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      01-20-2014, 05:49 AM   #1
Alex.J
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Camber, Toe and castor

Hello all,

I am fitting my H&R Springs this week (all being well).

Now i am having my alignment done afterward, as you should.

However, im wondering what sort of adjustment on standard arms do you have?

Can you adjust camber and toe sufficently to bring back the settings to standard after lowering?

What figures are people having there align set to? whats ideal?

I usually had a set up of -1deg(sometimes -2deg on the rear) camber all round, and slight toe out on the front and slight toe in on the rear, but this isnt on a bmw, this was on more track focused cars..

Thanks in advance
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      01-20-2014, 03:49 PM   #2
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Assuming you're using a place with Hunter (or similar) equipment, ask them to use the ZSP settings. There's a choice of non-sport (SE), sport (MSport), ZSP and M3. The ZSP settings seem to be optimised for lowered suspension, subjectively the handling feels better than trying to reset the geometry to MSport, and I certainly have no complaints at all.

I am going to ask my place to try M3 alignment in the spring though, see how close they can get.
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      01-20-2014, 03:53 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by parapaul View Post
Assuming you're using a place with Hunter (or similar) equipment, ask them to use the ZSP settings. There's a choice of non-sport (SE), sport (MSport), ZSP and M3. The ZSP settings seem to be optimised for lowered suspension, subjectively the handling feels better than trying to reset the geometry to MSport, and I certainly have no complaints at all.

I am going to ask my place to try M3 alignment in the spring though, see how close they can get.
Thanks for that, do you know if the zsp settings are available on the internet ?!

Ta muchly!
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      01-21-2014, 01:24 AM   #4
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Hang on, I'm sure I posted a pic of the printout when it was done...

Edit: Yep

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      01-21-2014, 03:42 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by parapaul View Post
Hang on, I'm sure I posted a pic of the printout when it was done...

Edit: Yep



Thats perfect!

Thank you muchly!
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      01-21-2014, 09:37 AM   #6
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Would similar settings be viable/applicable on any ride height?
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      01-21-2014, 11:44 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jat View Post
Would similar settings be viable/applicable on any ride height?
Yes mate!

Obviously if your so low that the standard arms physical don't have the adjustment in them!

But I would say on your car, you will be ok!
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      01-21-2014, 12:03 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex.J View Post
Yes mate!

Obviously if your so low that the standard arms physical don't have the adjustment in them!

But I would say on your car, you will be ok!
Yes, I just checked against my old printout (as getting new rear tyres on this week and will prob get alignment done too), and setting are pretty similar, except my rear camber is around the -2' mark. Might get it set to closer to -1.5' as I am eating inner edges of tyres more than I would like.
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      01-21-2014, 12:06 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jat View Post
Yes, I just checked against my old printout (as getting new rear tyres on this week and will prob get alignment done too), and setting are pretty similar, except my rear camber is around the -2' mark. Might get it set to closer to -1.5' as I am eating inner edges of tyres more than I would like.
toe eats tires, the further in from neutral, the more wear

of course, the more toe in, the better grip on acceleration, and stability at high speed

it's a trade-off
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      01-21-2014, 12:34 PM   #10
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I know the issue is with toe, and my setting are pretty close to above. I will see what the garage says, and take it from there. I am also changing tyre brand, so will see how they wear.
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      01-21-2014, 04:37 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jat View Post
I know the issue is with toe, and my setting are pretty close to above. I will see what the garage says, and take it from there. I am also changing tyre brand, so will see how they wear.
Camber at -2 will cause inner edge wear!

I would, as you say, knock it back to closer to -1.5 and check the toe !
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      01-21-2014, 04:45 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex.J View Post
Camber at -2 will cause inner edge wear!

I would, as you say, knock it back to closer to -1.5 and check the toe !
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tirete...e.jsp?techid=4

"The toe setting is typically used to help compensate for the suspension bushings compliance to enhance tire wear."

Toe effects how rapidly your tires wear. Camber effects where they wear.
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      01-21-2014, 05:00 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tc535i View Post
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tirete...e.jsp?techid=4

"The toe setting is typically used to help compensate for the suspension bushings compliance to enhance tire wear."

Toe effects how rapidly your tires wear. Camber effects where they wear.
And if his inner edges are wearing, the camber is causing this, hence the inner, a result of - camber.. Which you said is location based!
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      01-21-2014, 05:05 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex.J View Post
And if his inner edges are wearing, the camber is causing this, hence the inner, a result of - camber.. Which you said is location based!
yes, but unless you only drive the car around town and corner like my grandmother, the outsides are going to get a workout and the wear should be even across. But if you have excessive toe, those insides are going to burn out faster than the outsides can keep up.

