E90Post
 


GT Haus
 
BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > BMW E90/E92/E93 3-series General Forums > Regional Forums > UK > Is the 325D dead?



Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      11-15-2007, 05:41 PM   #1
scotw
4
Lieutenant
 
scotw's Avatar
 
Drives: E90 320D SG
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: uk

Posts: 468
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2007 E90 320D  [0.00]
Is the 325D dead?

Saw another review today of the 123d and again, they loved it.

Just before I ordered my 320D, a chap I work with was trying to persuade to me go for the 325D, I could have dropped a couple of options and got one, so I was thinking about it pretty seriously.

But, in the end, the low power increase (over the ED320D) & poorer economy made me stick to my original choice. In fact the Efficient Dynamics stuff was a major factor in my decision. If I'd been buying 6 months ago I'd have plumped for the 325D. If there was a 323D, then it would have been a no-brainer.

So, have BMW killed the 325d? I did wonder that if it gets dropped next year that I might have ended up with a car that had poor residuals as people wouldn't want it. 3 years from now, who knows how much car tax we'll pay based on CO2.
scotw is offline   United Kingdom
Appreciate 0
Reply With Quote
      11-15-2007, 05:53 PM   #2
dxb335d
292
The Tarmac Terrorist
 
dxb335d's Avatar
 
Drives: E46 M3 CS
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: ''Fandango Towers''

Posts: 29,285
iTrader: (3)

Garage List
I think you are right, they must just kill it off, but on the other hand, the 123d/ and the forthcoming 323d, is a 2.0 twin turbo where as the 325d is a 2.5 or 3.0 litre isnt it? so it might stay that little bit longer?!
__________________
M3 gone .... But I now have a M3 CS
dxb335d is offline   England
Appreciate 0
Reply With Quote
      11-15-2007, 07:04 PM   #3
mjh93sa
50
Major General
 
mjh93sa's Avatar
 
Drives: M135i
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Gloucestershire

Posts: 5,079
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
It's a difficult one as I think that the 325D and the hypothetical (at the moment) 323D would appeal to different people.

Although they put out about the same headline power figure I'll bet that the larger capacity of the 325D (3litre) gives it a flatter torque curve and so a more relaxed drive with more in gear flexibility. Equally the six cylinder engine will make it that much more quiet, smooth and refined. For somebody who isn't bothered about absolute fuel economy but is still budget conscious it is the entry level to six cylinder motoring in the diesel 3. As such it deserves it's place in the model line-up

However, a "323D" would be one hell of a proposition for anyone who wants good economy or is facing a company car tax bill. Enough torque to put most normal cars in the shade and excellent fuel economy to boot. It might not be as fast as a 325D given a peakier torque curve so a little less acceleration for the same revs, but I'll bet it wouldn't be more than a couple of tenths off. But who knows until they try it?

The 320d isn't the best selling BMW without reason. A "323D" could easily take that title.
__________________

Gone: Fiesta - Focus - E46 320dSE - E91 330dMSport - E82 135iMSport - R55 JCW Clubman
Now: M135i with lots of toys
mjh93sa is offline   England
Appreciate 0
Reply With Quote
      11-15-2007, 07:10 PM   #4
E92Fan
54
Moderator
 
E92Fan's Avatar
 
Drives: .
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: .

Posts: 5,492
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mjh93sa View Post
It's a difficult one as I think that the 325D and the hypothetical (at the moment) 323D would appeal to different people.

...the six cylinder engine will make it that much more quiet, smooth and refined. For somebody who isn't bothered about absolute fuel economy but is still budget conscious it is the entry level to six cylinder motoring in the diesel 3. As such it deserves it's place in the model line-up

Couldn't agree more. There is something to be said for a 6 cylinder diesel - the refinement and more relaxed nature I think suits a 3 series, as opposed to a 1 series. The 1 is more compact, is more 'fun' theoretcially, so having a very punchy, slightly peaky 4-cylinder diesel suits its character more than that same engine being in a 3 series. The 3 series has grown up a lot in character over the last two iterations (with the 1 series taking up the mantle of small, or smaller, fun-driving cars). The entry-level 6cyl diesel is here to stay I think.
E92Fan is offline   United Kingdom
Appreciate 0
Reply With Quote
      11-16-2007, 02:47 AM   #5
Ulrikgm
0
Private
 
Drives: 525d E61 LCI msport
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Denmark

Posts: 99
iTrader: (0)

I guess the 325d is better for tuning because you can get it to 280bhp with just a chip. That will be hard with a 323d.

