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      11-03-2015, 07:51 PM   #1
Riceball777
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does anyone have a lot of miles on aftermarket hybrid turbos

i'm going to need new turbos soon and a bmw specialist told my to stay away from all aftermarket hybrid twin turbos because they all never end up lasting very long at all.

Does any one here have 50,000+ miles on there after market hybrid turbos(pure, RB, VARGAS, Hexon)
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      11-04-2015, 12:01 AM   #2
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I recall a thread from about a month ago that had a bunch of people reporting their mileage. The consensus seemed to be that a lot of the failures appeared around 10k miles on at least two of the biggest vendor's turbos at a consistent rate. Not very many drivers reported being above 15k miles.
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      11-04-2015, 05:29 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Riceball777
i'm going to need new turbos soon and a bmw specialist told my to stay away from all aftermarket hybrid twin turbos because they all never end up lasting very long at all.

Does any one here have 50,000+ miles on there after market hybrid turbos(pure, RB, VARGAS, Hexon)
Deltalima has around 30k if I'm not mistaken.
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      11-04-2015, 10:09 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by JDuke335i View Post
Deltalima has around 30k if I'm not mistaken.
I was just looking at his track thread from last week when he ran in the 10s, he reported 25K miles on his RB's.
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      11-04-2015, 10:22 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by JDuke335i View Post
Deltalima has around 30k if I'm not mistaken.
I was just looking at his track thread from last week when he ran in the 10s, he reported 25K miles on his RB's.
I knew he was close to 30k , just wasn't sure how much. I do remember him saying they looked just as good as the day he installed them.
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      11-04-2015, 11:59 AM   #6
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Think the earlier failure compared to stock is due to more abuse/higher constant boost levels? Or maybe they're newly engineered internals can't handle the increase amount of heat for people running more power? I would have expected them to last near as long as OEM for the amount you pay.
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      11-04-2015, 12:30 PM   #7
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I think it is probably a combination of both those points, most who install upgraded turbos push them significantly harder then stock and there is alot more mass being slung around and larger wheels mean more torque on the shaft and transfered into the bearings so any pressure waves pounding back into the compressor wheel or harmonics generated from the natural frequency of the rotating mass is going to really hammer the internals more then the smaller lighter stock counter parts.

I'd love to see ball bearing center cartridges for upgraded twins. I think this will be the pinnacle of longevity in hybrids. One could argue that Borg Warner manages to make journal bearing turbos live under abusive situations though. One other point of interest is how short these turbos are front to back. That short shaft length means any radial play will be amplified in its movement compared to a longer shaft with the same bearing clearances. Unfortunately the physical space constraints limit the length of the turbos so the only option would be to increase the ability to weather these increased radial movements.

The problem with simply throwing ball bearing or angular contact bearing in is there is extensive developmental research needed for every turbo type. Physically making space to put bearing in the cartridges would be the easiest of the tasks required to properly setup a BB cartridge. The preload and change of preload due to thermal changes in the shaft, cartridge housing and bearings themselves is the key to having a well engineered bearing center section. This is why Garrett turbos seem so robust verse other brands who attempt to clone them. While the parts can be copied, they setup of the unit is critical and why most replicas fail prematurely. That and often the use of sub part components or materials. The long and short of it in my opinion is that when you are forced to work within the confines of the stock turbos and are increasing internal stresses without the ability to better support the components you will have the effect of shorter life spans. The degree of the shorter lifespan likely depends on how close to optimal tolerance and balance each unit arrived at. These optimal specs will help alleviate damaging harmonics and have better control over maintaining shaft location both radially and axially without being so tight that it causes a lack of lubrication.

Just my thoughts in it though..
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      11-04-2015, 12:58 PM   #8
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Heres a thread I started: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1166997

As you can tell, not a lot of high mileage aftermarket turbos out there. There are a few reasons for this that I can envision...
1) Those who have aftermarket turbos are generally the ones that beat on their cars harder, resulting in premature failures.
2) Those who have aftermarket turbos are less likely to put high miles on their cars, sell their cars before attaining high miles, or switch to different turbos in the pursuit of more power.
3) Aftermarket turbos are not built to the same quality/specs as OEM turbos.
4) Only a small fraction of the people who have aftermarket turbos are reporting their mileage.

If you are looking for a quality replacement that you're not going to worry about look no further than OEM. Unfortunately, there is zero reliable data out there to prove that aftermarket turbos last longer than OEM, in fact the available data suggests the opposite.
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      11-04-2015, 10:33 PM   #9
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I took to a bmw mechanic. And he said out of the 15hybrid n54 turbos he has installed with rbs or Vargas turbos 7 of them need removal in a very short period of time. This sounds horrible. I can't even find anyone with over 30,000 miles on there hybrid twin turbos.
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      11-06-2015, 02:15 PM   #10
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Just save up and do a single turbo top mount swap :P Get a nice by 6466 and never have to worry about turbos again. At least that's what I did. Nearly the same price to buy new RB turbos. Just spend the extra 1.5k and you get more reliability and easier to repair/replace turbo jobs.
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      11-06-2015, 02:27 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lcvette View Post
I think it is probably a combination of both those points, most who install upgraded turbos push them significantly harder then stock and there is alot more mass being slung around and larger wheels mean more torque on the shaft and transfered into the bearings so any pressure waves pounding back into the compressor wheel or harmonics generated from the natural frequency of the rotating mass is going to really hammer the internals more then the smaller lighter stock counter parts.

