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      04-05-2015, 04:06 PM   #1
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Misfires only after repeated WOT pulls at road course

TLDR version:
- engine misfires at non-stock boost level, only after rapid and repeated WOT pulls that occurs at road course
- misfires and limp mode mostly occurs at partial throttle and high rpms, usually when pulling out of a corner that just precede a long straight (multi-gear WOT pull). perhaps due to leaner afr and higher ign advance at partial throttle applications?
- car drives fine on the streets, even at 16-17 psi in map 5
- car drives fine on the track, at stock boost
- what could the be cause, ignition (plug/coil) or injector?


So my trusty old 335i finally decided to give me some troubles after 6 years of trouble free running.

The car is a 08-Nov production car, still on original factory injectors and coils. Spark plugs were replaced last year, 10k miles ago. Car has seem quite a few road course track days at the second half of last year, while running JB4 backend pump flash and map5. Car currently has 42k miles.

So I have had rough cold start idles twice in last 3 weeks. No long crank or anything, just jumping idles which went away after a few seconds or a few jab at the throttle. Thought it was just bad fuel, now that I think of it, it is probably some leaky injectors acting up.

Well, today I went to the first track day of the season. Running map5 and pump backend flash like I have always done since last year. Things went fine in the first few laps, but got some pretty major misfires at high rpms (+4k rpm). Car went to limp mode and jb4 reads the following codes from the iOS app. FYI, the boost was around 16-17 psi.

29CE misfirings cylinder 2
29D0 misfirings cylinder 4
29CC misfirings, several cylinders
29DC cylinder injection switch-off

Turning the boost down to stock level, around 8psi, seems to solve the issue mostly. But theses codes and limp mode would come back if I dial up the boost again... Typical highway pulls at +15 psi were all fine, including my drive to and back from the track today. Misfires, codes, and limp mode only occur after sustained and repeated WOTs at the track.

Anyway, I am a little lost as to whether it is ignition or fuel injector issues. So a pointer or two would be nice, so I don't end up replacing the fuel injector unnecessarily. They seem like a bit of a bitch to install myself.

FYI, I attached some logs. Both map 5 (around 16-17 psi) and map 2 would give me misfires after a 2-3 laps. My 10psi map 6 would last me for half of the session, and throw a limp mode after 7-10 laps... Map 4 (8 psi) seems to be ok though, other than the fact that the car is slow. LPFP was a little low, since I was running a light mix of e85 and 93 (3 gallon to a full tank).

http://www.datazap.me/u/cloud9blue/2...ta=1-3-4-5-6-8
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      04-05-2015, 07:51 PM   #2
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In for some input.

I have the same issue...running a Cobb Pro Tune. Plugs 7k old...swapped out to all new coils and the car would't run. Too many misfires and idled like it was going to stall....swapped back to the old coils and it runs like a champ. Was only getting the misfires when I went WOT...same as you.

Maybe injector issues?
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      04-05-2015, 08:08 PM   #3
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bummer about the issues. Can you pls upload the logs in excel format?

Were you out at Autobahn HDPE w/ GPS?
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      04-05-2015, 08:17 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sirdaft1 View Post
bummer about the issues. Can you pls upload the logs in excel format?

Were you out at Autobahn HDPE w/ GPS?
Yep, at least it was running fine at stock power, so I didn't waste the whole event running the car in limp mode lol.

bimmerpost doesn't like csv file for some reasons, so here is the dropbox links with all three logs at different maps.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/lm1zksa2b6...chive.zip?dl=0

Here is two videos of the limp mode coming on...

(listen for the iDrive "ding" at 4:20)



(half engine sign at the instrument panel at 10:10)

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      04-05-2015, 08:21 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FL335 View Post
In for some input.

I have the same issue...running a Cobb Pro Tune. Plugs 7k old...swapped out to all new coils and the car would't run. Too many misfires and idled like it was going to stall....swapped back to the old coils and it runs like a champ. Was only getting the misfires when I went WOT...same as you.

Maybe injector issues?
damn, why would it run even worse with new coils? perhaps one of them was faulty out of the box? I just ordered a set of new coils and spark plugs from amazon anyway. not sure if that will solve the problem, but I guess I can think of it as a preventative maintenance anyway, especially with the road racing abuse that my engine has went through in the last 7k miles.
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      04-05-2015, 08:37 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloud9blue View Post
damn, why would it run even worse with new coils? perhaps one of them was faulty out of the box? I just ordered a set of new coils and spark plugs from amazon anyway. not sure if that will solve the problem, but I guess I can think of it as a preventative maintenance anyway, especially with the road racing abuse that my engine has went through in the last 7k miles.
Yeah, probably more than 1 of the new coils was bad. I ordered them from AMZN too...who was the vendor? I have ordered several sets of plugs from German Auto Parts and they were terrific....