Quote:
Might get it set to closer to -1.5' as I am eating inner edges of tyres more than I would like.
I guess you can interpret that either way, but to me it sounds like he's burning up the inside faster than they should, which is a toe issue.
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      01-21-2014, 05:07 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tc535i View Post
yes, but unless you only drive the car around town and corner like my grandmother, the outsides are going to get a workout and the wear should be even across. But if you have excessive toe, those insides are going to burn out faster than the outsides can keep up.



I guess you can interpret that either way, but to me it sounds like he's burning up the inside faster than they should, which is a toe issue.
If it was set at 0 camber he wouldn't have this problem !
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      01-21-2014, 05:19 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex.J View Post
If it was set at 0 camber he wouldn't have this problem !
lol.... toe is still a problem, stop focusing on camber

if your tires burn up in 10,000 miles but they wore evenly, is there no problem?
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      01-22-2014, 02:59 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tc535i View Post
lol.... toe is still a problem, stop focusing on camber

if your tires burn up in 10,000 miles but they wore evenly, is there no problem?
Other than a heavy right foot?
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      01-22-2014, 05:51 AM   #18
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Thanks for all the info above guys, I understand it that basically if the toe is excessive, I would basically be dragging my tyres across the road causing excessive wear. I think the toe is not excessive, since it matches pretty close the the recommendations above. The only thing I can see as a bit out if camber at -2.

In any case, I will get it all checked as things may well have moved out since I last had it done and so my current settings may be quite different to what I think they are.

I appreciate the info, and sorry for thread-jacking!
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      01-22-2014, 06:03 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tc535i View Post
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tirete...e.jsp?techid=4

"The toe setting is typically used to help compensate for the suspension bushings compliance to enhance tire wear."

Toe effects how rapidly your tires wear. Camber effects where they wear.
Very informative link, thanks.
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      01-22-2014, 06:08 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex.J View Post
Hello all,

I am fitting my H&R Springs this week (all being well).

Now i am having my alignment done afterward, as you should.

However, im wondering what sort of adjustment on standard arms do you have?

Can you adjust camber and toe sufficently to bring back the settings to standard after lowering?

What figures are people having there align set to? whats ideal?

I usually had a set up of -1deg(sometimes -2deg on the rear) camber all round, and slight toe out on the front and slight toe in on the rear, but this isnt on a bmw, this was on more track focused cars..

Thanks in advance
Alex,

You can't adjust front camber without knocking out the strut top locating pins, which isn't advised. So front camber is was it is, and being lowered it may increase a little which is fine.

Go for M3 settings, I had this on my 335i and it transformed the car.

Standard tourers have a lot of rear neg camber anyway, same as M3 IIRC (-1.5deg?)

Standard tourers also have a lot of rear toe IN which makes the car stable (i.e not want to turn) you want to decrease to M3 toe in which is about 0deg5' IIRC (i.e. 5 minutes or 5/60 of a degree)

The M3 has the same front and rear toe in.

So to summarise:

M3 front toe in
M3 rear toe in
M3 rear camber

We're only talking about fractions of a degree between standard and M3 but it makes a big difference.

Make sure your alignment place gets in spot on, not just in the tolerance band as the bands are so wide.

Thats your lot
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      01-22-2014, 11:16 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doughboy View Post
You can't adjust front camber without knocking out the strut top locating pins, which isn't advised.
Any particular reason? I've heard of many people doing it, and my shop suggested I do it for a bit more camber when I refresh the other bits and align.

Care to expand on possible downsides of removing the pin?
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      01-22-2014, 04:54 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tc535i View Post
Any particular reason? I've heard of many people doing it, and my shop suggested I do it for a bit more camber when I refresh the other bits and align.

Care to expand on possible downsides of removing the pin?
The pin is the main device that holds the strut top in position, the 3 small stud nuts are not meant to stop it moving around.

if you look at a proper adjustable camber plate it has substantial fixings and locking screws to stop movement or eccentric adjusters that are rock solid.

Without the pin, chances are your strut top will move when you hit a pothole and put the alignment out.

From an engineering point of view this seems right, and I also had this advice from two motorsport alignment shops and Birds BMW who are the leading UK independant BMW specialists.

But I agree, people do do this, so each to their own...
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