Regarding the torque curve I think the two turbos in the 323d will make it give max torque very early in the rev range like it is the case with the 335d.
Ulrikgm is offline  
Appreciate 0
Reply With Quote
      11-16-2007, 03:19 AM   #6
mikem
15
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Drives: Z4M
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Somewhere

Posts: 1,549
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulrikgm View Post
I guess the 325d is better for tuning because you can get it to 280bhp with just a chip. That will be hard with a 323d.

Regarding the torque curve I think the two turbos in the 323d will make it give max torque very early in the rev range like it is the case with the 335d.

The 325d can`t be mapped to any more than 240 hp, trust me. Max torque is available on a standard 325d at 1300 rpm (450 rpm lower than a 330d).
mikem is offline  
Appreciate 0
Reply With Quote
      11-16-2007, 03:53 AM   #7
Bumps
8
Captain
 
Bumps's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 320i M Sport
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Hampshire, UK

Posts: 859
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikem View Post
The 325d can`t be mapped to any more than 240 hp, trust me. Max torque is available on a standard 325d at 1300 rpm (450 rpm lower than a 330d).
But that's more power than a 330d. And the 330d has about 80lb/ft more torque, which will be across a similar rev range. And with 325ds at about £2.5K cheaper than 330ds at list price, then factor in a remap, the savvy buyer may well buy a 325d and remap it, all for about £2K less than the cost of a new 330d. That gives him/her leather and Nav with a discount thrown in. You're effectively getting the 3.0 litre d engine in the 325d, just in a lower state of tune. The newer engines are resistant to remapping, as has been discussed elsewhere. BMW can therefore introduce the "23d" and be surer that nobody can map it easily, whereas the "25d" can be, and it's thirstier and emits more CO2. So, I reckon the "23d" engine is paving the way for getting rid of the "25d", as the new engine will not be able to be mapped easily, and even if it can, most likely not past the 230bhp ish of the "30d", and it wil be considerably more economical. The "25d" is hardly any more economical than the "30d" anyway (probably none more so in the real world where you will rev it harder that the "30d" to get the same result, and use more fuel). The mapping issue clearly matters to BMW, or why would they go to so much trouble to make it so hard to remap their new engines? I think the "30d" will become the 'lower end' 6cyl diesel, as the 320d is already not too far off the 325d in real terms. The 323d would be a bit cheaper and would open up a whole new set of buyers I reckon.

The only people really potentially losing out on the 325d are BMW at the moment, and that won't happen for long IMHO.
Bumps is offline   United Kingdom
Appreciate 0
Reply With Quote
      11-16-2007, 04:49 AM   #8
hmi1750
11
Major
 
hmi1750's Avatar
 
Drives: M135i
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: London, UK

Posts: 1,130
iTrader: (0)

I think the 320d will just go and be replaced with the 323d.
hmi1750 is offline  
Appreciate 0
Reply With Quote
      11-16-2007, 05:34 AM   #9
Bumps
8
Captain
 
Bumps's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 320i M Sport
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Hampshire, UK

Posts: 859
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmi1750 View Post
I think the 320d will just go and be replaced with the 323d.
But then you'd have the 323d with bigger 'headline' figures than the 325d. So which would be the base model? I know they will drive very differently but the model line up would go up the spout and BMW simply won't do that. They could use the "23d" engine and badge it 320d, but then you would have the problem of what to call it across the 1 series range then too. I think the 320d will stay as is, and the 325 will go. Don't know whether I'd put money on it though
Bumps is offline   United Kingdom
Appreciate 0
Reply With Quote
      11-16-2007, 05:42 AM   #10
E92Fan
54
Moderator
 
E92Fan's Avatar
 
Drives: .
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: .

Posts: 5,492
iTrader: (0)

What would you rather have though? A punchy 323d with a 4-cyl engine, or a more refined and equally as quick 325d with the 6-cyl engine?

For me it'd be the 325d - maybe I'm getting older (eek!) but I value the long-term refinement more than the initial punch and verve. Don't get me wrong, I love power and the feeling it gives (proper megalomaniac I am..!) and that's why I got a 335, but I'm more impressed overall with the smoothness of the car and how I can travel 800 miles in a day, totally relaxed, only stopping for petrol and sandwiches...
E92Fan is offline   United Kingdom
Appreciate 0
Reply With Quote
      11-16-2007, 05:49 AM   #11
Ulrikgm
0
Private
 
Drives: 525d E61 LCI msport
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Denmark