The coils are being returned...what a PIA. GL...I hope you get an answer and things work out...maybe its just the plugs and coils..
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      04-05-2015, 08:47 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FL335 View Post
Yeah, probably more than 1 of the new coils was bad. I ordered them from AMZN too...who was the vendor? I have ordered several sets of plugs from German Auto Parts and they were terrific....

The coils are being returned...what a PIA. GL...I hope you get an answer and things work out...maybe its just the plugs and coils..
Yeah, hope it is just coils and plugs too. I got the coils from Mueller Motorwerks, since it was fulfilled/shipped by amazon. The plugs are from Amazon directly. I really need the parts here asap, so I can install them myself after work before next weekend's track event.

The biggest annoyance is that the car drives totally fine on the streets, even with WOT from 2-5 gear... So I can't figure out whether it is the injector or plugs/coils, without trying to swap out the coils and spark plugs at the side of track with a red hot engine...
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      04-06-2015, 06:41 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloud9blue View Post
Yeah, hope it is just coils and plugs too. I got the coils from Mueller Motorwerks, since it was fulfilled/shipped by amazon. The plugs are from Amazon directly. I really need the parts here asap, so I can install them myself after work before next weekend's track event.

The biggest annoyance is that the car drives totally fine on the streets, even with WOT from 2-5 gear... So I can't figure out whether it is the injector or plugs/coils, without trying to swap out the coils and spark plugs at the side of track with a red hot engine...
GL, man. Check in and let us know what happens.
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      04-06-2015, 11:28 AM   #9
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This almost sounds heat related, can't see enough from the logs though.
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      04-06-2015, 01:45 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajsalida View Post
This almost sounds heat related, can't see enough from the logs though.
Yeah, that's what I think too. At this point I am leaning toward plug/coil, since they are more sensitive to heat than injectors from my understanding (not sure how right am I on that, but given fuel are constantly flowing through the injector, it should run significantly cooler than spark plugs).

Lets hope I am right...

Here is an informative article on piezo injectors. Figure some might find it useful.

http://www.caranddriver.com/features...tors-explained
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      04-06-2015, 02:52 PM   #11
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Which plugs are you running and what is their gap?
When was carbon cleaning done last?
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      04-06-2015, 02:54 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CHECKERED View Post
Which plugs are you running and what is their gap?
When was carbon cleaning done last?
OE style Bosch plugs, have around 10k miles on them. Never re-gapped it or anything...

Carbon cleaning was done 10k ago as well. Engine always fire right up at cold starts, so it would be hard to imagine that the injector is leaking (I should have long crank if that's the case, since the common rail would be losing pressure).
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      04-06-2015, 04:27 PM   #13
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My one step colder NGK iridium's 5992 gapped at 0.022” only lasted 9k miles, the OEM Bosch with the copper electrode do not last 10K miles on a tuned car.

Right now:

LPFP does drop a bit (but not enough to cause these issues),
Trims and open loop fuel are a bit high but normal, again this won’t cause your symptoms
Boost is consistently above target, not sure what to do about this yet…
Cylinder #2 is lagging in timing, could be injector, coil or plug


Things to try:

From easiest/cheapest to more complex: after each step re-log and see which cylinder is lagging in timing.

Move coil to cylinder 3
Switch it back to cylinder 2, and just move the plug over to #3
Do the same thing with the fuel injector (it will need to be coded)
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      04-06-2015, 06:26 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CHECKERED View Post
My one step colder NGK iridium's 5992 gapped at 0.022” only lasted 9k miles, the OEM Bosch with the copper electrode do not last 10K miles on a tuned car.

Right now:

LPFP does drop a bit (but not enough to cause these issues),
Trims and open loop fuel are a bit high but normal, again this won’t cause your symptoms
Boost is consistently above target, not sure what to do about this yet…
Cylinder #2 is lagging in timing, could be injector, coil or plug


Things to try:

From easiest/cheapest to more complex: after each step re-log and see which cylinder is lagging in timing.

Move coil to cylinder 3
Switch it back to cylinder 2, and just move the plug over to #3
Do the same thing with the fuel injector (it will need to be coded)
They are copper??? At more than $10 a piece, I always thought they are iridium... The NGK iridium one I got for my bike was only $7... Well, I suppose 10K miles is decent for copper plugs with all the boost and rev I put this engine through on the half of dozen track days I did in the past year.

