
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I'm happy to see another contender in the sport coupe segment and I'm glad it's coming from Lexus. Having them compete in the sport coupe category will make things very interesting.
I hope Lexus can break out and become a real threat for the Germans.

Having Lexus as a major threat to the top 3 will keep them in check, push them to innovate, increase reliability and offer better more value for the price.
And this is exactly why I:

1) welcome new competition, regardless of brand history

and

2) harbor no loyalties towards any one car brand

I want car brands to compete. It forces all of them to step up and the consumer ultimately prevails.

The ISF wasn't ever really a threat to the M3 but the RCF might be. Why? Because the 4th generation GSF and 3rd generation IS350 are allegedly being touted (by most magazine comparos - C&D, edmunds, etc.) as better balanced and better handling vehicles with better steering feel compared to their BMW counterparts.

If the RCF is competitive in terms of straight line acceleration to the M4 and it offers superior reliability at a lower cost. Then...well. It'll force future M cars to offer more and that's a good thing.

Personally if you ask me I think this high power luxury sedan segment is pretty much dominated by the CTSV currently. Nothing else really compares to it. The only saving grace for cars like the M4 is that the CTSV is hideous in my opinion, but that's in the eye of the beholder.

From a value:cost standpoint, the CTSV is king.
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      12-14-2013, 10:53 PM   #64
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And this is exactly why I:

1) welcome new competition, regardless of brand history

and

2) harbor no loyalties towards any one car brand

I want car brands to compete. It forces all of them to step up and the consumer ultimately prevails.
...
Agreed competition is always good for the consumer.


I think since Cadillac grew the CTS it's now more of a 5 series fighter,
still the best value in it's class and this CTS has definitely been a hit.

Cadillac/GM hit a home run with their magnetic ride control and they've proven they've figured out the secret to good handling.
Now all we need to see is the ATS V models


Lexus:
Remember, the first IS F was simply a test, their first product from the F Sport Division (or whatever they call it), something to get the ball rolling....then a few years later they came out with the LF-A, so they are definitely serious.

We've read the same reviews about the IS and it seems like they too have figured out the secret to good handling, they just need to update their engine choices for the IS and RC...I'm hoping they put an interesting engine in the IS F and RC F, maybe with a similar exhaust note to the LF-A
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      12-15-2013, 01:13 AM   #65
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lol @ our buddy levi..
Lol @ Levi

FTFY

Fuck Lexus
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      12-15-2013, 07:49 PM   #66
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Lol @ Levi

FTFY

Fuck Lexus

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