Posts: 99
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikem View Post
The 325d can`t be mapped to any more than 240 hp, trust me. Max torque is available on a standard 325d at 1300 rpm (450 rpm lower than a 330d).
Whatever you say - but Hartge and ESS are doing it so I willtrust them instead. It is very close to being the same engine as found in the 330d even the gearbox is the same. I think BMW are saying that the 330d has variable turbo geometry and the 325d does not but I am starting to doubt that.

http://www.esstuning.com/default.asp...ubcat2=265&id=

http://www.hartge.de/e/bmw_motor_4344.html

Ulrik
Ulrikgm is offline  
Appreciate 0
Reply With Quote
      11-16-2007, 07:53 AM   #12
scotw
4
Lieutenant
 
scotw's Avatar
 
Drives: E90 320D SG
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: uk

Posts: 468
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2007 E90 320D  [0.00]
Quote:
What would you rather have though? A punchy 323d with a 4-cyl engine, or a more refined and equally as quick 325d with the 6-cyl engine?
Is it as simple as that? At cruising speeds I think there is not much in it, so for most people its not that big of a deal. However, with the EU breathing down their neck and making noises about average CO2, BMW need more low CO2 engines in their range.

I think we could see 318D,320D,323D as 4 cly engines, with the 330D & 335D toping the range as 6.

Of the other advanges as someone said is that the 325D can no longer be used as a cheap 330D with a remap, a 323D will be more resistant to remaping than the 325D
scotw is offline   United Kingdom
Appreciate 0
Reply With Quote
      11-16-2007, 11:36 AM   #13
mikem
15
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Drives: Z4M
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Somewhere

Posts: 1,549
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bumps View Post
But that's more power than a 330d. And the 330d has about 80lb/ft more torque, which will be across a similar rev range. And with 325ds at about 2.5K cheaper than 330ds at list price, then factor in a remap, the savvy buyer may well buy a 325d and remap it, all for about 2K less than the cost of a new 330d. That gives him/her leather and Nav with a discount thrown in. You're effectively getting the 3.0 litre d engine in the 325d, just in a lower state of tune. The newer engines are resistant to remapping, as has been discussed elsewhere. BMW can therefore introduce the "23d" and be surer that nobody can map it easily, whereas the "25d" can be, and it's thirstier and emits more CO2. So, I reckon the "23d" engine is paving the way for getting rid of the "25d", as the new engine will not be able to be mapped easily, and even if it can, most likely not past the 230bhp ish of the "30d", and it wil be considerably more economical. The "25d" is hardly any more economical than the "30d" anyway (probably none more so in the real world where you will rev it harder that the "30d" to get the same result, and use more fuel). The mapping issue clearly matters to BMW, or why would they go to so much trouble to make it so hard to remap their new engines? I think the "30d" will become the 'lower end' 6cyl diesel, as the 320d is already not too far off the 325d in real terms. The 323d would be a bit cheaper and would open up a whole new set of buyers I reckon.

The only people really potentially losing out on the 325d are BMW at the moment, and that won't happen for long IMHO.

BMW have made the new d`s so much more difficult to crack for one reason only. They`re bringing out their own performance tuning products.
......and lets be honest, who cares if its a 323d or 325d, it`ll be shit even when tuned as its a diesel. The only diesel worth having is the 335d and only then if your old and lazy.



Quote:
Originally Posted by scotw

Is it as simple as that? At cruising speeds I think there is not much in it, so for most people its not that big of a deal. However, with the EU breathing down their neck and making noises about average CO2, BMW need more low CO2 engines in their range.

I think we could see 318D,320D,323D as 4 cly engines, with the 330D & 335D toping the range as 6.

Of the other advanges as someone said is that the 325D can no longer be used as a cheap 330D with a remap, a 323D will be more resistant to remaping than the 325D







If the 323d is geared the same as a the 123d, there`ll be a big difference. 123d is out of puff in 4th at 100mph, whereas the 325d will go to 120mph in 4th, even before its mapped.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulrikgm

Whatever you say - but Hartge and ESS are doing it so I willtrust them instead. It is very close to being the same engine as found in the 330d even the gearbox is the same. I think BMW are saying that the 330d has variable turbo geometry and the 325d does not but I am starting to doubt that.

http://www.esstuning.com/default.asp...&subcat2=265&i d=

http://www.hartge.de/e/bmw_motor_4344.html

Ulrik.





Your link to ESS shows exactly what I said, theirs is running at 238 PS.
Trust who you want lad, I spent 11 hrs in a tuning shop with my 325d, trying all sorts of different settings, it wont go anymore than 240 without over stressing things. This is the same reason why the 118d can`t be tuned to produce the same power as a mapped 120d. The turbos are much smaller, so only so much extra air can be added. Sure you can over fuel it to fuck and with a particle filter you wont get any smoke, but what happens when your PF dies at 20K miles ?

