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      11-10-2007, 08:41 AM   #1
fast_lap28
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Rough Idle: Help

ok guys, I know this topic has been discussed in other threads so believe me, I have read them ALL.

Here is the deal. I continue to experience rough idling mostly after car gets up to temp (240) and in particular when stopped at stop lights when the car has to idle. This started at around 2500 - 3000 miles ago, the car is 7/07 build. I am now at 5500 miles, changed oil at break-in period (1200) and have used nothing lower than 93 octane from start...

I took the car to dealer for diagnostics at 3300 miles and explained in detail the symptoms. Left car with them for two days and they could not find anything with regards to needed software upgrades, HPFP, injectors, etc. Even the tech that looked at car acknowledged that he also experiences the rough idle with his 335. I heard more that this is a normal phenomena in these high torque N54 motors and that may be related to the Vanos in some way - how cams work? I am no tech nor I have enough education on this new N54 motor (new to BMW) but I sure as hell DONT like the idea of this issue being "normal" on such a new vehicle. I was hoping this was going to be a software update issue but all that dealer said was that software upgrades where available BUT for earlier build cars and that I could run into the possibility of messing something else (unadjusting a particular setting) if I just updated my software with one of the last updates they had - so no update.

I even filled two gas tanks and added a fuel cleaner such as Chevron Techron and Lucas Fuel Injector Cleaner with the thinking that I would just try something different. Even though 93 octane is all I use I keep on hearing that gasolines in this area could still be dirty??? (use Shell V only). Though I noticed that my cold start idle is not as rough as before (idle drops from 1000 to 850 to 750 to 600). I understand that at cold start the idle will adjust and I am fine with this. But the fact that car at temp likes to "buck", "shake slightly", "shutter" and "vibrate" is driving me nuts now and the fact that techs at dealer couldn't find anything or give me a concrete answer is as to why car acts this way is UNACCEPTABLE when we are driving such a machine!!!

HELP: If anyone out there (other BMWNA techs, engineers, tuners, individuals w/ similar experiences) can chime in on this and give me a sense to why this is happening on my baby and how can it be corrected I would be in debt to you!!! I just want to feel at ease if indeed this is normal and if not then I need to find a solution SOON! :sad0147: :sad0147: :sad0147:
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      11-10-2007, 08:42 AM   #2
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oh yeah...sorry to bust up the V2 and other more interesting threads!!! My bad.

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      11-11-2007, 09:33 PM   #3
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wow! nobody experiences rough idle??



BUMP
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      11-11-2007, 09:53 PM   #4
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Sounds to me like an ignition problem, or the standard bad gas answer. I do know that on one occasion I did get bad gas and it took a while to work itself out. But I would not catogorize this behavior as "normal" for a 335i.
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      11-11-2007, 10:19 PM   #5
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I too heard that roughness is common among the 335i. It really could be your fuel pump walking out the door on you. If the vibrations are barely noticable and then progress to be worse and worse, then my money is on a fuel pump.

My e90 had the same problem. After about 2 weeks I began to worry about stalling. It is a progress on the fuel pump degradation. Starts as a tiny vibration and works itself into the driver and sometimes passenger getting a free butt massage.

The techs told me there is nothing they can do about it since it IS "normal". All they can do is update the software and waitfor the fuel pump to fail. Just hope for the best, and assume that it is just the normal vibrations others are experiencing.
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      11-13-2007, 02:54 AM   #6
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mine bops around a little bit from time to time, but its certainly not getting worse, and is not a regular thing. id like to say im experiencing similar things, but yours sounds much worse than i would describe mine (hardly noteworthy)im my mind thats sounds fine to me. good luck
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      11-14-2007, 09:47 PM   #7
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I have a production date of a month or two earlier and I don't think "buck" and "shutter" are normal at all. I had this once, recently, including some CELs due to bad gas that took a couple of good tanks to work itself out. But, you say this has been going on for thousands of miles. I'd say as a test, at least try another brand of gas, like Union 76, for two tanks - especially if you always use the same Shell station. If that doesn't help, I'd keep hitting up the dealer as this being unacceptable...
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      11-14-2007, 10:13 PM   #8
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My 07 e90 has the same thing. I put plasma coils in the car, and oddly enough, it took the shake away at idle. For about 5k miles, they were on the car, but now they are off, and the shakes are back.
PS
Stay away from shell gas. In my area bmw was or did sue shell gas because that gas was so dirty, it blew engines. My own car had to have the tank dropped and emptied, and cleaned before it went back in. All around my area, so I dont know if they fixed the problem, or not, but I avoid shell at all costs.
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      11-14-2007, 11:13 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rideelement247 View Post
I too heard that roughness is common among the 335i. It really could be your fuel pump walking out the door on you. If the vibrations are barely noticable and then progress to be worse and worse, then my money is on a fuel pump.

My e90 had the same problem. After about 2 weeks I began to worry about stalling. It is a progress on the fuel pump degradation. Starts as a tiny vibration and works itself into the driver and sometimes passenger getting a free butt massage.

The techs told me there is nothing they can do about it since it IS "normal". All they can do is update the software and waitfor the fuel pump to fail. Just hope for the best, and assume that it is just the normal vibrations others are experiencing.

+1 I'm going with rideelement247's analysis.

Not all of the HPFP failures happen overnight or in a matter of days, though most do. Some take several weeks after the initial vibration and slightly rough idle or long crank.

Are you experiencing any other symptoms of the typical HPFP failure like long crank at startup or when heat soaked?
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      11-15-2007, 11:12 AM   #10
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First of all, this rough idling is not normal!!! It could be an injector which is leaking some fuel (when it is supposed to be closed) when the engine temp is high. This can only be felt in idle. Did they change the spark plugs? Did they change anything?
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      11-15-2007, 04:33 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6Zylinder View Post
First of all, this rough idling is not normal!!! It could be an injector which is leaking some fuel (when it is supposed to be closed) when the engine temp is high. This can only be felt in idle. Did they change the spark plugs? Did they change anything?
Usually when you complain of this, they just reflash your ECU and put in an updated software. I believe it basically clears the adaptive values and adjusts something in the fuel delivery system. That is what my SA and techs told me.

Repeated complaints to BMW does nothing but have a amanger look at it and declare that you get the update, and if you have the update, they basically tell you it is normal.

The ONLY time they are authorized to get you a new fuel pump is when your car throws a code from not being able to deliver enough fuel to the engine. By this time it is too late, as it only throws the code when you first start your car and it takes too long to crank, where your car will throw a (!) and le you know that something with the engine is wrong. That or it will die out on you while driving and throw a code.
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      11-15-2007, 06:31 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rideelement247 View Post
Usually when you complain of this, they just reflash your ECU and put in an updated software. I believe it basically clears the adaptive values and adjusts something in the fuel delivery system. That is what my SA and techs told me.

Repeated complaints to BMW does nothing but have a amanger look at it and declare that you get the update, and if you have the update, they basically tell you it is normal.
Thats exactly what I hate nowadays. They think with an ECU update everything can be solved, but thats not the case. You still have parts like injectors or spark plugs etc. that become faulty and these things can't be fixed with a software update. Don't garages know how to troubleshoot a problem? Apparently they are to lazy to use manhours for finding the fault. They rather say "thats normal". BS!
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      11-15-2007, 06:33 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6Zylinder View Post
Thats exactly what I hate nowadays. They think with an ECU update everything can be solved, but thats not the case. You still have parts like injectors or spark plugs etc. that become faulty and these things can't be fixed with a software update. Don't garages know how to troubleshoot a problem? Apparently they are to lazy to use manhours for finding the fault. They rather say "thats normal". BS!
Yeah, I know. It is a shitty position to be in.
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      11-15-2007, 10:15 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bimmermans54 View Post
My 07 e90 has the same thing. I put plasma coils in the car, and oddly enough, it took the shake away at idle. For about 5k miles, they were on the car, but now they are off, and the shakes are back.
PS
Stay away from shell gas. In my area bmw was or did sue shell gas because that gas was so dirty, it blew engines. My own car had to have the tank dropped and emptied, and cleaned before it went back in. All around my area, so I dont know if they fixed the problem, or not, but I avoid shell at all costs.
well, I heard that Shell gas like that from some of the other pumps can be dirty...but how the hell are we to know which pump has the cleanest? it's like a cat and mouse game now-a-days with gas. I will definitely try switching next couple of tanks.

Q: where did you get the plasma coils? and after you put them back in have your shakes completely went away?
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      11-15-2007, 10:20 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6Zylinder View Post
First of all, this rough idling is not normal!!! It could be an injector which is leaking some fuel (when it is supposed to be closed) when the engine temp is high. This can only be felt in idle. Did they change the spark plugs? Did they change anything?
this is an interesting point about the injectors leaking, but how could I approach my service manager with this theory??? what my service manager did tell me is that software updates for my car would not resolve the issue some of the earlier updates for earlier builds did. that I can just keep on checking from time to time with them, maybe more people have complained enough to warrant a new/latest update.
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      11-16-2007, 02:28 AM   #16
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Ask your service manager: "If a software update doesn't help, then it must be a mechanical problem?" Some mechanical problem will not trigger any codes and can't be fixed with software, because it doesn't happen all the times (many variables change). And how can they check the spray pattern of the injector when they never removed any? If the injectors are not perfect, it will screw up the idle and can foul the spark plugs. Don't take any BS!
Good luck.
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      11-17-2007, 10:38 PM   #17
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My car too has a bit of a rough idle. Just noticed it tonight, it cant seem to hold any rpm for more than a couple seconds at idle. I'm going to try getting some new gas. My wife filled it up last so who knows where she took it.
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      11-17-2007, 11:07 PM   #18
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I always use Amoco (BP) 93 octane and have no problems.
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      11-21-2007, 12:52 AM   #19
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fast_lap i am having similar problems.

When my car is idling at normal temp, especially at long lights or when I am in the car wash, my car will begin to "shake." The "shaking" sensation is equivalent to someone rocking back and forth deliberately in their car seat. The weird thing is I receive no CELs or anything. Also, the car seems perfectly normal while driving, slamming on the pedal, slamming on the brake, etc. The only time I feel this vibration is at idle during operating temps.

The other thing I noticed is, if I am experiencing the "shaky" idle, and I step on the gas ever so slightly, the "shake" amplifies. It continues to "shake" pretty harshly until I step on the gas enough to get the car moving.

Does anyone have a clue to what this could be?
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      11-21-2007, 04:56 AM   #20
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From a cold start, my car idles @ 1000 rpm, then a few seconds later, it drops to 800 rpm, then a few more seconds later it drops to 600 rpm......I'm assuming this is NORMAL from a cold start? It hasn't given me a problem when the car's up to temp........Is this normal??
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      11-21-2007, 06:27 AM   #21
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I had a bunch of rough idle/fluctuating idle RPMs and stalling issues with my car over this past summer. I took the car in for service a couple of times and had the software updated, but the techs could never find a problem. No codes were thrown, either. I was sure my fuel pump was going to die. However, my car magically began running very smoothly and without issue this fall - maybe it's due to adaptation to the updated software. At any rate, my car has over 13000 miles on it now and seems to be running strong. Sadly, I think this is one of those fairly common issues that won't get resolved until something completely fails.
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      11-21-2007, 08:40 AM   #22
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Quote:
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I had a bunch of rough idle/fluctuating idle RPMs and stalling issues with my car over this past summer. I took the car in for service a couple of times and had the software updated, but the techs could never find a problem. No codes were thrown, either. I was sure my fuel pump was going to die. However, my car magically began running very smoothly and without issue this fall - maybe it's due to adaptation to the updated software. At any rate, my car has over 13000 miles on it now and seems to be running strong. Sadly, I think this is one of those fairly common issues that won't get resolved until something completely fails.
Probably the load of the AC compressor. Mine had a rough iddle. Turn off the AC and it iddled nicely. AC running and it was rough. Since you are in VA the AC won't be on in the fall.
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