I'd love to see ball bearing center cartridges for upgraded twins. I think this will be the pinnacle of longevity in hybrids. One could argue that Borg Warner manages to make journal bearing turbos live under abusive situations though. One other point of interest is how short these turbos are front to back. That short shaft length means any radial play will be amplified in its movement compared to a longer shaft with the same bearing clearances. Unfortunately the physical space constraints limit the length of the turbos so the only option would be to increase the ability to weather these increased radial movements.

The problem with simply throwing ball bearing or angular contact bearing in is there is extensive developmental research needed for every turbo type. Physically making space to put bearing in the cartridges would be the easiest of the tasks required to properly setup a BB cartridge. The preload and change of preload due to thermal changes in the shaft, cartridge housing and bearings themselves is the key to having a well engineered bearing center section. This is why Garrett turbos seem so robust verse other brands who attempt to clone them. While the parts can be copied, they setup of the unit is critical and why most replicas fail prematurely. That and often the use of sub part components or materials. The long and short of it in my opinion is that when you are forced to work within the confines of the stock turbos and are increasing internal stresses without the ability to better support the components you will have the effect of shorter life spans. The degree of the shorter lifespan likely depends on how close to optimal tolerance and balance each unit arrived at. These optimal specs will help alleviate damaging harmonics and have better control over maintaining shaft location both radially and axially without being so tight that it causes a lack of lubrication.

Just my thoughts in it though..
What?
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      11-18-2015, 02:56 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CeeWhizzle View Post
Just save up and do a single turbo top mount swap :P Get a nice by 6466 and never have to worry about turbos again. At least that's what I did. Nearly the same price to buy new RB turbos. Just spend the extra 1.5k and you get more reliability and easier to repair/replace turbo jobs.
I'm starting to lean this way more and more.
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      11-18-2015, 04:59 PM   #13
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I'm starting to lean this way more and more.
You make your 335i much more reliable and able to gain more power since the turbo size restriction is only to your imagination. I can fit a 6766 easily and still have some room to work. And that's a damn big turbo for an engine smaller than a v8/10.

Far better power band, torque and fuel mileage. The twins just didn't cut it for the average "mod-er". Twins are better for those who prefer stock or close to stock.

Turbo lag can be easily solved via Meth or Nitrous but even without those the lag isn't that bad. Gives a good positive towards controlling traction when launching or doing a hard 2nd gear pull.
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      11-18-2015, 05:45 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CeeWhizzle View Post
You make your 335i much more reliable and able to gain more power since the turbo size restriction is only to your imagination. I can fit a 6766 easily and still have some room to work. And that's a damn big turbo for an engine smaller than a v8/10.

Far better power band, torque and fuel mileage. The twins just didn't cut it for the average "mod-er". Twins are better for those who prefer stock or close to stock.

Turbo lag can be easily solved via Meth or Nitrous but even without those the lag isn't that bad. Gives a good positive towards controlling traction when launching or doing a hard 2nd gear pull.
What I like about singles is the option to get a ball bearing. I have yet seen a vendor sell ANY twin turbo kit with BB's as an option.
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      11-19-2015, 09:53 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J. Dub View Post
What I like about singles is the option to get a ball bearing. I have yet seen a vendor sell ANY twin turbo kit with BB's as an option.
That's definitely true as well. Not sure what the reason is there. Probably due to cost.
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      12-01-2015, 07:15 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CeeWhizzle View Post
That's definitely true as well. Not sure what the reason is there. Probably due to cost.
You're probably correct sadly.
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      12-01-2015, 07:22 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J. Dub View Post
What I like about singles is the option to get a ball bearing. I have yet seen a vendor sell ANY twin turbo kit with BB's as an option.
Let's see if they can get journal bearings to last first

I wonder if there just isn't enough room in the CHRA for ball bearings?
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      12-08-2015, 03:20 PM   #18
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I have a little over 50k on my set of rb. From initial install no issues. Its my dd and do a lot of mixed driving. Im not going max boost every light but i do run it hard at times.
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      12-08-2015, 06:20 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nOshi View Post
I have a little over 50k on my set of rb. From initial install no issues. Its my dd and do a lot of mixed driving. Im not going max boost every light but i do run it hard at times.
thats pretty good.
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      12-08-2015, 07:09 PM   #20
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And can't see why RBs won't last as long as OEMs.
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      12-09-2015, 04:05 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lcvette View Post
I think it is probably a combination of both those points, most who install upgraded turbos push them significantly harder then stock and there is alot more mass being slung around and larger wheels mean more torque on the shaft and transfered into the bearings so any pressure waves pounding back into the compressor wheel or harmonics generated from the natural frequency of the rotating mass is going to really hammer the internals more then the smaller lighter stock counter parts.
Agree 100%

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      12-10-2015, 01:41 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nOshi View Post
I have a little over 50k on my set of rb. From initial install no issues. Its my dd and do a lot of mixed driving. Im not going max boost every light but i do run it hard at times.
Which rb's did you install?
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