I would urge anyone thinking about aggresively tuning a 325d, to trade the car in for a 330/335d as it`ll not only be cheaper overall but yuo`ll see much greater results. This was part of the reason I binned mine off, A 320d in a high state of tune, was just as quick all the way to 140.

Last edited by mikem; 11-16-2007 at 11:56 AM.
mikem is offline  
Appreciate 0
Reply With Quote
      11-17-2007, 02:38 AM   #14
Ulrikgm
0
Private
 
Drives: 525d E61 LCI msport
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Denmark

Posts: 99
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulrikgm

Whatever you say - but Hartge and ESS are doing it so I willtrust them instead. It is very close to being the same engine as found in the 330d even the gearbox is the same. I think BMW are saying that the 330d has variable turbo geometry and the 325d does not but I am starting to doubt that.

http://www.esstuning.com/default.asp...&subcat2=265&i d=

http://www.hartge.de/e/bmw_motor_4344.html

Ulrik.





Your link to ESS shows exactly what I said, theirs is running at 238 PS.
Trust who you want lad, I spent 11 hrs in a tuning shop with my 325d, trying all sorts of different settings, it wont go anymore than 240 without over stressing things. This is the same reason why the 118d can`t be tuned to produce the same power as a mapped 120d. The turbos are much smaller, so only so much extra air can be added. Sure you can over fuel it to fuck and with a particle filter you wont get any smoke, but what happens when your PF dies at 20K miles ?

I would urge anyone thinking about aggresively tuning a 325d, to trade the car in for a 330/335d as it`ll not only be cheaper overall but yuo`ll see much greater results. This was part of the reason I binned mine off, A 320d in a high state of tune, was just as quick all the way to 140.
[/quote]

My link To ESS shows 274 DIN crank hp calculated with a 15% drive train loss.

The Hartge link clearly shows two levels of tune. one at 231hp at the crank and one at 271hp at the crank. That is about it.

The original number given by BMW is not whp it is supposed to be measured at the crank and that number should be 197 crank hp which again should be equal to 172 wheel hp calculated on a 15% drive train loss.


Ulrik
Ulrikgm is offline  
Appreciate 0
Reply With Quote
      11-17-2007, 07:53 AM   #15
steph.uk
1
325D E92
 
steph.uk's Avatar
 
Drives: 325D Coupe M Sport
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: SCOTLAND

Posts: 164
iTrader: (0)

Difficult one!

Got a 325d and choose it over the 320d only because it is a 6 cylinder. More refined...and so on

Although, BMW has made some progress on 4 cylinder engines, they still better at doing 6 pots

Finally, the current 325d energy efficient is the only 6 cylinder with such a low Co2 rate at 155. for 197 bhp it is quite good though!

I think in the future BMW will increase the BHP of the 325d to make the gap even deeper between the 320 / 323.

Steph
steph.uk is offline   Scotland
Appreciate 0
Reply With Quote
      11-17-2007, 09:20 AM   #16
mikem
15
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Drives: Z4M
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Somewhere

Posts: 1,549
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulrikgm View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulrikgm

Whatever you say - but Hartge and ESS are doing it so I willtrust them instead. It is very close to being the same engine as found in the 330d even the gearbox is the same. I think BMW are saying that the 330d has variable turbo geometry and the 325d does not but I am starting to doubt that.

http://www.esstuning.com/default.asp...&subcat2=265&i d=

http://www.hartge.de/e/bmw_motor_4344.html

Ulrik.







Your link to ESS shows exactly what I said, theirs is running at 238 PS.
Trust who you want lad, I spent 11 hrs in a tuning shop with my 325d, trying all sorts of different settings, it wont go anymore than 240 without over stressing things. This is the same reason why the 118d can`t be tuned to produce the same power as a mapped 120d. The turbos are much smaller, so only so much extra air can be added. Sure you can over fuel it to fuck and with a particle filter you wont get any smoke, but what happens when your PF dies at 20K miles ?

I would urge anyone thinking about aggresively tuning a 325d, to trade the car in for a 330/335d as it`ll not only be cheaper overall but yuo`ll see much greater results. This was part of the reason I binned mine off, A 320d in a high state of tune, was just as quick all the way to 140.
My link To ESS shows 274 DIN crank hp calculated with a 15% drive train loss.

The Hartge link clearly shows two levels of tune. one at 231hp at the crank and one at 271hp at the crank. That is about it.