Just gonna replace all my plugs and coil at this point, considering I am short on time with another track day coming up next weekend. Parts will be here by Wednesday. I will post some pictures of the condition of the old plugs then.
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      04-06-2015, 07:22 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloud9blue View Post
They are copper??? At more than $10 a piece, I always thought they are iridium... The NGK iridium one I got for my bike was only $7... Well, I suppose 10K miles is decent for copper plugs with all the boost and rev I put this engine through on the half of dozen track days I did in the past year.

Just gonna replace all my plugs and coil at this point, considering I am short on time with another track day coming up next weekend. Parts will be here by Wednesday. I will post some pictures of the condition of the old plugs then.
Yes the electrode is copper mixed with yttrium (such a tiny amount it’s useless ) and grounds are nickel chromium, thanks to Bosch criminal price fixing, you are paying $11 per plug instead of $4, your welcome!

get the NGK colder plugs, it will help with misfires after multiple WOT runs.

also, before installing the plugs mark the ground electrode with a sharpie (on the top white porcelain) when tightening make sure the ground electrode doesn't face the fuel injector, I found that this can cause the cylinder to lag in timing.
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      04-06-2015, 07:57 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CHECKERED View Post
also, before installing the plugs mark the ground electrode with a sharpie (on the top white porcelain) when tightening make sure the ground electrode doesn't face the fuel injector, I found that this can cause the cylinder to lag in timing.
Great, thanks for the tip on that.

I will stay with Bosch plugs for now and switch to NGK plugs whenever I decide to pull trigger on a set of RB or Hexon turbo and some inlets after this season, assuming I don't have to spend a ton of money fixing any other issues with this car.
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      04-07-2015, 01:43 AM   #17
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Apparently JB4 dialed up the map 2 boost from 14.5 to 17psi, when running w/ backend flash... didn't know until I loaded it up tonight and went for a short test drive...

Now I have a persistent cylinder 5 misfire that won't even go away after clearing code and restarting the car. Car shutters and sounds like it has a LS1 engine swap. At this point, I really hope it is just the coils and plugs acting up, or else replacing 3 injectors (cylinder 2, 4, 5) on my own dime is gonna cost me a quite a bit.
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      04-07-2015, 07:27 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloud9blue View Post
Apparently JB4 dialed up the map 2 boost from 14.5 to 17psi, when running w/ backend flash... didn't know until I loaded it up tonight and went for a short test drive...

Now I have a persistent cylinder 5 misfire that won't even go away after clearing code and restarting the car. Car shutters and sounds like it has a LS1 engine swap. At this point, I really hope it is just the coils and plugs acting up, or else replacing 3 injectors (cylinder 2, 4, 5) on my own dime is gonna cost me a quite a bit.
Damn. Try going back to the Stock map...I am not familiar with JB4 so not sure which # that is. See if that helps with the misfire.

My guess is the plugs and coils will help. If its the injectors...all 12 is about $1200 so just replacing 3 wouldn't be horrible. GL.
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      04-07-2015, 08:00 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloud9blue View Post
They are copper??? At more than $10 a piece, I always thought they are iridium... The NGK iridium one I got for my bike was only $7... Well, I suppose 10K miles is decent for copper plugs with all the boost and rev I put this engine through on the half of dozen track days I did in the past year.

Just gonna replace all my plugs and coil at this point, considering I am short on time with another track day coming up next weekend. Parts will be here by Wednesday. I will post some pictures of the condition of the old plugs then.
Off topic but when/where are you running the next track day? Gingerman?
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      04-07-2015, 08:20 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloud9blue View Post
Apparently JB4 dialed up the map 2 boost from 14.5 to 17psi, when running w/ backend flash... didn't know until I loaded it up tonight and went for a short test drive...

Now I have a persistent cylinder 5 misfire that won't even go away after clearing code and restarting the car. Car shutters and sounds like it has a LS1 engine swap. At this point, I really hope it is just the coils and plugs acting up, or else replacing 3 injectors (cylinder 2, 4, 5) on my own dime is gonna cost me a quite a bit.
I'm confused, sorry. Were you running the higher boost unaware on track when the issues happened? Or just recently while trying to debug those issues after?
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      04-07-2015, 09:08 AM   #21
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It was just a short 3rd gear wot pull on highway on ramp. I was just trying out the new firmware with rpm based wgdc adjustment. Switching to stock boost doesn't help jack this time. The car would misfiring at idle and the deactivate the entire bank 2 after a few seconds...

Log looked fine though, aside from the relatively low lpfp, which dragged down the hpfp a little bit as well at that high of boost. I will probably pick up a stage 2 pump once I get this misfiring issue figured out.

Track days are on this Saturday and Sunday. It's at Gingerman.
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      04-07-2015, 09:38 AM   #22
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OK, thanks. Hope you get it sorted before this weekend.
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