The original number given by BMW is not whp it is supposed to be measured at the crank and that number should be 197 crank hp which again should be equal to 172 wheel hp calculated on a 15% drive train loss.


Ulrik[/quote]

The Hartge link has a misprint on it, both show the same product code.

The 325d will not make 270 hp without a bigger turbo.



Steph, I think you`ve hit the nail on the head with increased power figures.
mikem is offline  
Appreciate 0
Reply With Quote
      11-17-2007, 09:47 AM   #17
remmib
263
General
 
remmib's Avatar
 
Drives: 2013 F10 520d M-Sport
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Norway

Posts: 26,215
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikem View Post
The Hartge link has a misprint on it, both show the same product code.

The 325d will not make 270 hp without a bigger turbo.



Steph, I think you`ve hit the nail on the head with increased power figures.
What misprint??

12 30 0197 G: 197hp to 271hp
12 25 0197 G: 197hp to 231hp
__________________

F10 520d M-Sport Alpine White | HRE P43SC 20x9+20x11 | Michelin PSS 255/35+295/30 | KW V3 Coilover | M5 Front Sway Bar + M550d Rear Sway Bar | 3D Design Front Lip | BMW M Performance CF Spoiler | BMW M Performance Diffuser | BMW M Performance Black Grills | BMW M Performance Pedals |
remmib is offline   Norway
Appreciate 0
Reply With Quote
      11-20-2007, 11:49 AM   #18
Ulrikgm
0
Private
 
Drives: 525d E61 LCI msport
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Denmark

Posts: 99
iTrader: (0)

Hartge just wrote back to me and confirmed that they can chip tune the 325d to 271bhp/591NM.

I think that concludes the discussion about what is possible when chip tuning this car even though I must admit that I am also surprised that it is possible to take it that fare. It should however not be a problem because the 325d and the 330d uses the same gearbox as fare as I remember (manual - I am not certain about the auto) and they are rated to 600NM.

Further I tell you there is a guy on the forum that had his 325d tuned by ESS. If he would care "chip" in feel free to do so.......

Ulrik
Ulrikgm is offline  
Appreciate 0
Reply With Quote
      11-20-2007, 11:51 AM   #19
dxb335d
292
The Tarmac Terrorist
 
dxb335d's Avatar
 
Drives: E46 M3 CS
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: ''Fandango Towers''

Posts: 29,285
iTrader: (3)

Garage List
Wonder what the hell Hartge could get out of the 335d then?
__________________
M3 gone .... But I now have a M3 CS
dxb335d is offline   England
Appreciate 0
Reply With Quote
      11-20-2007, 12:23 PM   #20
Ulrikgm
0
Private
 
Drives: 525d E61 LCI msport
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Denmark

Posts: 99
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dxb335d View Post
Wonder what the hell Hartge could get out of the 335d then?
http://www.hartge.de/UploadPDF/E92%2...2012350286.pdf

It seems that the 325d is the very well suited for chip tuning.
Ulrikgm is offline  
Appreciate 0
Reply With Quote
      11-20-2007, 12:25 PM   #21
mikem
15
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Drives: Z4M
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Somewhere

Posts: 1,549
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dxb335d View Post
Wonder what the hell Hartge could get out of the 335d then?
Melted G`box and and dismounted rear sub-frame.

Ulrikgm, if thats right then things have really moved on since mine was mapped by DMS last Dec, then again in Feb. It was their programmer who warned me that taking it further would sacrifice longevity. I don`t know anything about engine internals but I do know the 325 and 330 both have variable geometry turbos but have different part No`s for the engine, cyl. heads and clutches as I looked into this last year.
mikem is offline  
Appreciate 0
Reply With Quote
      11-20-2007, 12:53 PM   #22
dxb335d
292
The Tarmac Terrorist
 
dxb335d's Avatar
 
Drives: E46 M3 CS
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: ''Fandango Towers''

Posts: 29,285
iTrader: (3)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikem View Post
Melted G`box and and dismounted rear sub-frame.

Ulrikgm, if thats right then things have really moved on since mine was mapped by DMS last Dec, then again in Feb. It was their programmer who warned me that taking it further would sacrifice longevity. I don`t know anything about engine internals but I do know the 325 and 330 both have variable geometry turbos but have different part No`s for the engine, cyl. heads and clutches as I looked into this last year.
Mikem the 335d hater

What on a normal re-map? you rekon so?
__________________
M3 gone .... But I now have a M3 CS
dxb335d is offline   England
Appreciate 0
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:48 AM.




e90post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST